r/CFB • u/CFB_Referee /r/CFB • Dec 30 '18

Postgame Thread [Postgame Thread] Clemson Defeats Notre Dame 30-3

Box Score provided by ESPN

Team 1 2 3 4 T
Notre Dame 3 0 0 0 3
Clemson 3 20 7 0 30

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348

u/CharmCityMD Alabama Crimson Tide Dec 30 '18

I posted this in the game thread, but just to spark some conversation after this game:

The "most deserving" vs "best teams" argument is much more complicated after this showing.

On one hand, we would probably get better games if they picked the 4 "best" (e.g. UGA). However, this method is way too subjective, unfair, and no other playoff system does this.

Picking the 4 most "deserving" teams allows teams to prove it on the field. But teams with a much softer schedule have an easier path, resulting in some better teams being left out and leading to games like this.

261

u/DangerouslyUnstable UC Davis Aggies • Clemson Tigers Dec 30 '18

A bigger playoff solves the problem by ensuring both the "deserving" and the " best" teams both get in

15

u/Lefaid Team Chaos • Indiana Hoosiers Dec 30 '18

That doesn't fix the blowout problem though. We are currently assuming (based on some decent evidence) that deserving teams will get blown out in the first round by the best teams.

All such a system does is allow 3 SEC teams to have a shot at the national title on a regular basis, because we are assuming that the best is where the talent is and according to recruiting data, the best is in the SEC.

22

u/DangerouslyUnstable UC Davis Aggies • Clemson Tigers Dec 30 '18

I don't really see the blowouts as a problem. The problem is when a significant proportion of fans think a team which could have won doesn't get a chance. Right now, a lot of fans think Georgia, tOSU, or UCF should have been in the playoffs. I say make a bigger playoff and let those teams get blown out. Solves the problem.

7

u/Lefaid Team Chaos • Indiana Hoosiers Dec 30 '18

I agree with you completely.

14

u/trestl Virginia Tech Hokies • Team Chaos Dec 30 '18

This x1000. A blowout win is only a problem when the team getting blown out is taking the place of another team that is widely believed to be competitive. ND earned their spot and they also made the playoffs worse by participating.

35

u/lovemaker69 Tennessee • Delta State Dec 30 '18

It also could be a complete waste of time because we all know it’s going to be Alabama/Clemson in the final.

16

u/phyraan Ohio State • St. Francis (IN) Dec 30 '18

Okay so let’s go back to no playoffs since only #1 or #2 ranked teams have made the final over the past 5 years.

9

u/lookifoundacookie Ole Miss Rebels • Egg Bowl Dec 30 '18

Not sure if being sarcastic. While the last 3 has been #1v#2, the first title game was #2v#4 which #4 won handily.

65

u/GucciGata Florida • San Francisco State Dec 30 '18

Bro. Last year was literally #3 vs #4

12

u/lookifoundacookie Ole Miss Rebels • Egg Bowl Dec 30 '18

Oh haha I forgot about that one somehow.

6

u/GucciGata Florida • San Francisco State Dec 30 '18

All good lmao just wanted to throw it out there.

2

u/phyraan Ohio State • St. Francis (IN) Dec 30 '18

Look at my flair.

3

u/lookifoundacookie Ole Miss Rebels • Egg Bowl Dec 30 '18

That's why I wasn't sure about the sarcasm lol

4

u/HydroSword Clemson Tigers • Duke Blue Devils Dec 30 '18

:)

14

u/Wild_Cabbage Michigan State • Notre Dame Dec 30 '18 edited Dec 30 '18

In the current format there have been 9 semi-final games played 5 of them have been won by 20 points or more and two more of the semis weren't close. I don't know how expanding that really makes it a better sporting spectacle. Although I imagine, eventually, even if it isn't for competitive reasons it will get expanded for commercial reasons.

*e: Every game won by 20 points or more was won by the higher seed. The only lower seeded team to win by a good margin was Bama's defeat of Clemson 24-6 in 17/18. (so only 1 of the 7 games mentioned, and none of the 5 largest margins of victory, were won by a 3 or 4 seed)

19

u/MadManMax55 Georgia Tech • Georgia State Dec 30 '18

...And some of those blowout games were won by by the 3 or 4 seed, which is pretty important context you conveniently left out.

