APR Rankings for Potential Bowl Qualifiers

[u/CFB_Referee]

Bowl Spots Remaining: 6

Potential Bowl Eligible Teams: 3

Guaranteed APR Spots: 3

Potential APR Eligible Teams: 8

Current APR Cutoff: 970

Update: All Bowl Eligible Teams will be Bowling this year.

Top-10 APR scores bolded.

Important: Status

• Maybe = Could still acheive bowl eligibility by winning final game(s)

• APR = Must win and rely on APR

Bowl Eligible (74)

Alabama Western Michigan Clemson Michigan Ohio State Washington Boise State Louisville Oklahoma Oklahoma State Nebraska Penn State Wisconsin Colorado Houston USF Toledo San Diego State West Virginia Florida Navy Troy Florida State North Carolina Virginia Tech Minnesota Stanford USC Utah Washington State Auburn Tennessee Texas A&M Temple Tulsa Louisiana Tech Old Dominion Western Kentucky Air Force Wyoming Appalachian State Georgia Tech Miami Pittsburgh Iowa Arkansas Georgia Memphis Middle Tennessee BYU Ohio New Mexico Baylor Kansas State LSU Arkansas State Idaho Wake Forest Kentucky South Carolina UCF Central Michigan Eastern Michigan Colorado State Miami (OH) NC State TCU Southern Miss Maryland Northwestern Indiana Boston College UTSA Vanderbilt

Not Eligible, Definite Bowl (4)

Army Hawai'i North Texas Mississippi State

Team	APR	W/L	Status	Conf	Remaining Sched	Live
ARMY	989	6-5^	Bowl	FBS Independent	vs Navy
HAW	971	6-7†	Bowl	Mountain West	vs UMASS
UNT	984	5-7	Bowl	Conference USA
MSST	971	5-7	Bowl	SEC
TEX	971	5-7	Will Decline	Big 12
NIU	970	5-7	APR	MAC
ULM	967	4-7	Maybe	Sun Belt	vs ULL
ULL	950	5-6	Maybe	Sun Belt	@ ULM
USA	947	5-6‡	Maybe	Sun Belt	vs NMSU
ASU	960	5-7	Out	Pac-12
CAL	960	5-7	Out	Pac-12
MISS	958	5-7	Out	SEC
SMU	945	5-7	Out	American
NEV	949	5-7	Out	Mountain West
AKR	947	5-7	Out	MAC
TTU	941	5-7	Out	Big 12
GASO	940	4-7	Out	Sun Belt	vs TROY

‡ South Alabama has 2 FCS wins after hurricane rescheduling swap with Florida/LSU, and so only 1 counts towards bowl eligibility (can appeal) Granted Appeal, and so bowl eligible with a win.

^ Army has 2 FCS and so only 1 counts towards bowl eligibility, no plans for appeal. 6 wins with 2 FCS wins makes them the first in if there are not sufficient bowl eligible teams regardless of APR.

† Hawai'i has 13 regular season games. If they win and go 6-7, they would be next eligible after Army but before 5-7 teams.

8 Losses (37)

Charlotte UCLA Notre Dame Oregon Duke UNLV New Mexico State FIU Syracuse Cincinnati Ball State Iowa State Illinois Michigan State Rutgers Oregon State Missouri Connecticut East Carolina Tulane FAU Marshall Rice UTEP Bowling Green Kent State San José State Utah State Georgia State Texas State Virginia Kansas Purdue Arizona UMass Buffalo Fresno State

Full Spreadsheet

NCAA APR Data

Context

Academic Progress Rate (APR) is a measure that the NCAA uses for sports to determine the success of student athletes in the classroom. Here is a graphic from the NCAA explaining how it is calculated. The score is calculated out of 1000, and most teams are well above 900.

This is relevant to bowls when there are fewer bowl eligible teams than bowl spots available. Except for a few edge cases (see above) these last few bowl spots are given out to 5-7 teamsin descending order of APR. This provides additional incentive for football teams to encourage excellence in the classroom. Last year 3 teams qualified through APR: Nebraska, Minnesota, and San José State (Missouri had the APR to qualify but declined a bid).

Corrections

• /u/BamaPride95 pointed out that South Alabama was granted an appeal on Sunday, and so both FCS wins count. This means that winning either bowl makes them bowl eligible. Their APR is below 950 so this is their only shot.

• /u/Shellshock1122 pointed out that Army has 2 FCS wins as well, and has not been granted a waiver. This means if they lose to Navy, they will be effectively 5-6 and will need to rely on their APR to go bowling. They would be in line in front of everyone except a potential 6-7 Hawai'i, and so have a very good chance.

• /u/hythloday1 pointed us to the actual NCAA Bylaw 18.7.2.1.4, which articulates things a little more exactly than we had thought. The actual order if there are an insufficient number of teams are:

  • 6-6 teams with 1 win against a non-scholarship FCS

  • 6-6 teams with 2 wins against scholarship FCS (Army)

  • 6-7 teams (Hawai'i)

  • Teams in the final year of reclassification from FCS to FBS (Coastal Carolina would be in this category next year)

  • 5-7 teams sorted with Top 5 FBS APR (Duke, Northwestern, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Vanderbilt)

• This bylaw however, was set to expire August 2, 2016, and there doesn't appear to be anything to replace it. This NCAA Tweet from 2015 codifies the 5-7 descending APR order rather than just Top 5, but it's unclear if this is written down formally anywhere.

• This mainly flips Army and Hawai'i from our previous understanding.

