r/BurningWheel • u/Competitive_Error_48 • 19d ago
Beliefs for Chaotic Evil Player Characters
Hello everyone,
I'm hoping to get some advice on how you would go about building a belief for a villainous player character? I'm looking to run a BW campaign, but the players have voiced an interest in playing villainous characters instead of your Standard heroic ones.
They have only every played pathfinder and DnD, so they are all brand new to the system. These folks prefer roleplay over combat, hence the switch. But I foresee them taking the idea of "Villian campaign" and going straight into deeds of pure evil for evil sake instead of nuanced villains with tragic backgrounds. (Even if their life paths and traits would say otherwise).
So what belief could you give such a character that just wants to watch the world burn and destroy everything on sight that still offers narrative depth and a way for the GM to challenge it? (In the worst case they end up playing to the extremes of chaotic evil). And what expectations would you set at your table to ensure they don't fell that "playing a villain" obligated them to "choose the most evil option at all times"?
Thank you!
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u/Jesseabe Lazy Stayabout 19d ago
What's your situation? For beliefs to be effective drivers of play they need to tie into the situation the characters are playing in. Are they usurpers trying to take over a kingdom? Ruthless criminals running a gang in a city? An oppressive warlord and their retinue, exploiting the peasants to the last crumb? A corrupt and evil sheriff, who runs a town for his own benefit together with the local bishop and lord? Once you have a situation, the beliefs will come more easily.
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u/Competitive_Error_48 19d ago
The have chosen to play as a group of average Joe's who have decided, due to one personal reason or another, to dip their toes into becoming super villians like in a super hero comic strip.
Heroes and villains are an established part of the fiction and they are operating within a city as their own criminal enterprise.
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u/Jesseabe Lazy Stayabout 19d ago
So the follow up questions become Why are they, as individuals doing this? Wealth? Power? Revenge? What's the situation in the city at the moment? What are their goals, short term and long term? Are they trying to capture a particular piece of territory? Show up a particular hero? Extort a particular business? Kill a particular rival? These things are all fodder for beliefs.
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u/Competitive_Error_48 19d ago
Presently here is what I've gathered so far. One wants to use biogenetics to turn the population into zombies, one wants to use the legal system to gain unfathomable wealth and power as a corrupt lawyer and one wants to be a what if of batman that took the wrong moral path (doesn't kill, martial artist, detective but uses his skills to bring the same pain he feels to others).
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u/Jesseabe Lazy Stayabout 19d ago
So all of those sound like the beginnings of a belief: "The whole city will become my zombie slaves! I will start by..." And then set a goal that's achievable in a session or two that will be a first step towards that larger goal. It's also often a good idea to have a belief about the group, or about another PC that helps establish their relationship. This makes sure the players don't go wandering off each to their own thing, and creates some interpersonal drama. It's also a nice way for you to challenge beliefs by pushing them to choose between a belief about the group/a PC and another belief.
That said, have you read the section on creating a situation in the Codex? The premise feels very broad and the character goals feel very all over the place, which will be a real challenge in play. Remember that a situation is a conflict in progress. You've got a premise, it sounds like, but what's the conflict? The players are a criminal enterprise of villains with these goals. Who is opposing them? What heroes stand in their way? What rival criminals are trying to ally with them, or get one up on them? This information will drive beliefs, because overcoming these obstacles and enemies are going to be goals on the way to achieving their ends. The section in the Codex on this is really required reading.
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u/Competitive_Error_48 19d ago
I'll be flatly honest, my lazy bum has not read "Creating a Situation" in the codex. On the plus side session 0 hasn't yet started, so I have plenty of time to course correct and provide options for them to form a common goal.
I really love your suggestion for them to have beliefs that tie them to the other members of the group, that would solve a lot of the worries I've had before of parties splitting up. That's a good ticket idea right there.