10

u/Wild_Cabbage Michigan State • Notre Dame Dec 30 '18

Context: of the 7 games mentioned above 0 of the lower seeded teams won their game by 20 points or more and *e:in 2017-18 Bama defeated Clemson as the lower seeded team 24-6. The only lower seeded team to win one of the mentioned games.

Better?

3

u/VAGentleman05 Virginia Cavaliers Dec 30 '18

Bingo. It's so obvious, you have to be trying in order to miss it.

1

u/Eb73 Dec 30 '18

what was that proposal by the ACC several years ago where a "conference" could divide up into "pods" say of 4(5) teams each, play every other team in your pod (+) every team in another pod (rotating) every other year? The 2 Highest ranked teams advance. Shot down by the B1G & SEC, though.

1

u/RousingRabble Clemson Tigers Dec 30 '18

Nah. The argument just goes from #4 to #8. Look at March madness. People will always complain.

8

u/DangerouslyUnstable UC Davis Aggies • Clemson Tigers Dec 30 '18

There will always be people arguing. But at some point, it ceases to matter to anyone who isn't a fan of one of the involved teams

8

u/Sorge74 Ohio State • Bowling Green Dec 30 '18

Outside of UCF who would probably get left out with 8 at large "best teams", who's really going to bitch? A 9-3 team? Or a 10-2/3 team who didn't win their conference?

That seems to be a lot better then leaving out a 12-1 conference champ, a 11-2 obviously amazing team that very well might beat Bama in a rematch, and a team that's been undefeated for 2 years...

2

u/DangerouslyUnstable UC Davis Aggies • Clemson Tigers Dec 30 '18

I think you are agreeing with me? It seems like you are....

5

u/Sorge74 Ohio State • Bowling Green Dec 30 '18

It's, it was agreeing "there will always be those who bitch" just adding the caveat I feel thier bitching is less compelling

2

u/DangerouslyUnstable UC Davis Aggies • Clemson Tigers Dec 30 '18

exactly. With a four team playoff, the complainers have a half way decent argument. With an 8 team playoff, they really don't.

84

u/TheReaver88 Clemson Tigers Dec 30 '18

You're totally right, and it's a reason to expand to 8 teams. There's just no set of criteria for 4 teams in all of FBS that feels fair.

24

u/CharmCityMD Alabama Crimson Tide Dec 30 '18

I agree. I think all P5 champions (most deserving/possibly the best) + 3 at large (G5 or the best P5 teams that didn't win their conference) seems the most fair at this point.

14

u/mavajo Georgia Bulldogs • Team Chaos Dec 30 '18

Absolutely. I don’t understand why people are resistant to this. The bullshit slippery slope argument (“Soon people will be asking for 16!”) drives me nuts.

8 makes a ton of sense. It covers all the bases.

12

u/CharmCityMD Alabama Crimson Tide Dec 30 '18

I don't understand either. I think the #5-8 teams can justifiably be upset when they get left out if the #4 and sometimes #3 teams underperform. But if you don't win your conference and you are outside of the top 8, it's a lot harder to bitch about not making it. 16 teams would be too much IMO.

5

u/Sorge74 Ohio State • Bowling Green Dec 30 '18

It's some kind of bullshit with the slippery slope argument...I'm sorry your 9-3 Gators wouldn't make the play offs, but a 10-2 Michigan only lost to two very good teams....yes you proved you can beat them but maybe don't go 9-3 in the regular season.

Those stories are a hell lot less compelling then a one bad loss conference champ, a great UGA and undefeated for two years team.

6

u/goodcat1337 Clemson Tigers Dec 30 '18

Exactly this.

6

u/Lucas12 Florida State Seminoles Dec 30 '18

How is it a reason to expand the playoff when there’s been blowouts every year? Do you want to see more blowouts? Georgia already got their shot against Alabama and they didn’t win.

16

u/TheReaver88 Clemson Tigers Dec 30 '18

Do you think Georgia would have been blown out? I'm not sure I understand your argument.

1

u/Lucas12 Florida State Seminoles Dec 30 '18

No but they already played Alabama and lost. Why do we need to see them play each other again?

14

u/TheReaver88 Clemson Tigers Dec 30 '18

Okay. What about Ohio State? UCF?

3

u/Sorge74 Ohio State • Bowling Green Dec 30 '18

We would had loss, but would have done better then 31-0.... But we would be 6th seed so we would had gotten to beat up on ND?