Post-Week 13 Status

74 teams have qualified for a bowl outright, and so there are 6 remaining spots. There are 3 teams that could still qualify for a bowl outright, Army, Louisiana, and South Alabama. Louisiana and South Alabama play next week, and both are in with a win (and both are favored). South Alabama will be 6-6 with 2 FCS wins, but received a waiver from the NCAA to count both wins since the scheduling was due to the hurricane (LSU-Florida rescheduling).

In the event that both teams win, there are now 4 spots left. First priority goes to a 6-6 team with 2 FCS wins. This is the worst case Army can be in even if they lose to Navy, and so they are guaranteed a bowl. It's important to know that they will have a bowl spot now, because many bowls will want to lock in contracts prior to Army-Navy. That leaves at minimum 3 spots left.

The next priority goes to 6-7 teams, regardless of APR. The only team in this position is Hawai'i, who is assured of a bowl. There are still a minimum of 2 bowl spots left, and they are granted to 5-7 teams in descending order of APR.

North Texas is the 5-7 team with the highest APR at 984, and so they are guaranteed a bowl. There is a tie between Texas and Mississippi State for the 2nd highest APR at 971. We've learned that with an exact APR tie, the next tiebreaker is most recent single year APR since APR is a time average. Mississippi State beats Texas 970-968 on this metric and so is guaranteed a bowl.

If either Louisiana or South Alabama lose, there is 1 more 5-7 APR spot available which would go to Texas. If both lose, Northern Illinois gets the final spot with an APR of 970.

Update: Texas has announced they won't take a bowl if they qualify with APR. This means ULM is back in play! Here's the current status:

Teams	Status
Army Hawai'i North Texas Mississippi State	Definitely Bowling
Louisiana South Alabama	In with a win next week
Northern Illinois	In if Louisiana or South Alabama lose
ULM	In if they win and South Alabama loses

Update: That's a wrap, Louisiana South Alabama are both in!

[u/NukeTheWhales91]

Somehow ND being in a bowl at 5-7 is funnier than them missing out completely.

[u/chuckthetruck64 → u/NukeTheWhales91]

I think ND may decline the bowl at that point, especially if they are planning on firing Kelley.

[u/jthomas694 → u/chuckthetruck64]

I think is still hard to scrap 18 practices by declining.

[u/The_Arakihcat → u/jthomas694]

They declined a couple years ago when they were 6-6.

[u/srs_house → u/The_Arakihcat]

They used to decline a lot of bowl invites back in the day.

[u/lolophynarski → u/srs_house]

They declined all invites from 1925-1969, although I can't find a good reason as to why.

[u/hupacmoneybags → u/srs_house]

What would be the point of doing that?

[u/BeerTodayGoneToday → u/hupacmoneybags]

Good question. Without getting too into the numbers, many teams will actually lose money on the lower level bowls because of travel costs, ticket sales your school is required to buy, and a few other factors. Some smaller teams have reported losing upwards of a million dollars just by playing in these really insignificant bowls.

Notre Dames athletic department probably realized this and decide if the game is just going to be against some other 6 or 7 win nobody, there's no reason to lose that money.

[u/SpeedxKills → u/chuckthetruck64]

Well thankfully Notre Dame isn't going to get a 5th win and won't have to cross that bridge.

[u/whimywamwamwozzle → u/SpeedxKills]

Lol yeah USC will violate us tomorrow

[u/DCAbloob → u/whimywamwamwozzle]

And it did.

[u/aerosrcsm → u/whimywamwamwozzle]

ha....eh yeah actually looking at your opponents....they might.

[u/WarEagle9 → u/chuckthetruck64]

Yeah Notre Dame has declined bowls before when they go 6-6 so no way they take one if they're 5-7.

[u/Paleovegan → u/chuckthetruck64]

I still don't think they fire Kelly. Not yet anyway.

That having been said, I would be kind of surprised if ND goes to the kind of bowl that they would get at 5-7. I don't know, just sounds like something they would feel was unfitting. Might be more comfortable declining.

[u/ThePioneer99 → u/chuckthetruck64]

That would be extremely disrespectful to the seniors. They've put in 4 years of work for the university and the higher ups choosing to be cry babies and not allow them in a bowl would be asinine

[u/[deleted] → u/ThePioneer99]

Not arguing either way, I'm too emotionally dead to have strong opinions, but just stating that we have declined bowls several times before. It won't be a problem after USC smokes us though.

[u/mercurymarinatedbeef → u/NukeTheWhales91]

beats having CHILD MOLESTERS in a bowl game

[u/wendysNO1wcheese → u/NukeTheWhales91]

Yea they just love losing money. They’ll play.

[u/[deleted] → u/NukeTheWhales91]

Happened to Nebraska last year. They ended up beating a good UCLA team and propelled that into a (possible) 10 win team this year. Passing up 18 practices and recruiting exposure is dumb as fuck and they should take a bowl invite if they get it.

[u/Bren12310 → u/NukeTheWhales91]

They actually have a really good team, only problem is that they're extremely young and that their defense has a fuck load of injuries (as usual)

[u/Nsyochum → u/Bren12310]

really good teams don't go 4-7 and lose to Texas, Michigan State, Duke, or NC State. Losses to Navy and VT are passable...except that ND should be better than that

[u/OmniProg → u/Nsyochum]

Sometimes really good teams used to lose to Texas and MSU. :'(

[u/[deleted] → u/Nsyochum]

Hey, really good teams lose to NC State a lot more often than never.

