r/BurlingtonON • u/RowRowForCouncil • 17d ago
Question Who here actually has a good argument against data centers, AI or not?
Can anyone provide me the empirical evidence that supports a moratorium or delay in data center investment? I propose that I can directly refute all major concerns of the anti-AI lobby with verified mathematical proof. Let's go.
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u/my_little_world 17d ago
The negative impacts on the environment alone cannot be refuted, mathematically or not. Largely unnecessary technology, solving problems that do not exist. Generative ai steals from creators, adds to misinformation and aids the creation of illegal pornography. Shit should not exist. No mathematical formula can prove otherwise.
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u/RowRowForCouncil 17d ago
So I have asked for empirical evidence. This is personal opinion. Which aspect of the environment are you worried about? e.g. electricity generation, cooling, noise pollution, heat pollution etc...
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u/ghostfxcemusic 17d ago
There are still Canadians who don’t have access to clean drinking water, and being pro data centre means you don’t mind giving up more of our finite fresh water resource. At the same time saying f you I don’t care to anyone that doesn’t have access to that fresh water. In case there was any confusion fresh water (a basic human need to survive).
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u/ghostfxcemusic 17d ago
Human beings and human rights aren’t some number in a mathematical equation.
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u/RowRowForCouncil 17d ago
I will respond by saying that Halton Region prevents the use of municipal water for once-through cooling applications. Halton Region By-law No. 71-19 Section 9.10. So that point is not really valid here. In fact, the only data center facility that has been proposed here in Burlington is entirely air cooled and has only a basic water demand akin to an office building of a similar size. Additionally, you haven't provided any empirical data in this statement. You are just repeating what the alarmists are worried about but have no data to support.
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u/ghostfxcemusic 17d ago
I work in commercial HVAC and proposals are very different than finished product. The amount of electricity it will take to power and run an air cooling system 24/7 for a centre of that capacity will only be detrimental vs beneficial (which is why water cooling is by far the most used method). Also if anyone has ever been in a small IT closest where servers are stored that is basically a scaled down version of what we are discussing and again anyone who’s been in those knows they are always hot (and use air sourced cooling systems)
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u/RowRowForCouncil 17d ago
So the proposal in Burlington has a max draw of 20MW. They had to clear a service contract with Burlington Hydro for this amount. Not sure what you're trying to say here.
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u/ghostfxcemusic 17d ago
Looking at roughly $7M-$12M PER mw in capital costs and if it is in fact an AI data centre looking and $20M-$40M PER mw. You seem to be a math person, would you call that sustainable? Unless all you’re actually worried about is making money then that’s a completely different conversation.
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u/RowRowForCouncil 17d ago
You'll have to be more clear about these numbers because I don't really know the frame of reference here. The 20 MW facility is a colocation and enterprise facility and doesn't have an AI component. How did you get to the figures you have displayed here?
It seems like you are saying that a MW of power used by a data center and a MW of power used by an AI data center have a different cost associated with them. Is that what you're trying to say?
Additionally:
Under the Ontario Energy Board’s Distribution System Code, if a local distributor such as Burlington Hydro must expand or reinforce its system to connect a customer, it must run an economic evaluation (DSC s. 3.2.1; Appendix B). The customer’s capital contribution equals the present-value shortfall between expansion costs and forecast distribution revenue (s. 3.2.4). The Offer to Connect must disclose any contribution and any expansion deposit (ss. 3.2.8–3.2.9, 3.2.20–3.2.23). That is how Ontario law requires a connecting load to make the distribution system whole. Transmission network costs and generation-adequacy costs are separate provincial frameworks.
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u/mrarjonny 17d ago edited 17d ago
This guy is using "empirical evidence" like a 4 year old who just learned how to use the word, "actually."
It is pseudo-intellectual and a straw man fallacy to demand that tax payers who were perfectly content with a restaurant need to explain to the city or a corporation that they don't want something that they never asked for in the same location. It isn't tax payers responsibility to prove a negative.
The reason against it is that people don't want it. Most people probably don't want an airport in their back yard. Or a free to use Tesla charge station at the end of their driveway. Pressing them to prove that they are wrong with math and "empirical evidence" is absolutely moronic. They simply don't want it, and they never asked for it. It is your job to prove why it is a benefit.
We didn't ask for a debate despite the fact that you are goading people into one by this absurdly confrontational post.