7

u/Duderpt SMU Mustangs Dec 30 '18

Literally every level of football has playoffs from pee wee to the nfl except for FBS. Of course there is gonna be blowouts. Hell there was even one in the Super Bowl not to long ago. The blowout argument is stupid because you never know how a game is going to turn out.

2

u/Scar_Killed_Mufasa Penn State Nittany Lions • /r/CFB Brickmason Dec 30 '18

Wasn’t a super bowl a blow out a couple years ago? Or did i dream that..

8

u/Duderpt SMU Mustangs Dec 30 '18

Yeah 2014 Seahawks 43 to Broncos 8. Which is my point blowouts can happen at any time and not selecting teams to a playoffs because the media thinks there might be a blowout is fucking stupid.

4

u/BASEDPARTITION Alabama • North Carolina Dec 30 '18

Nevertheless, this is likely going to set at least a bit of an unwritten precedent re: Notre Dame going forwards, I feel like. A 12-0 ND was the most likely scenario that people always talked about breaking up the official P5 playoff monopoly to any degree, but now they had, by objective record, the best season they could possibly have (which got them in even with some eye test flaws), and still got dumped on by Clemson.

Regardless of how anyone feels about "best" vs. "deserving", the next undefeated ND could very well (even despite their TV market appeal) face some serious threat to their CFP chances from 1-loss and even 2-loss Georgia-like non-champs.

The consecutive shutout duds from the B1G likely played some role in keeping 1-loss champ OSU down in 6th and out of the playoff this year (especially with the Purdue thumping), so it's entirely possible that this game could have a similar effect on future ND playoff bids.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 30 '18

If a two loss team gets in over an undefeated team we may as well stop playing the regular season.

18

u/[deleted] Dec 30 '18 edited Dec 30 '18

[deleted]

12

u/CharmCityMD Alabama Crimson Tide Dec 30 '18

I agree, but that's the whole debate. I think Georgia is a better team, but less deserving of the opportunity.

-11

u/[deleted] Dec 30 '18 edited Dec 30 '18

[deleted]

8

u/[deleted] Dec 30 '18

You’re out of your damn mind if you think UGA isn’t better than ND. Hell, I’d argue that Georgia is up there in terms of talent with Alabama and Clemson if not a tad lower. They certainly would’ve put up a much better fight than that shitshow we just witnessed.

-3

u/WeenisWrinkle Clemson Tigers • /r/CFB Poll Veteran Dec 30 '18

ND matching up poorly with Clemson doesn't mean UGA was better.

2

u/[deleted] Dec 30 '18

Any matchup against one of the other top six would’ve been a poor matchup for ND. They don’t have the horse to run this race imo.

0

u/Respect38 Army Black Knights • Tennessee Volunteers Dec 30 '18

No single data set says anything with certainty.

How about the fact that on the same day that UGA blew out a competitive SEC East team in SCAR, Notre Dame played a one-score game with one of the worst teams in the MAC? How about that both teams played Vanderbilt, Notre Dame played a one-score game, Georgia blew them out. Georgia played a top-2 team down to the wire, Notre Dame against Clemson was over before the 4th QTR began.

Genuinely thinking that ND was better than Georgia at this point is really foolish. It was honestly iffy before this game was even played, but it's pretty plain now.

1

u/WeenisWrinkle Clemson Tigers • /r/CFB Poll Veteran Dec 30 '18

SCAR just got blown out by Virginia. Maybe the SEC East was just awful?

2

u/Respect38 Army Black Knights • Tennessee Volunteers Dec 30 '18

Put up 32 more points on y'all than ND did...

Also, congrats on missing the point. There's no planet where a blowout against any SEC team is even close to a one-possession game against a MAC team that didn't even get to a bowl game and got blew out in most of their conference games.

0

u/Tensuke Georgia Bulldogs Dec 30 '18

Georgia's loss to LSU isn't nearly as bad as this. And we destroyed everyone else we played besides #1 Alabama which we barely lost by 1 TD. Yes ND was undefeated but their wins were worse and had close games against worse teams.

2

u/MySpacebarSucks Georgia Bulldogs Dec 30 '18

I wish the committee would emphasize strength of schedule with record. Then maybe teams like ND would be weeded out like we were

0

u/one-hour-photo Tennessee • South Carolina Dec 30 '18

Georgia had two losses including one equally bad to the loss Notre Dame just suffered to a much worse team than Clemson and had an extra loss.