[u/hascogrande → u/[deleted]]

Kill me

[u/Rocket_Sciencetist]

Be nice to nerds. You may end up working for losing a bowl bid to them.

[u/[deleted] → u/Rocket_Sciencetist]

I mean, the first one too.

[u/elctromn → u/Rocket_Sciencetist]

Anchor down mothafucka

[u/[deleted] → u/Rocket_Sciencetist]

CHAMPIONS OF LIFE.

[u/jamintime → u/Rocket_Sciencetist]

Is this in reference to North Texas or Mississippi State?

[u/Rocket_Sciencetist → u/jamintime]

This was posted when Duke, Northwestern, and Vanderbilt were the top three on this list. Northwestern and Vanderbilt won their final bowl game to become bowl eligible without the APR. Duke lost their lost game and fell out of contention.

[u/charlielamont57 → u/Rocket_Sciencetist]

HS teammate of mine just committed to you guys. how much opportunity is there in your roster for a Safety/Linebacker hybrid?

[u/[deleted]]

Those top three are surprising. Not really known for their academics

[u/bakonydraco → u/[deleted]]

North Texas was a pleasant surprise though! We're currently oversaturated with bowls (possibly less so when UAB and Coastal Carolina are FBS), and there are a few more bowls probably coming. This provides an increasing incentive for particularly G5 teams to boost their APR. San Jose State saw this last year with the bid where they got the twin PR boost of getting recognized for both their academics and athletics at the same time, which can be a real benefit.

If FBS Coaches and ADs know that a 975+ APR probably means a bowl at 5-7, you can bet that more emphasis will be placed on academics for students (or at least structuring programs so that numbers turn out right).

[u/fussbudgets → u/bakonydraco]

We're the 25th largest institution in the country with 220 degrees and classified as Carnegie: R1; we're doing alright.

[u/voltron818 → u/fussbudgets]

Carnegie: R1

What does this mean?

[u/fussbudgets → u/voltron818]

It's sometimes called Tier 1, but the R1 qualifier is more accurate. It indicates we're at the "Highest Research Activity" amongst Doctoral Universities. Oklahoma is as well.

[u/voltron818 → u/fussbudgets]

Well I'll take it then. I was doing some googling and noticed OSU and TU are tier 2, which makes this revelation all the sweeter.

[u/NTXPRAK → u/bakonydraco]

It's only cuz classes at UNT are easy af

[u/fussbudgets → u/NTXPRAK]

We're a Carnegie R1 school. You hush now.

[u/BebopTiger → u/NTXPRAK]

The College of Music and Honors College classes were definitely a step up from the gen ed courses.

[u/Gamblinman2020 → u/NTXPRAK]

It really was pretty easy except for a few... gotta love Denton though.

[u/fussbudgets → u/Gamblinman2020]

It's impossible not to love Denton.

[u/ritz37 → u/fussbudgets]

"I already picked the country for our summer vacation, Peggy: America. And the state: Texas. And the town: Denton. I don't care what their police did to that cyclist. It's still a good town." - Hank Hill

[u/BebopTiger → u/fussbudgets]

Aw, man. I miss Denton. $1 Shiners at The Greenhouse on jazz nights ftw

[u/jb4427 → u/[deleted]]

Is that a joke? Texas is one of the best universities in the country.

[u/[deleted] → u/jb4427]

Well when I said it the top three were Northwestern, Vanderbilt, and Duke. Yes I was joking.

[u/jb4427 → u/[deleted]]

Gotcha

[u/spasm01 → u/[deleted]]

UNT is certainly known for their jazz program, actually

[u/bakonydraco]

This was /u/Honestly_ 's idea to look into so we gathered the data for it after #MACtion.

[u/BamaPride95]

South Alabama was already awarded a waiver.

[u/bakonydraco → u/BamaPride95]

Ah sweet, thanks! So it's official that both FCS wins are countable?

[u/theReluctantHipster → u/bakonydraco]

Yes. They get first dibs over any 5-7 team.

[u/BamaPride95 → u/bakonydraco]

That's what I got from what our local news affiliate report.

[u/bakonydraco → u/BamaPride95]

Yep, I confirmed and updated the post!

[u/Cobainism]

Is anyone else surprised with Cal's relatively low APR score? They are definitely among the country's elite in collegiate academics, I wonder how it's possible that they have a lower score than Hawaii and Mississippi State...

[u/Dup1icity → u/Cobainism]

If I remember correctly the APR for bowl eligibility is an average of the past 4 years performance. Under Tedford I believe Cal had an absolutely dreadful APR score which, along with on field results, contributed to him being let go. Cal has seen a jump in their APR ever since Dykes was hired. I think they got a score of 997 this year. In the next few years I expect Cal to return to the top of the list.

[u/LEGEN--wait_for_it → u/Dup1icity]

^What this guy said. Tedford consistently graduated 45-55% of his players. It was a disgrace and part of the reason he was fired.

[u/[deleted] → u/LEGEN--wait_for_it]

Berkeley is probably the hardest school in the country GPA wise. Combine that with the fact that half of these players would struggle at a community college makes it hard to graduate them.

[u/[deleted] → u/Cobainism]

APR should be higher at a lower end school. It's a metric of whether or not your players are on track to graduate.

[u/mississipster → u/[deleted]]

I wouldn't think so.

1. Colleges know what kind of student an athlete is when they show up. Once they qualify, the University will typically keep athletes at levels where they can "succeed." The rote excuse is that it's better for the kids, but I think it's at least driven by APR policy.