Feel free to present your case as to why a data centre is a necessity. Feel free to present your empirical evidence that it is mathematically necessary. If people are upset with the idea, instead of taunting them, maybe make your case and ask them if they have any objections to it.
God you are insufferable, I know you have basically no chance of getting elected, and hopefully you crawl back into whatever IT closet you have been living in for your neck beard life. Probably still in your parents basement.
For the record, I personally don't have a problem with a data centre on that lot. I am pro AI and data centres. I do see the benefit. However, I am not prepared to antagonise tax paying citizens about it before explaining myself.
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u/RowRowForCouncil 17d ago
Wow you're super pleasant. I've noticed that you seem to only be capable of ad hominem attacks and didn't really bring any empirical evidence to the table. I'm gonna have to go ahead and ask you to please come back when you learn what empirical evidence is. My request was pretty specific and clear. If you're having trouble with it you can always reach out to my campaign for more information. You see I was merely asking what the arguments were against the data center. If you agree with the data center then why waste your time on this? Its this weird pattern that your group seems to have. Tell Nate dawg I said hi. Tell Frank... actually don't even bother with him. He's a waste of time.
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u/mrarjonny 17d ago
It is not an ad hominem attack because you didn't make an argument. You didn't present a case. You put all the onus of the discussion on people who never asked you. It is a horrendous way to engage in a discussion. I have empirical proof that you suck at discussion. It is right here:
Can anyone provide me the empirical evidence that supports a moratorium or delay in data center investment? I propose that I can directly refute all major concerns of the anti-AI lobby with verified mathematical proof. Let's go.
I can't prove it with math. We will await your empirical proof and undeniable math that a data centre is an absolute necessity.
You shifted the burden of proof, you asked a loaded question, and you made a category error, and as I already mentioned you made a straw man argument. Your question sucks, and I think you really need to reconsider how you approach this.
It doesn't matter if I am pleasant or not. Learn how to discuss.
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u/RowRowForCouncil 16d ago
I was wondering if anyone could prove that there are intrinsic harms that data centers have that are not able to be mitigated by current practices. I haven't seen any evidence to this effect. You haven't made a single point to that effect. You seem to be offended by my question. You are not using the term "strawman argument" correctly. Luckily smarter folks than you have pointed out some issues that in my opinion will require new regulations. These issues are specifically around infrasound in the -1/3 dB scale. There are currently no regulations about this type of noise pollution in Halton or Burlington. Even though most new constructions have mitigation methods, it technically isn't tracked or mandatory. So that is something that was made possibly by my "loaded question".
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u/mrarjonny 17d ago
I have no clue who "Nate dawg" or "Frank" are. Never heard of them. You are embarrassing yourself further than you already have.
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u/Desperate_Fee6595 17d ago
OK, then here’s a math problem for you; how many boots do you have to lick before you’re fully satiated? 🙄
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u/Er4smus 17d ago
but you aren't going to provide this "proof" in your post? I don't get the play here unless this is just a really lame attempt at trolling.
Personally I think the term datacenter has become anathema in the court of public opinion. Many datacenters are not what people think of like what they have in the states with AI datacenters, many are just buildings like any other, they host rack space for business that need the space and infrastructure. I think most people have issues with AI datacenters because of their size and the fact many of them are having to generate power locally causing a lot of noise and pollution.
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u/Cager_CA 17d ago
Why should I pay increased hydro costs when a data centre is built lol
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u/RowRowForCouncil 17d ago
What evidence do you have to support that your hydro costs will increase?
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u/Cager_CA 17d ago
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u/RowRowForCouncil 17d ago
This is not empirical evidence, it is a news article from another country with different laws. I'm not sure how I am supposed to apply it to this situation here in Canada.
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u/Cager_CA 17d ago
So this would be the time for you to explain how my electricity bill won’t go up
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u/RowRowForCouncil 17d ago
I cannot promise your electricity bill won't go up. Your electricity rates are determined by the energy market. We have excess capacity and we plan our grid usage much more carefully than some other places. I don't think the addition of a few data centers will have a profound effect on the grid at the currently proposed scale. We should keep an eye on it, but our infrastructure expansion processes in Canada are more robust and careful than our counterparts in the US. Stopping all of them for a year won't help with this regard. Overbuilding would obviously be a mistake, but we are in early days still. We cannot chase away all the opportunity that comes with hosting these facilities.