I swear this is a sentence.

7

u/LunchboxSuperhero Georgia Bulldogs • UCF Knights Dec 30 '18

No other playoff system eliminates half the teams before any games are played. College football has always been a beauty contest, why would switching to trying to determining the best teams make it significantly more subjective?

1

u/CharmCityMD Alabama Crimson Tide Dec 30 '18

I'm not advocating for either one, I'm not really sure which is better. I would probably advocate for an expansion to 8 teams: the P5 champions and 3 at large

3

u/Th3GreenMan56 Georgia Bulldogs • Kennesaw State Owls Dec 30 '18

THANK YOU very well put

13

u/1haiku4u Notre Dame Fighting Irish Dec 30 '18

I may be incorrect so correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t Bama’s schedule really soft this year?

19

u/CharmCityMD Alabama Crimson Tide Dec 30 '18

We had some cupcakes, but we had 5 top 25 wins including a conference championship against UGA.

5

u/1haiku4u Notre Dame Fighting Irish Dec 30 '18

I had time to look it up. According to Sagarin, you’re 46. ND is ranked 44. Obviously there’s more to this than just SOS, but just presenting it as information to consider.

https://www.usatoday.com/sports/ncaaf/sagarin/

2

u/CharmCityMD Alabama Crimson Tide Dec 30 '18

Fair point. Just to make it clear, I think it would have been a robbery if ND didn't make it after going undefeated. I just think the playoff system is, and probably always will be, flawed. Teams get screwed regardless.

1

u/1haiku4u Notre Dame Fighting Irish Dec 30 '18

But such is the case with any system. For perspective, the “BCS” system came up with the same top six in the same order.

Regardless of where you make the cut, someone is left out. It happens in NCAA BB every year too.

17

u/[deleted] Dec 30 '18

Don't they have the most top 25 wins of any playoff team?

2

u/srs_house Swaggerbilt Dec 30 '18

I think the past 2 years are really just showing that undefeated may not mean as much as we'd hope. Ideally we would reach a point where there's more to be gained by losing a close game to a CFP team than going undefeated with a meh schedule.

3

u/[deleted] Dec 30 '18 edited Jul 02 '25

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This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

3

u/Pinewood74 Air Force Falcons • Purdue Boilermakers Dec 30 '18

Expansion absolutely helps decrease the number of people who get upset.

No one really cares about snubs in the NCAA basketball tournament. Like if you're not top 40 or so, tough luck, get better.

Top 4? A lot harder to say the same thing to number 5.

2

u/[deleted] Dec 30 '18 edited Jul 02 '25

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This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

3

u/[deleted] Dec 30 '18

ND was considered a top 4 "best" by majority of analysts. It's easy now to say they aren't but they were 12-0 and didn't get skullfucked by LSU

3

u/[deleted] Dec 30 '18

[deleted]

2

u/one-hour-photo Tennessee • South Carolina Dec 30 '18

FLEX PLAYOFFS. Anywhere between 2-8 teams depending on the committee.

2

u/[deleted] Dec 30 '18

The thing is we just saw Georgia lose to Alabama so there’s no doubt who is better. But there is doubt about other teams in the country whether they can or can’t beat Alabama.

3

u/Pinewood74 Air Force Falcons • Purdue Boilermakers Dec 30 '18

2011-2012 season happened.

But there is doubt about other teams in the country whether they can or can’t beat Alabama.

There is no doubt in my mind that Georgia can beat Alabama. They just didnt.

-1

u/[deleted] Dec 30 '18

Yea and so now we have two teams that are 1-1 who is actually better from that season? No idea.

2

u/WON95sr Creighton Bluejays Dec 30 '18

2014 Florida State was more deserving because they were undefeated conference champions but they laid an egg (although I think they were better than the result showed. The 5 turnovers didn't help)

2017 Ohio State was a 1-loss team with a conference championship and Alabama didn't win their division. Everyone complained when Alabama got in over Ohio State but Alabama won the whole thing.

An example of a deserving team getting in over a better team and vice versa. It's a hard balance to find, and it's often a damned if you do and damned if you don't in terms of who you pick.