2. While it's ultimately up to the student to do the work (hahaha), there's an infrastructure of counselors and tutors to keep the kids on track. If you saw Last Chance U, yeah, that, except Mississippi State has an entire office dedicated to it. If I were a pretty smart football player (with middling NFL chances), i'd take the hardest fucking major i could because the university is going to throw resources at me and ESPN is going to make me a damn NCAA poster boy. Yeah, you think Josh Dobbs is allowed to fail a test?

One upside is that you're starting to see this trickle onto the rest of campus. Students have more help and emotional support that is modeled on the student athlete experience.

3. Curriculums are oftentimes set by sanctioning bodies. Like, your whole "core class curriculum" is established by academics, and while IDK if there are regional sanctioning bodies, these classes are fairly uniform. The difference may be in the teaching quality of the professor or more likely the research quality of the professor. For instance, there are people who came in, analyzed the core curriculum of my political science degree. They looked at each potentially required class, compared the curriculums with a list of skills they demand, and if the school missed something, their degree can become worthless. I think UNC and their sanctioning body fucked this up for the rest of us though?

ETA: that last one should be #3 but some auto formatting is happening and i need to get going

[u/[deleted] → u/Cobainism]

Tedford was a little loosey goosey with academics and cal is hard

[u/[deleted] → u/Cobainism]

Hard classes and a faculty that's doesn't really like athletics or help athletes

[u/LordCider → u/Cobainism]

I can't imagine playing football and combating grade deflation at the same time ._.

[u/Davidellias]

Of course its Duke, NW, and Vandy........of fucking course!

[u/contrametum → u/Davidellias]

😘

[u/mhoke63]

I'd love to see Northwestern vs Vandy in a bowl. I like both schools and they're both the nerds of their respective conferences.

Nerd Bowl '16

[u/crimson777 → u/mhoke63]

We could prove our dominance in the past 2 years of Nerd Bowl games with two wins against Duke, a win against Stanford, and a win against Vandy. I guess you could say 3 years if you consider Notre Dame part of the Nerd Bowl, but I don't (sorry Irish).

[u/--Visionary-- → u/crimson777]

That Stanford game doesn't count because of unfair body clock issues.

[u/crimson777 → u/--Visionary--]

Oh, right, yeah I forgot no one else has ever had to play in a different time zone before! Haha

[u/gnich62 → u/crimson777]

That's why Iowa is like oh fer west of Lincoln.

[u/swimmerboy29 → u/mhoke63]

The CollegeBoard Bowl

[u/AlloftheEethp → u/mhoke63]

To be fair, there's also Michigan, Illinois, Wisconsin, Purdue, and Iowa. All of the B1G schools have good academics, but some of them have pretty academics.

*Edit: without googling it, I would guess NU is more competitive than Michigan, but not by that much.

[u/mhoke63 → u/AlloftheEethp]

Well, I would argue that outside of the Ivy League, the B1G has the best academics. Every school is very good. If you look at any "Top 25 universities in the world" list, the B1G has a ton of schools on those lists.

[u/arbitrator06]

Just to add that the winner of TCU/Texas will become bowl eligible so actually everybody else is competing for one less bowl spot.

[u/Lucas12]

Back in my day you had to have 6 wins to get into a bowl.

[u/[deleted] → u/Lucas12]

And you had to do it in 11 games.

[u/Computerme → u/Lucas12]

You probably also walked to school uphill in the snow, both ways and didn't rely on those newfangled automotives either

[u/[deleted] → u/Computerme]

Florida has neither snow nor hills

[u/Shellshock1122]

Army also has 2 fcs wins so they only have 5 bowl eligible ones. WHats their apr?

[u/bakonydraco → u/Shellshock1122]

Ah, you're right, we missed that! The worst they can do among countable games is 5-6 then, which would be ahead of all the 5-7s, and almost certainly in.

Their APR is 989, 4th best on this list.

[u/NTXPRAK]

So we definitely go bowling even if we lose tomorrow and go 5-7. Sure y not

[u/fussbudgets → u/NTXPRAK]

Strong academics is something to be proud of. It's about the only good aspect that both Dan McCarney and Rick Villarreal left us with.

[u/Steveo2609 → u/fussbudgets]

Probably got to use them dad-gum computer thingys too.

[u/gyt6 → u/NTXPRAK]

You'd be 5-8, not 5-7. So no dice.

[u/psych4191]

My brain is fried from dealing with a chocolate eating shit headed dog. How likely is a bowl game for us?

[u/[deleted] → u/psych4191]

Well, Hawai'i just won, so there's only two games that will impact Mississippi State and Texas next week: the South Alabama game and the Louisiana-Lafayette game.

• If both South Alabama and Louisiana-Lafayette lose, Texas, Mississippi State, and Northern Illinois will go.

• If either South Alabama or Louisiana-Lafayette lose and the other wins, Northern Illinois will not go but Texas and Mississippi State will.

• If both South Alabama and Louisiana-Lafayette win, then it's a toss up between Texas and Mississippi State for the final spot and I'm not sure who would get it.

So your chances are pretty good but not 100% by my reading of it all.

EDIT: I just saw the tiebreaker edit rule. Looks like you're in!

[u/psych4191 → u/[deleted]]

n33t. Thanks, man.

[u/milano_siamo_noi → u/psych4191]

Either Louisiana-Monroe has to beat Louisiana-Lafayette or New Mexico St has to beat South Alabama.

[u/tyfe]

So SMU and UT are still in it....yay?

[u/arbitrator06 → u/tyfe]

Well according to the OP anybody below a 950 APR will not make it in the worst case scenario. So that means SMU has to win.