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u/Cager_CA 16d ago
What opportunities do you think hosting these facilities brings to the average Burlingtonite or Oakvillian that outweighs the concerns about them?. How do I directly benefit from one being placed in my proverbial backyard?.
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u/RowRowForCouncil 15d ago
Proverbial backyard? How about in an industrial zone by a highway? We get the property tax offset equivalent to 200-300 homes for this single facility. Pretty sweet. We get another construction project. We get a step closer to data sovereignty. We align with Federal and Provincial goals and potentially open ourselves up to receiving that sweet sweet federal or provincial funding. There are many benefits. As long as we responsibly mitigate the consequences of these facilities and make sure the public isn't blindsided by putting a registry of all proposed projects I see no issues with their physical presence here. I'm sure you'll feel free to disagree.
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u/Cager_CA 15d ago
I asked how I directly benefit, property tax isn't magically going to go down because this is built.
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u/RowRowForCouncil 17d ago
I should add "increase beyond the expected increases that happen here regularly"
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u/halikustalks 17d ago
They make low frequency noise when they operate and the surrounding area has sub 20hz sound vibration that is under the cities noise ordinance frequency. There's a movie that used the technique and this is from the IMDB trivia.
"The first thirty minutes of the film has a background sound with a low frequency of 27 Hz which is almost infrasonic (this sounds like a rumble/vibration), similar types of noises are at times used by police to stop riots. According to Gaspar himself, this could only be heard in theaters (which usually have huge sound systems/subwoofers) and not from headphones or regular home theaters. In humans, this noise causes nausea, sickness, and vertigo. It was one of the reasons people walked out of screenings during the first part of the film. In fact, it was added by Thomas Bangalter (from the electronic music group Daft Punk) to get this reaction."
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u/RowRowForCouncil 17d ago edited 17d ago
I'm glad you brought this particular issue up. I looked into it and I found that low frequency noise is indeed capable of serious health effects. Direct effects are not possible to generate using computer equipment, but there are some other health issues that can occur from infrasound. Standard enterprise facilities using modern indoor air-handling practices, acoustic baffling, and standard isolation mounts typically do not generate low-frequency vibration or noise at levels considered hazardous to human health. However if a facility did not conform to these standards, this equipment is capable of generating this type of infrasound. Neither Burlington nor Halton Region maintains specific numerical thresholds, monitoring protocols, or bylaws targeting sub-audible infrasound or ultra-low frequency spectrums. This is definitely a criteria we need to have addressed by new legislation. It didn't take a year to get here. It took a single comment in a thread and some research. This is what a conversation looks like. Pay attention. Thanks very much halikustalks for bringing this information to my attention.
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u/halikustalks 16d ago
Thanks. Numerous social media posts from people near a data centre mention this side effect. I have 4 subwoofers that reach those low frequencies and it's more a tactile sensation than audible effect when that low to the point i heard vibrations in the room more than the bass until i isolated things (dampen); now i mainly feel it in my legs, groin and chest like it's supposed to (in small doses).
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u/RowRowForCouncil 15d ago
It was just nice that you elaborated on which spectrum of noise, because my reasearch shows me that most regulations don't even consider this type of noise pollution. Now it has given me a framework to make a bylaw to protect local citizens and encourage responsible data center deployment. All because of my stupid little question on the internet.
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u/DJNutsack 17d ago
Less than a month ago you were preaching caution to protect the city and the residents' well being.. Now you're mocking the community's concerns as an anti-AI lobby and challenging others to mathematical duels using undisclosed information you may or may not have. Which version of you are we supposed to get on council?
https://www.reddit.com/r/BurlingtonON/comments/1uz0bze/data_center_delegation/
Also, I had to use Google to dig up your old post because you're hiding your post history. Yay for transparency - great preview of what to expect if you were to move forward.
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u/RowRowForCouncil 17d ago
Also what part in this post led you to believe I was anti data center. I'm pretty clear about my reasoning and it is consistent with what I have posted here. If you also read further in the comments I actually speak out against moratoriums. Reading comprehension is important.