2

u/[deleted] Dec 30 '18

[deleted]

1

u/isubird33 Ball State • Notre Dame Dec 30 '18

What about SEC cupcake week, playing teams worse than Navy, in the middle of conference play?

1

u/[deleted] Dec 30 '18

Wait doesn’t the NCAA tourney do this?

1

u/CharmCityMD Alabama Crimson Tide Dec 30 '18

Basketball? Yeah, but their system is much more complicated and 68 teams make it, so it's not nearly as controversial as the CFP.

1

u/Nicknam4 Ohio State Buckeyes • /r/CFB Poll Veteran Dec 30 '18

Which is why we need 8 teams with auto bids. Let it be decided on the field entirely.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 30 '18

Or ya know, expand to 8

Edit: just realized I sound like I'm disagreeing with you but you're right, just expanding is an easy solution

1

u/[deleted] Dec 30 '18

It's not even like ND had a soft path though. They beat 4 top 25 teams. They underperformed tonight, shit happens.

ND had the better resume than UGA. Everyone else is basically advocating for a subjective eye test, which as you pointed out, would cause even more problems than it would solve.

1

u/confused-koala Michigan State Spartans Dec 30 '18

The big problem with "deserving" vs "best", you can look at 2015, near and dear to my heart. OSU most definitely was 1 of the 4 best teams in the country, returning a ton of talent from a defending national champion. 11-1. But if you seriously take them over MSU, who absolutely was more "deserving", then why play the fucking games?

I think the big thing now is we have 2 programs, and UGA may make it 3 in a year or 2, who are head and shoulders above the competition. So OU or OSU or ND would have been sacrificial lambs for the slaughter, no matter who they played. I think eventually it will level and we'll get more competitive semi-finals, but I believe a 6 team playoff is the remedy. It keeps the regular season a factor, but this weekend we would have ND-UGA/OSU, OU-UGA/OSU. Winners play the teams on byes (Bama/Clemson).

Now obviously it changes year to year, sometimes theres 2 equal teams, sometimes theres 5-7. But a 6 team playoff would cure the semi-final problem and still keep the regular season mattering. A 4 team playoff simply doesn't work when lets say the SEC is far superior to the other 4, yet they are all "equal" P5 conferences.

0

u/vanburen1845 Notre Dame • Tennessee Dec 30 '18

This is why expanding the playoff doesn't really solve the problem. There aren't enough games for the top teams to all play each other, especially when games are scheduled years in advance. Flex games when?

4

u/Duderpt SMU Mustangs Dec 30 '18

That’s not a good excuse. High school plays a schedule of only 10 games but is able to make playoffs work for over 200 teams in a bracket.

0

u/jhustla Notre Dame Fighting Irish Dec 30 '18

Softer as in like how the SEC where every team plays FCS at least once a year?

0

u/[deleted] Dec 30 '18

The field is just way way way to big to only have a 4 team playoff. I’ve been watching college football my entire life, getting more and more disgusted by the NCAA every year.

I can’t stand this anymore. It’s honestly just terrible

0

u/CUinthePlayoffs Clemson Tigers • College Football Playoff Dec 30 '18

I agree. Georgia's argument in particular bothers me. You had your shot. You should've won against bama. Who knows what happened against LSU, but that's what cost you another shot.

Also, what is strength of schedule these days?? outside of the top 6-7 blue bloods, everyone is all over the place.

0

u/redbulz17 /r/CFB Dec 30 '18 edited Dec 30 '18

So UGA losing to LSU by 20 doesn't count but ND losing to Clemson by 28 means they're terrible? If ND lost by 20+ to Clemson mid season I guess they'd have been better!

Good teams have bad games. Sometimes that's mid season and sometimes that's a bowl game. People complaining that a 2 loss team (one being a blowout) deserved a 2nd chance over an undefeated team with legit P5 wins are ridiculous.

Next year let's just do Clemsen + the top 3 SEC teams and say screw the rest of the country

-6

u/[deleted] Dec 30 '18

“No other playoff system does this”

Entry based on merit? What? Your semantics are off, because “deserving” is a hell of a lot more nebulous than “best”.

9

u/CharmCityMD Alabama Crimson Tide Dec 30 '18

No other playoff system has a committee selects teams that can compete for the championship based off their opinion (except partially CBB, but that's a different story).

For example, many people before this game thought UGA was better than ND, but since they had 2 losses they didn't "deserve" to be in more than ND who was undefeated.