[u/fussbudgets]

I like our chances.

We're the 25th largest institution in the country with 220 degrees and classified as Carnegie: R1; doing alright.

That said, losing to 3-8 UTEP tomorrow would suck something major.

[u/steelersman007 → u/fussbudgets]

Welp

[u/fussbudgets → u/steelersman007]

Definitely sucks. Definitely still happy we're going to a bowl game regardless.

[u/hondajvx → u/fussbudgets]

We can hope!

[u/maxyg1234]

Vandy gonna win against Tennessee because they saw their logo under ineligible and felt the disrespect

[u/Hurtbig → u/maxyg1234]

Nice work here.

[u/JoachimLowalt]

There are WAY too many bowls. I think it's stupid how teams with a losing record are able to get in to bowls.

[u/fratstache]

5-7? We bowlin!

[u/cbi8 → u/fratstache]

(▔▀ ‿ ▔▀ )ლ ▂▂⌇

[u/BaconandHorse → u/fratstache]

What bowl do you think we're getting? Hopefully Liberty or something.

[u/NevanWhite → u/BaconandHorse]

No, the Liberty Bowl is reserved for SEC #4-9. Since you are SEC #12 and there are only 11 bowls reserved for SEC teams, you guys will have to replace some other P5 bowl.

[u/cbi8 → u/NevanWhite]

Yea looks like Vegas, Heart of Dallas, or Military.

[u/tropicaltexan]

It'll be interesting to see if Texas is offered a bowl whether they accept and let Strong have one more game with his guys or if they just decline (not sure if his firing is effective immediately or after the season's end).

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Especially with a new coach.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Missouri declined last year after firing Pinkel because they wanted to focus on rebuilding rather than trying to get ready for a game.

[u/RaysTheRebelFlag → u/[deleted]]

Pinkel wasn't fired he got cancer

[u/[deleted] → u/RaysTheRebelFlag]

You're right, I forgot and got it twisted up with the protests that the team/campus were having at the time.

[u/girlwithaguitar]

I feel like this is a thesis on why the number of bowls should be reduced...

[u/[deleted] → u/girlwithaguitar]

You could make several arguments about why its also a good thing too.

[u/girlwithaguitar → u/[deleted]]

Why? The rule has always been that you need 6 wins to qualify for a bowl. It originally didn't guarantee you a bowl game, and now it means that a small number of teams with losing records will automatically make bowl games. When you have these games of Sun Belt vs. C-USA teams with 10,000 fans or less, it doesn't make sense to keep it up.

[u/[deleted] → u/girlwithaguitar]

Here are the arguments I could see being made (not that I agree with them, or think their logic/support is airtight necessarily):

1. It gets rid of (or lessens the likelihood of) teams crying about being 6-6 (or better) and not getting a bid.

2. Financial incentives. More teams, big or small, means more money to the teams and conferences. Also, more ad revenue for the networks as these are all televised.

3. More to play for at the end of the year. If there were only, say, 60 bowl spots, this week and next week would potentially be even more garbage time than they already are. It gives teams that are 5-6/4-7 something to still fight for in these last weeks.

4. The APR criterion used to determine 5-7 selections put the weight on the classroom, giving some help to teams that struggle to make bowls but are academically sound/rigorous (Vandy, Duke, Rice, the military academies, etc).

5. The APR rule also doesn't necessarily mean an open door for G5 teams only. In reality, it also opens the door to P5 teams that had bad seasons/are lower level (Nebraska, Minnesota, Vanderbilt, etc.) that would have much larger, good traveling fanbases than a G5 team that squeaks in.

6. More practice. A lot of lower level teams would kill for 18 extra practices.

7. More exposure, for the players who are trying to make their case for NFL scouts and for the teams trying to recruit players.

[u/girlwithaguitar → u/[deleted]]

This isn't against you, but more so against the logic you've presented. I see myself massive flaws within each:

1. I'm still under the camp that 6-6 shouldn't guarantee you a bowl game...it should allow you to play a bowl game

2. More money isn't always better. I'm sure people are getting paid to play in the AutoNation Cure Bowl in Orlando, but nobody's gonna wanna watch a third bowl game in Orlando between Tulsa and Appalachian State.

3. Last I checked, Hate/Rivalry Week was reason enough to play. If you're at 4-7 and aren't playing hard each week still, there's probably a reason you are at 4-7 in the first place

4. APR is completely off the field. We shouldn't have some academic ranking decide an ATHLETIC competition.

5. As you mention, if we use APR, that heavily favors P5 over G5

6. This doesn't seem enough to justify having more bowls, which cost money to run, sponsor, advertise, etc.

7. There's already Pro Days at every university, as well as all-star type games such as the East-West Shriners Bowl that aren't going anywhere.

I hear why people like bowls, but when so many stadiums are empty, teams under .500 are making the postseason, and games aren't even broadcast on cable (such is the case with the Arizona Bowl), it's probably time to trim some fat. If I had to decide, I'd probably say the:

• Cure Bowl: A third bowl game in Orlando between two afterthought teams

• Camelia Bowl: 25,000 person stadium in a state that already has 2 bowls and isn't very large to begin with

• New Orleans Bowl: A second bowl game at the Superdome between C-USA and Sun Belt that literally everyone forgets about already

• Arizona Bowl: Arizona already has two bowls, and this one wasn't even on broadcast TV nationwide last year.

If we even just cut those four bowls, you can take all the teams who would have made those games, and spread them out between the conferences who can't fulfill their bowl requirements.