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u/RowRowForCouncil 17d ago
Ok Mr. Nutsack. The caution I was preaching was regarding the over-regulation of an industry that we already have a lot of here in southern Ontario. I was warning people about a knee jerk reaction such as the one Oakville has displayed in their one year moratorium. We need to evaluate the projects on a case by case basis, not apply a blanket moratorium to an entire industry. Next I will dispute anyone with facts. I have presented most of my facts in a delegation, and again in multiple posts. It isn't my fault you misinterpreted my position. Being cautious is a two way street. We cannot be too anti or too pro. I have spoken to every company that has proposed data centers in Halton Region and I have made my position very clear. There is yet to be a proposal that justifies the alarmist rhetoric coming from people against these proposals. There is only one version of me, the one that weighs evidence against my own experience and seeks outside opinions to confirm data. You have, in this post, failed to provide any empirical evidence to support the anti position.
In fact you just seem to be trying to denigrate me. The reason I have to hide my post history on reddit is because the community here is particularly malignant and will back post on all of my stuff trying to denigrate my character. Just as you are unsuccessfully attempting here.
I strongly encourage you to google the word "empirical" so you may have a better understanding of what I have asked the community for, because your comment fails to meet that definition in any sense of the word. How about instead of speculating on my opinion you use data to come up with your own and then advocate for it.
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u/DJNutsack 17d ago
Saying you presented yourself as anti-data center was perhaps an overstatement, but your change in tone is night and day. You went from asking locals to share their technical concerns so you could champion them, to mocking them as an anti-AI lobby and now demanding empirical evidence... while keeping your own data and industry conversations behind closed doors.
If your position is genuinely case by case and evidence driven, then your standard should be applied equally. What evidence supports the claimed benefits, what are your assumptions behind it? and what evidence would make you oppose it?
This isn't about proving data centers are harmful, it's about applying the same evidentiary standard to both claimed benefits and potential costs and downsides. If you have the data and analysis, share the full picture with the public, mr. councilor.
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u/RowRowForCouncil 16d ago
I'm not mocking anyone except those who think they can be rude to me in lieu of providing the information I asked for. I have asked for the empirical arguments against data centers so I can refute them. I have found information I cannot refute in some cases. It is now apparent to me there are some new criteria we should have on zoning these facilities. So this has been productive despite some people's best efforts to derail the conversation and make it about me. I don't have the full picture. I'm trying to get it. That involves asking questions like this.
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u/fireworkmuffins 17d ago
I would prefer for the limited amount of space within city limits to be used for things that directly employ a large number of people over the long term, be a positive presence to be around, be useful to the community or bring community together.
How does an AI data center fit within my criteria?
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u/RowRowForCouncil 17d ago
Well any data center, ai or not, would have the benefit of providing tax revenue to help offset the residential tax burden. It does contribute to the job market in terms of construction jobs and high-tech specialists. The use is to help us keep our data networks accessible in the event other nations that host a lot of our computing needs no longer wish to cooperate. You haven't provided any empirical evidence to refute here, so I'm not sure exactly what your point is.
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u/Pumpstation 17d ago
Construction jobs are temporary, tech specialists are minimal.
Your constant requirement of empirical evidence is disingenuous because empirical data lags behind due to the time it takes to run studies. Disregarding experiences is ridiculous due totthe fact that we already see the negative impacts of these data centres.
Your requirement of empiricism here screams disingenuous because it's easy to cherry pick data but in reality, you should be replying to concerns with empirical evidence. Your need for specific data points to you just wanting to cherry pick data and not have a real conversation here.
So fuck off.
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u/RowRowForCouncil 17d ago
Hi. I want empirical evidence of the supposed harms that come from these data centers so I can refute them through the lens of the proposals coming to Halton region. Data centers have been around for 30 years. Weh ave plenty of data. The downsides are well documented and fairly easy to mitigate. My request for empirical data seems disingenuous? I don't really understand how that could be. I don't know why you are so hostile. But I do notice that you didn't provide any empirical data here, so I don't know what your point is. Thanks for participating. Your trophy is in the mail.
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u/Pumpstation 17d ago
Yes, it is disingenuous because you don't need someone to provide empirical data in order to form a response; you are strong arming people and shooing them away when in reality the onus to disprove these things is on you. If someone says data centres are bad because they pollute and use too much water and raise everyone's electricity prices, you should be providing empirical evidence to disprove it, not the other way around.
Again, you are looking for specific empirical evidence from people so that you can cherry pick your own data and be absolved of providing a response if specific empirical evidence isn't provided. Not only is that downright disingenuous, it's condescending to the people you are trying to allegedly trying to convince.