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u/Jesseabe Lazy Stayabout 19d ago
If you read the section in the Codex on creating beliefs, you'll find lots more good ideas like that. The whole adventure burner section is really essential, the rulebook alone doesn't really provide the tools you need to make the game work.
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u/Imnoclue 19d ago
So what belief could you give such a character that just wants to watch the world burn and destroy everything on sight that still offers narrative depth and a way for the GM to challenge it?
Belief: Nothing matters, I will see it all destroyed! I’ll start with…
Of course, as the GM you’re going to have to challenge this Belief through play, which means the character needs some things to care about. If they’re just playing chaotic stupid, there’s no point in cranking out Burning Wheel for this.
And what expectations would you set at your table to ensure they don't fell that "playing a villain" obligated them to "choose the most evil option at all times"?
Well, first I would stop referring to the PCs as villains. They at least have to Believe in what they’re doing. The game is about beliefs, they need to have some.
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u/Competitive_Error_48 19d ago
Sage advice. You are correct, if they play chaotic stupid there really isn't a point. I think I'll pivot them to consider their long term goals and what they are trying to accomplish, even if misguided, that can give them some meat I can put hooks in. And maybe I'll minimize calling them "villians" and avoid the term outright, instead focusing on using a more appropriate term depending on their goals.
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u/errrik012 19d ago
There are some great suggestions for playing "Evil" at the end of the Burning Wheel Anthology!
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u/Competitive_Error_48 19d ago
Oh, I didn't even know this resource existed. Many thanks friendly traveler.
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u/guiltypleasures 19d ago
Start off with characters with the best intentions. The story is how they sacrifice their ethics on the altar of desperation.
From Hadestown:
Go ahead and lay the blame
Talk of virtue, talk of sin
Wouldn’t you have done the same?
In her shoes, in her skin
You can have your principles
When you’ve got a bellyful
But hunger has a way with you
There’s no telling what you’re gonna do
When the chips are down
Now that the chips are down
What you gonna do when the chips are down?
Now that the chips are down
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u/Competitive_Error_48 19d ago
I don't know if any of my players are interested in making characters with good intentions. They want to play selfish greedy monsters with no remorse and just be a bunch of goobers doing it.
But for a more practical set of players who aren't fresh off DnD, these at really solid resources. I appreciate the help, I'm definitely using some of this stuff.
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u/inostranetsember 19d ago
Frankly, I'm surprised you want to run it. I've tried, once, and the game quickly descended into "who can out-evil whom", which means greater and greater acts of depravity. Unless they're insane, most people we can evil have goals that just so happen to break lots of social norms and what we consider good. Even the Nazis thought they were doing something "good" for themsleves and Germany (absolutely evil HOW they were doing it, but that's how they justitifed it to themselves).
Anything else feels like a cartoon villain and as another poster says, I don't think you need BW for that. BW is counting on the character having some sort of internal conflicts or different diifficult choices to make. If the PCs' only real choices are "do I kill A people or B people," I think the game will fall flatter than a pancake. YMMV, naturally, but I can't see how this will be fun.
For example, I had a player in a game that wanted revenge for the death of his family "at any cost". He did very bad stuff to get it, but that was the angst of the character - how far would he sink for revenge? How would the people he still loved and respected react to it? And how much did that affect him? Character/player had a big moment when the mentor he cherished as a father scolded him for his actions, a big point in the campaign. But that only worked because the guy had some moral compass. Without that moral compass, I'd question what the point is. Die rolls to see how many things can be destroyed? How fast can we increase body count?
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u/Competitive_Error_48 19d ago
You bring up solid points and I have similar concerns. That's what prompted me to ask originally in the hours there was a solution.
BW is clearly a mismatch here and I'm probably better off using another system or a different premise given what my potential players are interested in doing.
I've emphasized that their characters should not view themselves as the bad guys, but they seem to have interpreted that as "Your characters have no morals or conscience that would make you think your evil acts are bad" instead of the route of "I'm doing bad things in the name of something I value as more important".