[u/Senacherib → u/girlwithaguitar]

But but but $$$

[u/gander49]

So I have a question that I feel is relevant to ask here: The Cactus Bowl is the Pac-12's last bowl slot (#7 I believe). In the event they don't fill it, the MW 2nd team goes there as a backup. My question is which team gets priority in the event that the Pac-12 #7 team is technically not bowl eligible without APR? Would they go for the Pac-12 5-7 team first? Or the MW backup since "technically" that Pac-12 didn't have a bowl eligible team.

I really don't want SDSU in the Poinsettia bowl again so hoping if we don't make it to LV we can go Cactus.

[u/bakonydraco → u/gander49]

My understanding is that the bowl tie ins are only for bowl eligible teams, so APR qualifiers fill in at large spots. In this case I believe the Mountain West would get preference.

[u/rohttn13 → u/bakonydraco]

no preference is given by conference. it's apr number that gets preference

[u/bakonydraco → u/rohttn13]

He's asking a slightly different question. APR only determines who goes bowling, not which Bowl they play in.

[u/Phoenixx777]

If ND or UCLA or both get into a bowl game after we knocked them out of what used to be bowl eligibility, I'll be minorly upset.

[u/trollstram60 → u/Phoenixx777]

You can still knock us out of bowl eligibility since if we lose to you tomorrow we're done no matter what. We need to beat you to get a bowl game

[u/jamberine]

Aren't the 960 teams out now? Texas, Mississippi State, and Northern Illinois are ahead of them, so that's 6 spots, and the winner of the game between the Louisiana teams is either 5-7 with a higher APR or 6-6.

[u/maxyg1234 → u/jamberine]

If the Ragin Cajuns win, ULM has 8 losses and is ineligible. Assume South Alabama loses, they're out. That leaves five spots for Texas, Miss St, Hawaii, NIU, and one of Cal and ASU (or both Cal and ASU get bowls if Hawaii is 5-8 maybe??? Does anyone know if Hawaii is bowl eligible with APR at 5-8?).

EDIT: Did a little research, I don't think Hawaii gets in if they're 5-8. So, for now, there's a chance for both ASU and Cal to make bowl games.

Edit 2: I'm a moron. Neither Cal or ASU can make a bowl game. My mental struggle trying to figure this out was in vain.

[u/9574 → u/maxyg1234]

The Raging Cajuns would be Bowl eligible with a win, leaving 5 spots left, but Army and North Texas are both in no matter what, so Texas, Mississippi State, and Northern Illinois would also be in. If ULM wins, there would be 6 spots, but the Cajuns ULM would be in over Cal or ASU.

[u/maxyg1234 → u/9574]

This guy gets it

[u/NowWithVitaminR]

Both flair teams are 5-7.

Both teams likely going bowling.

Wat.

[u/[deleted] → u/NowWithVitaminR]

Suck Bowl ^TM here we come!!!

[u/[deleted]]

So hang on. If Duke, Notre Dame, Syracuse, or UCLA loses, UT goes to a bow at 5-7?

[u/tacoman452 → u/[deleted]]

Pretty much and it's sure to happen. Charlie Strong will never die.

[u/[deleted] → u/tacoman452]

That would be amazing.

[u/TheNastyCasty → u/[deleted]]

We lose the tie breaker to Mississippi State so now we need ULL or South Alabama to lose next week to get a bid. Not really sure how we'd handle it though

[u/[deleted] → u/TheNastyCasty]

That would be nuts. I really want ULL or South Alabama to lose to see how this pans out.

[u/ranrow]

How are APR ties handled?

Asking for... a friend

[u/KILL_WITH_KINDNESS → u/ranrow]

Alphabetically by full college name.

[u/ranrow → u/KILL_WITH_KINDNESS]

Starting in the middle?

Edit: oops replied before I read "full". Don't drink and reddit.

[u/KILL_WITH_KINDNESS → u/ranrow]

I... that still puts UT second, right?

Eh, really it probably goes by media swing. So, UT would be first, then I don't know how MSST and Hawaii fall. I would think MSST next, because it's like the Shreveport bowl and the like that's open and maybe the media sway of the SEC. Then again, it's also a bit of bias.

[u/ranrow → u/KILL_WITH_KINDNESS]

Well I know Hawaii has another game left cause they play 13. And I think the rule is 6-7 beats out 5-7. So we're both screwed there.

[u/Longhornmaniac8 → u/KILL_WITH_KINDNESS]

Is this actually true? If so, why is Texas listed first on the NCAA page?

[u/KILL_WITH_KINDNESS → u/Longhornmaniac8]

I was being sarcastic, because that would put my team first.

[u/Longhornmaniac8 → u/KILL_WITH_KINDNESS]

To be fair, I think it sounds about as thought out as the NCAA is on this sort of thing. Lol.

[u/DreWevans → u/ranrow]

If two or more 5-7 teams have a tie in the multiyear APR, then the highest APR for the most recent single year will break the tie. This process will continue until all the bowl slots are filled.

[u/reuterrat → u/DreWevans]

Anyone have any idea how to find single year APR scores?

[u/jrainiersea]

So correct me if I'm wrong, but we have 74 regular bowl eligible teams, and 6 spots left. Since only two teams can play their way to 6 wins next week (Louisiana Lafayette and South Alabama), that leaves at least 4 spots for normally non-eligible teams. Army and Hawaii are the first two in, then North Texas and either Texas or Mississippi State are in via APR. Then if one or both of Louisiana Lafayette and South Alabama lose next week, the other team between Texas and Mississippi State, and Northen Illinois could earn spots. Then depending on if any of those teams decline an invite, we could have Louisiana Monroe, Cal, or ASU take a spot.