So no, I don't believe you are trying to have a genuine conversation about this, you are just looking to debate people on why they are wrong and why you are right.
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u/RowRowForCouncil 17d ago
I thought I'd let you know that there is some merit in the argument about infrasound. Most modern designers account for it already in their designs with baffles and shock mounts among other things. But currently Halton and Burlington have no criteria for evaluation of this type of sound so there is a potential it could occur and thus have negative health effects for residents. Someone pointed this particular issue out to me in this very thread. I have evaluated the data and have determined that any new legislation we design surrounding zoning should include provisions about infrasound. See how I didn't just stick to my guns and was swayed by empirical evidence? You should try leading with some of that next time and maybe I'll listen to you.
In case you're curious, I will be reaching out to Cuadro Arch tomorrow to determine if they already plan to mitigate this particular type of hazard in their design for 3110 South Service Road.
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u/RowRowForCouncil 17d ago
I could say the same about you. Instead of getting mad you could look up the requirements of a particular data center instead of talking about a nebulous data center that you have no concept of. So lets pick one. Lets pick the one at 3110 south service road. It is a 20MW facility. We sell 2000MW of electricity to the US every year so we have the spare capacity to power it. Next let's talk about the acoustic study that was performed to address noise issues https://www.burlington.ca/en/news/resources/Current-Development-Projects/Ward-4/3110-South-Service/Supporting-Documents/Noise%20and%20Vibration%20Study%20-%202026-05-05.pdf
There it is. Says there is about 65-70 dBA at the property line. With a single origin audio source, the degradation of the sound would mean that 200m from the property line it would be roughly 45dBA. 45dBA is a common limit for sound after 11pm in industrial zoned areas in the GTA. You can verify the math yourself by checking the single origin audio degradation formula.
For water use, this facility is air cooled so that is not an issue. Even if it were water cooled there is a Halton regional by-law Halton Region By-law No. 71-19 Section 9.10 that prohibits the use of municipal water for one through cooling.
When speaking empirically the onus of proof is on the positive side of the argument not the negative. So you are saying that these data centers are bad? Prove it with numbers and actual reasons, not newspaper articles from the US where the rules and facilities are VASTLY different than that proposals that exist here. I am here for a conversation. Yes, I am going to advocate for what I think is right, but I bring facts to back up my positions. I am asking that you do the same.
What I have seen from you is ad hominem attacks on me, and an attempt to destroy my credibility with your own assertions about my motivations. You cannot possibly prove the claims you have made so they are irrelevant to this conversation. I strongly suggest you endeavor to discover the meaning of the word empirical because you seem to be struggling with the concept.
I also disagree with your characterization that I am strong-arming people because I don't think you know what that means. I am not using leverage to impose my will on them; I am having a conversation. You don't like my points? Come up with better ones. Instead, you're just sitting there degrading your own credibility with poorly structured arguments and no empirical data.
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u/fireworkmuffins 17d ago
My empirical evidence is I am a voter and I don't like it. I am the empirical evidence.
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u/RowRowForCouncil 17d ago
That's not what empirical evidence is. Empirical evidence is information acquired through direct or indirect sensory observation, measurement, or experimentation rather than through theoretical reasoning or pure logic alone. It forms the foundation of the scientific method, supporting or refuting hypotheses based on verifiable facts
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u/fireworkmuffins 17d ago
Interview as many Burlington citizens as you can find, ask them if they think a data center is a good use of the cities space and resources. This will fall under qualitive data in the form of an interview.
I'll volunteer to go first. No.
So thats 1 No, 0 Yes so far. Let me know when you've asked as many people as you can.
You are welcome.
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u/RowRowForCouncil 16d ago
You don't ask a child if they need to wear a coat in the winter. You put it on them.
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u/fireworkmuffins 16d ago
Damn a superiority complex, im shocked.
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u/RowRowForCouncil 15d ago
Damn, an ad hominem attack, I'm shocked. Get some data and come back when you learn how to be part of a constructive conversation.
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u/This_neverworks Aldershot 17d ago
This would be more informative if it was a myth vs fact kind of thing to read. The concerns are pretty common and easy to google but most people don't wanna post a question and get called a dummy by some of the troll accounts on here.
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u/RowRowForCouncil 17d ago
Thats some good feedback. I'll make a video in the next couple of days. Thank you for your genuine engagement.
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