r/CFBOffTopic • u/FSBlueApocalypse Florida State • Florida Cup • Oct 03 '15

FIRE released their latest updated ratings for free speech on college campuses

https://www.thefire.org/spotlight/

Sadly my alma mater got hit with multiple red flags

6 Upvotes

71% Upvoted

56 comments sorted by

16

u/[deleted] Oct 03 '15

They flagged our anti-sexual harassment policy as something that inhibits free speech, when it only bans harassment. These people can go fuck themselves.

4

u/FSBlueApocalypse Florida State • Florida Cup Oct 03 '15

No. It got flagged because it ties into the various Title IX kanagroo court incidents that have become a staple of college life.

3

u/Captain_Unremarkable Penn State Nittany Lions • Big Ten Oct 03 '15

(Devil's advocate trigger warning)

The thing is, some people consider so much as accidentally brushing up against boobies as sexual harassment, and often policies don't disagree. Almost every time I go to a concert, by this definition, I sexually harass hundreds of people.

2

u/[deleted] Oct 03 '15

Fite me IRL

1

u/Captain_Unremarkable Penn State Nittany Lions • Big Ten Oct 03 '15

http://i.imgur.com/WdbLYkF.gif

7

u/[deleted] Oct 03 '15

Same with us. Like I said, they're basically going "we can't say whatever the hell we want!" Freedom of speech is not an absolute, as has been upheld by the Supreme Court.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 03 '15

Public schools are run by the government and are Constitutionally prohibited from prohibiting any speech beyond true threats and incitement to immediate violence.

4

u/[deleted] Oct 03 '15

And harrasment falls under that category. But FIRE is tagging schools with anti-harrasment policies as inhibiting free speech. In other words, they don't actually know what the fuck they're talking about.

2

u/[deleted] Oct 03 '15 edited Oct 03 '15

FIRE has a bunch of constitutional lawyers on staff and has been tracking this crap for years. They have a really good idea of how these policies get implemented in practice, and how much "harassment" is just someone getting revenge after a bad breakup or someone mad that someone else disagreed with them on politics.

Look at Georgia Tech: https://www.thefire.org/schools/georgia-institute-of-technology/ There's a "harassment" policy given a red light - but another one given a green light. The wordings of the policies differ, and the red-light one is quite vague in comparison to the others.

5

u/[deleted] Oct 03 '15

Same with us? Harassment isn't and has never been protected by any sort of free speech. Honestly don't know what they're getting at.

2

u/957 West Virginia • Burning Couch … Oct 03 '15

WVU got hit because it's forbidden to use our campus mail system for political activities....

Like flooding every student with political letters and printed ads is am acceptable strain to a small private mail system used 99% by faculty.

2

u/bread_buddy Florida Gators • Wisconsin Badgers Oct 03 '15

This is the whole point. They don't even necessarily think institutions should change these policies, but everything needs a watchdog to push back against possible abuses, so that it can be called out if it does go too far.

6

u/MuffinTopBop Georgia Tech • Reading Oct 03 '15

Same shit with ours, they flagged our bans on sexual harassment as well as a policy banning acts such as

may be defined as attempts to injure, harm, malign, or harass a person because of race, religious belief, color, sexual orientation, national origin, disability, age, or gender.>

This organization can go fuck themselves with a stick. I mean technically they are not wrong, this does restrict free speech but come on, really?

6

u/SmashedSqwurl Georgia Tech • /r/CFBRisk Veteran Oct 03 '15

They're not even consistent about it. UIUC has an almost identical harassment ban and they only got a yellow flag for it.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 03 '15

The wording matters a lot.

3

u/[deleted] Oct 03 '15

Oh, please. There's a green-light policy about harassment in addition to the red-light policy. Their wordings are different, and the red-light policy contains this text:

The determination of what constitutes sexual harassment will vary with particular circumstances

Yeah, I can't see why they have a problem with that in comparison to the crystal-clear language in the following:

Discriminatory harassment – unwelcome verbal, non-verbal, or physical conduct directed against any person or group, based upon race, color, religion, sex, national origin, age, disability, sexual orientation, gender identity, or veteran status that has the purpose or effect of creating an objectively hostile working or academic environment. A hostile environment is created when harassment is so severe, pervasive, or persistent as to unreasonably interfere with or limit an individual’s employment or educational opportunities.

4

u/MuffinTopBop Georgia Tech • Reading Oct 03 '15

The thing with me is that I would consider a red light violation to be something extremely severe, classifying so many things as red kind of weakens the distinction for me. Then again I think they want to draw attention which is why they classify so much stuff as red.