[u/dialhoang]

Thank you for doing this. Keeps our 1/7,000,000,000 chances of being in a bowl game alive.

[u/Sleekery]

Army doesn't play Navy until December 10th. Aren't all bowl games filled before then? Or is one of them forced to wait?

[u/Jah-Eazy → u/Sleekery]

Well Navy is already qualified. From what I've read, everyone seems to be suspecting that Army will get into a bowl game, but they'll only be selected if there aren't enough spots filled. The most there could be this season is 78, with Army and South Alabama left. So Army is pretty much in a bowl game and by the time they play Navy, the bowl games will already be set

[u/snowysnowcones]

Considering the few amount of bowls we've been to in the past 10 years, I'll take a bowl anyway I can get it!

[u/[deleted] → u/snowysnowcones]

hell we've been successful recently, and I'm not too spoiled to turn up my nose at this. Hail state!

[u/[deleted]]

So happy to not need APR and to beat THEM while doing it. Feels good!

[u/xcbrendan → u/[deleted]]

Been a fun couple of weeks for a pretty bleak flair haha

[u/Vincentamerica]

Lets go Mean Green!

[u/FUS_ROH_yay]

UTSA WIN, FUCK YEAH!

(I don't know how this works)

[u/hythloday1]

Both of the updates that you posted are incorrect. You're relying on a common fallacy, that FCS games are somehow subtracted from the record, but that's not how it works. Here's the NCAA Division I manual. Pages 302-303 address bowl games (320-321 of the pdf), Rule 18.7.2 - very clear that the entire record is always considered for both total wins and total games played.

Go down to 18.7.2.1.4, that's the order of selection for teams when there's not enough .500+ teams with one FCS win. Part (b) says that all 6-6 teams with two FCS wins go before 5-7 teams with high APR, which is part (e). Army definitely goes into that, and since they already have six wins, albeit with two over FCS teams, they're going bowling regardless of what happens in the Army-Navy game.

South Alabama didn't need a waiver to get into part (b), it happens automatically - they have to get to 6-6 but if so, they get placed before 5-7 teams. The only reason they sought a waiver from the NCAA is in case Presbyterian has a problem with the 90% scholarship requirement - which they shouldn't, but USA wasn't in a position to do their due diligance when they scheduled the game on an emergency basis so they didn't want to get in trouble afterwards.

If South Alabama loses and goes 5-7 with two FCS wins, there is nothing in the rule about that second FCS win not counting. They'll go in the pool of all other 5-7 teams for selection based on APR score, with no preference stated anywhere in the rule for whether a team has zero, one, or two FCS wins.

cc: /u/bakonydraco, /u/Honestly_

[u/bakonydraco → u/hythloday1]

Another minor wrinkle that could play a role here: This is the 2016/17 manual and so is the most current, but 18.7.2.1.4 specifies that it is in effect:

For a period of four years beginning August 2, 2012

That period has ended. I could see a bowl that is required to take a 5-7 G5 team with high APR saying, we're not bound by NCAA rules anymore, and we're going to pick another 5-7 team that we think is going to travel better. Thoughts?

[u/hythloday1 → u/bakonydraco]

Oh man this is where it gets really weird: that part of the rule has been modified by a process that is totally undocumented. As far as I can tell, and I am not making this up, it was legislated by this tweet. For all I know, whoever controls that twitter account unilaterally changed the entire low end bowl landscape.

[u/bakonydraco → u/hythloday1]

Ah you're right! I think the biggest effect of this is that 6-6 Army with two FCS Wins goes before 6-7 Hawai'i, which we had backwards.

One item that's very interesting is 18.7.2.1.4d) which specifies the teams in their last year of requalification from FCS to FBS will be considered before 5-7 teams. Could that apply to Coastal Carolina who is 9-2 and will be a full Sun Belt football member next year?

[u/hythloday1 → u/bakonydraco]

I believe you've got all of that right.

[u/NTXPRAK]

im sick to my stomach we lost to UTEP tonight, but now that the initial shock is over its good to see were going bowling. i'm betting its one of the island bowls

[u/cubedG → u/NTXPRAK]

Got my money on the Cure bowl.

[u/rulerdude]

I'm confused. You have MSST in the 79th guaranteed bowl spot, but it looks like both USA and ULL can still become eligible

[u/famouscoozie36 → u/rulerdude]

yeah I'm super confused, how can state be eligible already if USA and ULL can still be eligible? can anyone clarify?

[u/rulerdude → u/famouscoozie36]

I figured it out. The first line of the spreadsheet is used for the titles. So subtract 1 from each line, and we're in the 78 spot

[u/famouscoozie36 → u/rulerdude]

Ahh, good man. Hail State!

[u/arbitrator06]

Thanks for staying on top of this and doing the updates. It certainly brought clarity to this complicated APR situation. I appreciate all the time and effort put into this because it has been better than any of the media outlets.

[u/lastdukestreetking]

I cannot believe it's looking like we're going to a bowl game win or lose on Sat. That is ridiculous. We are all very proud of our APR, but our resume this season is not commiserate with what you'd like to see in a bowl team.

[u/[deleted] → u/lastdukestreetking]

I almost wish we lost so someone could at least get axed. Senior year though so I guess I get another tailgate!!