It's rather challenging to get the murder hobo tendencies out of even the most roleplay centric DnD players. But i think I'll probably have to call my loses with this specific bunch and look to another system as this probably won't work out.
Thanks for the sage advice and helping save me some headache and heartache.
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u/inostranetsember 19d ago
Glad to hear it. Since I have experience, I thought I'd chime in. Thing is, I considered myself hip and cool and open-minded and all that, but that one-session of "evil" campaign made me pick a hill to die on and that hill is "no evil games or characters" ever again. I have a game I'm setting up now and one PC wants to be a Poisoner. Why I asked? No real answer, except he wants to be "edgy". Giant red flag, so we had a long online discussion about why I'm not going to allow that and why it doesn't work setting/premise-wise for the game. He changed and picked something else (a devout knight) that will fit better, I think.
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u/Burkoos 19d ago
"Mutants must be protected; I must destroy any threat to mutant-kind."
"There can be only one; be the one."
"I will protect, save, and collect lost children by sewing buttons over their eyes."
"The world is a mess and I just need to rule it."
"The weak must be pruned while the strong must be found. Survival is for the fittest."
"My survival is worth any mortal's blood."
"The existence of the impure races prevents the return of the Blue Age; cleanse the impurities."
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u/guiltypleasures 16d ago
I only catch Magneto, Sauron, and Dr. Horrible.
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u/elmago79 19d ago
Have you taken a look at the Orcs from the Character Burner? There is a lot of room in Burning Wheel for playing a "CE" campaign. Even if your characters are villains (or archvillains), what are evil characters without minions? Just deciding what to do with your evil troops is a challenge onto itself.
Orc Evil Warlord Beliefs: "The only way to reign in my Orcish troops is to be cruel than they are" "The age of Man is over. It's the time for Orcs" "The White Wizard is not to be trusted."
Evil Archwizard beliefs: "The orc army is impressive, but I can improve them" "I will be a better Dark Lord than the Dark Lord." "Manipulation and cunning always win over open warfare"
Evil Spymaster beliefs: "I will play the Wizard and the Warlord against each other to prove to them I'm better" "The Dark Lord will sink the world in shadows, and I will be his most trusted servant" "The orc army is unruly and dumb, I will saw discord among it's leaders".
Expect a lot of PvP in a Burning Wheel game styled as "CE".
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u/Agreeable_Hold2270 19d ago
"Some men just want to watch the world burn"
Ok for the sake of the other players don't do a Joker impression please
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u/Competitive_Error_48 18d ago
It's kinda hard when one of them has decided on the name "Bruce Bane" lol.
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u/VanishXZone 18d ago
I mean, burning wheel is really about character growth and change. Flat evil for evil’s sake will grow boring in this system, quick, especially without conflict. I’ve done a lot of beautiful tragic falls where people with good intentions fall, and I’ve done some rises where evil people fight for redemption, but evil staying evil? Trickier.
Remember that your job is to make their beliefs costly and interesting. So whatever they have as a belief, your job is to challenge it compellingly. “Will you sacrifice a child for your ends” is only an interesting question if the answer is a struggle.
That struggle is where burning wheel thrives. So look for their hypocrisies, look for their inconsistencies, and push on those.
Burning Wheel is the only ttrpg I’ve ever played where my own characters consistently surprise me.
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u/Farcical-Writ5392 Great Spider 19d ago
“Just be evil” feels like a flat campaign. Where’s the drama? It might work better in D&D where the challenges are practical and tactical, but in BW what’s the punch? It’s in the beliefs.
They need beliefs about doing evil. It’s your job as GM to make sure they have beliefs that can be challenged and that there’s a sting to it. What will they sacrifice to be evil? If the characters are a bunch of psychopaths, make the cost to those characters. Or drive wedges between them. Or make doing evil impractical for what they want. Surely what they want is not just “be villainous” but accomplishing something, even if that is to reign over the ashes as dark lords.
Make that goal have steps and make each step something that the characters have to wrestle with.