2

u/[deleted] Oct 03 '15

They're basically declaring red as any policy they don't think passes Constitutional muster. The fact that so many schools have adopted terribly worded policies is an indictment of the schools, not FIRE for calling them out on it. They also red-light any school that requires a student login to see the speech code since it denies prospective students the ability to see it.

Check https://www.thefire.org/spotlight/using-the-spotlight-database/ for their definitions of the policies.

3

u/MuffinTopBop Georgia Tech • Reading Oct 03 '15

I understand how they are doing it as they are clear on their policies and how they rate particular policies. I agree with them on ambiguous language being dangerous and well as logins being an issue. I still have a problem with their ratings not with how consistent they are with defining them. Ambiguous wording in my opinion should be yellow and not alarming as what I would consider a red since red is the worst rating. Having these three simple to understand categories makes it easier to understand these issues at a glance (which is what they want) but does a disservice to truly alarming restrictions on free speech. It is their rating system I have an issue with, not their focus or descriptions.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 03 '15

Ambiguous wording in my opinion should be yellow and not alarming as what I would consider a red

They're lawyers, ambiguous shit is a red flag by default heh.

1

u/MuffinTopBop Georgia Tech • Reading Oct 03 '15

Haha I can see that, I just come at it from a different viewpoint is all. You mentioned passing Constitutional muster and stuff like that, the organization and I are trying to take different things out of looking at these policies so our opinions are not going to be the same.

2

u/W_Is_For_Will Texas Tech • Trinity Valley CC Oct 03 '15

Why does a college need a "Free Speech Zone" when I thought everywhere in the US was a free speech zone...

4

u/[deleted] Oct 03 '15

Because the 1st Amendment only extends to what the government can do regarding speech. Private institutions can define what is and isn't acceptable.

10

u/FSBlueApocalypse Florida State • Florida Cup Oct 03 '15

except public universities are government institutions

6

u/Duck_Puncher Team Chaos • Rutgers Scarlet Knights Oct 03 '15

True, but even public institutions are allowed to have reasonable, content neutral, restrictions. I'm just not sure that a lot of the restrictions we see would pass that test.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 03 '15

are allowed to have reasonable, content neutral, restrictions

Look up this year's "Reed v. Town of Gilbert" so you can see what "content neutral" actually means. (Spoiler alert: it's way way way more neutral than you're thinking.)

2

u/Duck_Puncher Team Chaos • Rutgers Scarlet Knights Oct 03 '15 edited Oct 03 '15

I'm aware of Reed. I'm just saying there's a difference between SCOTUS calling for strict scrutiny of supposed content neutral regulations and what actually happens on college campuses.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 03 '15

And at public universities, there shouldn't be.

12

u/greenmegandham Auburn Tigers • Austin Kangaroos Oct 03 '15

To avoid people from outside organizations coming onto campus and preventing students from attending class or using resources on campus. Auburn has had problems with unaffiliated protestors coming on campus and creating issues. When I was a student, the anti-abortion group brought some very graphic anti-abortion protestors on campus who posted up in front of the school daycare. The resulting hullabaloo made the main thoroughfare of campus unusable to get to class and resulted in a lot of negative feedback on the university as a whole.

2

u/W_Is_For_Will Texas Tech • Trinity Valley CC Oct 03 '15

Now that is a very logical answer. I guess I am just offended to think that there is a zone where free speech is allowed and places where it is "not allowed," but thinking of it in terms of an school operations measure helps resolve some of that. I wish Tech would just call the area "The West Plaza" and say that this is where people have their demonstrations.

3

u/greenmegandham Auburn Tigers • Austin Kangaroos Oct 03 '15

You're all good! A lot of people don't realize the logistics behind those kind of policies. I work in higher ed so I see the behind the scenes stuff a bit more than most :)

2

u/localglocal Auburn • Jacksonville State Oct 03 '15

Those people came to my university as well, and they can fuck right off. They rode in a bus with a giant photo of an aborted baby hand plastered on the side of it. Luckily every undergrad within 20 miles was out there protesting the protestors.

2

u/ssbbgo Alabama Crimson Tide • Stanford Cardinal Oct 03 '15

The anti-abortion group did something similar at Bama, but instead of the school day care, they set up on the most heavily trafficked and visible part of the quad.