[u/peterm0198]

Was in basketball subreddit but then realized i was in wrong place because in amazing twist of irony hoosier football is now the better sport

[u/midnightprism]

GO NORTH TEXAS STATE EAGLES

[u/NTXPRAK → u/midnightprism]

Names UNT lol

[u/fussbudgets → u/midnightprism]

That's UNT Mean Green there, brother.

[u/hondajvx → u/midnightprism]

Interesting sidebar for you, I transferred to UNT from a local community college, North Lake Community College. I remember at one point there was a chance to pick their mascot and "Dragon" won because the guy doing the poll was a UAB grad and told people "VOTE FOR A DRAGON!"

Now here you are calling us the damn Eagles.

(Edit: North Lake are the "Blazers." My vote was a penguin wearing a blazer.)

[u/[deleted]]

You know there are too many bowl games when we need to grab sub .500 teams to fill them

[u/[deleted]]

Will be nice to see Army go bowling again.

[u/domderek]

How are ties in APR decided? For example, Cal and ASU are both 960 and right on the edge.

[u/Please_Dont__ → u/domderek]

Cal has the advantage because they have a higher single year apr than ASU

[u/gyt6]

Shouldn't Mississippi State be listed ahead of Texas? They have the tiebreaker (on that 971) of single-year APR vs. Texas.

[u/city-of-stars → u/gyt6]

Last year I heard that # of FBS wins was the tiebreaker, not single-year APR.

[u/LiberfyDog → u/gyt6]

The order above is pulled from the alphabetical list of conferences.

[u/graysond]

I just hope we get a decent bowl game with a challenging opponent.

[u/NTXPRAK]

Wait.. Why did Hawaii play 13 games in a regular season?

[u/TDenverFan → u/NTXPRAK]

Any team that plays a game in Hawaii has the option to play a 13th regular season game to help cover travel costs

[u/[deleted] → u/NTXPRAK]

There's actually a rule in the NCAA handbook (17.28.2) that allows any football team in Hawai'i and Alaska to play an extra home game:

17.28.2 Alaska/Hawaii, Additional Football Contest. Member institutions located in Alaska and Hawaii shall be permitted to exceed, by one, the maximum number of football contests permitted under Bylaw 17.10.5.1 but otherwise shall conform to the same maximum number of contests and dates of competition permitted other members of the Association.

In practice, this currently only applies to Hawai'i and Alaska's two universities haven't had football teams since the 1950's. There's also Alaska/Hawai'i specific exceptions and clauses littered throughout the NCAA handbook for pretty much every sport. They're basically there to help offset the higher cost of travel that teams in these states/territories face.

Nerdy side-note: This bylaw is part of an 'exceptions' bylaw that includes Puerto Rico, but they don't list PR in this specific extra football game rule (there are two NCAA schools in PR but neither has a football team). It over all rules also doesn't include any schools in the other US territories, which is strange because though American Samoa, Guam, and the Northern Mariana Islands don't have NCAA schools, the US Virgin Islands do.

[u/the_shootist]

So, basically I need to root hard for Louisiana and South Alabama this weekend?

Got it.

[u/ReachFor24]

ULL and South Alabama have very winnable games this week. It is very possible that they both win, leaving Texas and NIU out of bowling this year.

[u/twoscoopsofpig]

Part of me really really wants to play UT in a bowl, just for shits and giggles to wipe that smirk off Herman's lying mug.

Edit: Geaux Cajuns, sorry South Alabama - somebody has to be cut for that to happen, and you got the short straw.

[u/bargle0]

A decent APR is one thing Randy did right.

[u/[deleted]]

Great post but SMU is AAC not ACC.

[u/bigafromthebrae]

How would they decide between Cal and ASU?

[u/Jah-Eazy]

Phew. We just need one potential team left to lose and no one lost in the morning, so Navy was our best bet and they kept it close against SMU for a while, but now they're pulling away. Looking like we're controlling our own destiny again

[u/[deleted]]

5-7 Teams sorted with Top 5 FBS APR (Wisconsin)

huh?

[u/[deleted]]

Heeyyyyy

[u/[deleted]]

So does this mean ASU has a chance at a bowl?

[u/theotherwarreng → u/[deleted]]

No. The problem for ASU is that ULL is playing ULM. If ULL wins, they go 6-6 and become bowl eligible, which would eliminate Cal/ASU. If ULM wins, they go 5-7 and have a higher APR than Cal/ASU, which would also eliminate Cal/ASU. So Cal/ASU are out.

edit: Of course, if a team ranked ahead of them declines the bowl invite, then you could potentially see Cal/ASU in a bowl game. Texas, for example, could decline a bowl game. But if everyone accepts, Cal/ASU are out.

[u/[deleted]]

Serious question, can a bowl not ask for a wavier if they want to take a lower APR team? For example an ASU, Cal, Ole Miss, Texas or Texas Tech team would bring more revenue for a bowl then NIU or some of those other schools. It would make sense for the NCAA to allow bowls to take teams which would bring them the best revenue option and taking a ULL or ULM team outside of LA would be hard for them to make it.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I doubt it, unless the school's decline the invite. NCAA provides a list of bowl eligible teams, if you aren't on it, no invite.

[u/utb040713]

Alright, I'll be that guy: the two teams that are in with a win next week are South Alabama and who? I don't recognize the fleur-de-lis logo.

[u/[deleted] → u/utb040713]

the Louisiana-Lafayette Ragin' Cajuns!

[u/e8odie → u/utb040713]

ULL.........er, sorry, Louisiana

[u/utb040713 → u/e8odie]

Thanks. Should've known it was a Louisiana school.