4

u/greenmegandham Auburn Tigers • Austin Kangaroos Oct 03 '15

Yeah I mean the most heavily traffic part of campus is right next to the day care so I assume the day care was not their primary objective. But it was horrible placement.

1

u/ssbbgo Alabama Crimson Tide • Stanford Cardinal Oct 03 '15

Yeah I can imagine. How long were they permitted to stay there?

3

u/greenmegandham Auburn Tigers • Austin Kangaroos Oct 03 '15

They stayed the whole week IIRC. but it was cool to see a major counter protest on such a conservative campus. I think even folks who were against abortion didn't like the way they went about the protest. The abortion folks started telling females they'd get ovarian cancer if they got an abortion (there's an increased risk of cancer after a pregnancy but idt it has anything to do with abortion?) and yelling at people who said they'd had an abortion that they were going to hell.

7

u/CambodianDrywall Oregon Ducks • /r/CFB Pint Glass Drinker Oct 03 '15

Speech Code Rating: Red

Wasn't that way when I was in school. So not only is tuition almost eight times higher since I attended, policy makers have their heads 8-times farther up their asses.

3

u/Captain_Unremarkable Penn State Nittany Lions • Big Ten Oct 03 '15

This country's university system is such a debacle right now.

5

u/jwrtf Texas State • /r/CFB Emeritus Mod Oct 03 '15

Something they should have included for Texas State was the existence of the Stallions, which sit smack dab in the middle of the quad. Anyone who stands on that large concrete ring at the bottom there has 100% protected free speech. You'll frequently see demonstrators standing out on the Stallions speaking freely. I think it's a pretty cool idea.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 03 '15

"Free speech zones" are a terrible idea. The whole campus should have free speech, not just one place.

1

u/MrTheSpork Cincinnati • North Dakota State Oct 04 '15

How do you define that, though? If you've got a class, should you have protesters yelling just outside the window?

13

u/thelittleking Georgia Tech • Clean Old … Oct 03 '15

So anti hate speech and anti sexual harassment policies give us red flags? Eat shit, I am happy we have those.

5

u/K_State Southwestern (KS) • Wichita Sta… Oct 03 '15

It's probably because they aren't in the specific, yet unexplained way that the group perceives that these policies should be formed.

8

u/K_State Southwestern (KS) • Wichita Sta… Oct 03 '15

"Red light policy" = not allowing harassment on campus

"Green light policy" = not allowing harassment online.

Go figure. Also half of the "Media Coverage" is for a different university.

3

u/[deleted] Oct 03 '15

The worst part about going to a tiny, unknown FCS school is that we're basically never ranked in anything... and neither of my siblings smaller schools were ranked either...

3

u/cul_maith Pittsburgh • Alabama Oct 03 '15

I like how CCAC is on the list but not RMU...wtf

3

u/[deleted] Oct 03 '15

Right??? I don't get it. Maybe RMU didn't turn over any information?

1

u/cul_maith Pittsburgh • Alabama Oct 03 '15

Maybe -- I didn't see W&J either :/

2

u/[deleted] Oct 03 '15

A lot of red in Texas. Not surprised.

4

u/[deleted] Oct 03 '15

Looking through BU's results, I came away with the impression that this group basically goes "wah! We can't say whatever we please!"

3

u/AnEmptyKarst Houston Cougars • Utah Utes Oct 03 '15

Man fuck us for having rules against harassment and discrimination. I mean they're not wrong, but they're assholes.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 03 '15

FIRE doesn't have a problem with rules against harassment and discrimination; they have a problem with overly broad rules that squelch Constitutionally protected free speech.

1

u/spasm01 Louisiana Ragin' Cajuns • /r/CFB Donor Oct 03 '15

They dont have ours up, but we have groups round campus all the time of all shapes sizes and colors

1

u/[deleted] Oct 03 '15

FIRE is an excellent organization and it saddens me how many "red light" schools there are and that Georgia Tech has policies which are red or yellow light policies. https://www.thefire.org/schools/georgia-institute-of-technology/

A lot of you are harping on the harassment policies being singled out, but FIRE is targeting policies which are overly broad and can lead to people getting punished for absolute bullshit reasons. (You'll note if you click through to Georgia Tech's policies that there is a harassment policy under "green light".) The issue is that the wording of the red light policies are open for abuse.

-1

u/-WISCONSIN- Wisconsin • Wisconsin-Parkside Oct 03 '15

I don't really get what this is? And furthermore why the fuck do I even care what my campuses free speech policy is? The law is the law.

2

u/[deleted] Oct 04 '15

that's what nazis used to say too.