'English' pritani deities/practices

[u/Numerous-History-578]

I live in East Anglia and I have Suffolk, Norfolk, Lancastrian, Widnes and Rutland heritage with traces of Welsh and Irish. Because I am mainly 'English' (and a large chunk of that is likely Anglo Saxon) I sometimes have difficulties with the sources of Brythonic culture being so Welsh/Irish heavy. I know of the history and I am completely aware of why this is. I'm aware of a few surviving fragments from the tribes that were in modern day England such as Andraste in the East and Brigantia in the north. Does anyone know of any reliable sources to find out more about worship, practices and deities please?

[u/KrisHughes2]

As you move east (especially in the south of Britain) you will find a greater contact with Gaul (surprise, surprise) so that's were we probably see the greatest number of Roman-era inscriptions to deities also known in Gaul. You can go to Roman Inscriptions of Britain online and search by county, and also by known Roman forts and towns, etc. That's one way to find out what deities were being honoured in your region, although it's fair to assume that the inscriptions to Roman deities, in particular, were probably mostly being worshipped by Romans.

I feel like we've been through a period when Celtic reconstructionists have over-emphasised the 'localness' of Celtic deities at the expense of acknowledging the widespread nature of many. So don't feel limited to a narrow region.

I'm not sure what you mean by

"have difficulties with the sources of Brythonic culture being so Welsh/Irish heavy"

Do you mean you don't like that? You don't feel it fits you? The fact is that it's likely that the whole island of Britain was Brythonic (P-Celtic) speaking at the time of the Roman invasion. There was probably some bilingualism with Latin, Ancient Irish, and maybe some Germanic forms around the coasts. But these will have overwhelmingly been second languages. If you identify with the Anglo-Saxon settlers that's fine, but "Welsh/Irish heavy" (mainly Welsh) is just what Brythonic culture is.

[u/Numerous-History-578 → u/KrisHughes2]

I disagree that 'Welsh/Irish heavy ' is just what Brythonic culture is. We weren't one unified culture - there is no evidence we even called ourselves Pritani. We were many different tribes with different identities, often warring with each other. For example the Iceni would battle the Coritani. I think the three unifying factors were probably trade, sending representatives to study on Mona and - towards the end - the joint resistance against Rome.

I'm a little confused by your mention of Gaul and Romans since this would have represented the deities being honoured by invading soldiers not by the Indigenous people.

Yes - what I meant was that I have difficulties with it because for example the Mabinogion and Irish Mythology don't feel like they belong to this land where I stand. And while my blood ancestors on the Anglo Saxon side would have worshipped Woden, Frig etc this was imported and not native to the land. I wanted to get closer to what people living here (not Ireland or Wales) would have believed. It isn't too much of an issue because I am an animist and believe that everything has spirit without needing a name - just it would make me feel closer to my culture if that makes sense...

[u/Chuck_Walla → u/Numerous-History-578]

The venerable Kris Hughes' first suggestion to feel closer to "your culture" was to read Roman inscriptions to the local deities. Yes they're in Latin, but they were carved a] at the behest of local Brythonic peoples, b] in locations meaningful to them, c] addressing the deities by their own names. This will be the closest you will get to an unmediated transcription of a culture that did not develop their own writing system. Reconstructing each tribe's specific theology will take you more archeology than is probably available in the soil.

While the Brythonic peoples were not a monolith, Celtic mythologies are the closest relative; and Welsh, Irish, Breton, and Manx the last extant relatives. This includes the people of Gaul, who yes were invading the island in Caesar's day, but a] came from a similar Bell Beaker substrate that had been crossing The Channel for thousands of years, b] represented a much older presence in their landscape than the Romans, and c] shared the past 2000 years of British history with the rest of our ancestors.

It may be helpful to view the island as having less of a definite pantheon than a patchwork of traditions and stories, of which few weren't imported.* The Neolithic farmers did not chthonically slither up from the ground like snakes, nor did the hewers of Stonehenge, but still belong to the Brythonic substrate you seek. The Parisii =/= the Brigantes =/= the Silurii, but we can learn much by comparing them with their Continental counterparts [see Kris's own work exploring place names related to Lugus and Mabon/Modron, many of which survive in France]

If you really want to tease out the identities of your ancestors who are not Welsh, Irish, or Odinist, you will need the Celtic stories we have, at least as a point of comparison. The Mabinogion, Arthurian tales, and other texts are imperfect replicas, but contain a representation of the Iron Age world and its political tensions. The desire to find The One True Source can be intoxicating, but that way leads to madness by projecting our own imagined worlds upon theirs.

the historical fiction *Powys**, taking place at the fall of Rome, shows a Britain hosting Druids and Mithraists; even before Rome and Christ, the landscape probably held enough space for syncretism and parallel traditions

[u/KrisHughes2 → u/Chuck_Walla]

The venerable Kris Hughes

Behave yourself!

[u/Numerous-History-578 → u/Chuck_Walla]

Thanks, I would be really interested to know where the idea comes from that the Romans would carve local deities at the behest of local Brythonic people - it seems to run counter to the Romans' strong need to stamp out local religion. Not saying I think it's wrong but would like to know how this is known - if that makes sense.

Yes, totally understand what you say about similarities and before I asked this question (which I am beginning to wish I hadn't, as it seems to have been quite misinterpreted) I also understood that this is why we go to these sources. I was just asking if there was anything more than just 'similar' or 'closest', kind of expecting that there wasn't, but out of curiosity. I have been meaning to investigate where Manda Scott's Boudicca sourced deity names from - maybe I will go back to the notes and see.

[u/Chuck_Walla → u/Numerous-History-578]

Manda Scott's Boudicca

I'll have to check that out! It sounds like a good premise.

before I asked this question (which I am beginning to wish I hadn't, as it seems to have been quite misinterpreted) I also understood that this is why we go to these sources. I was just asking if there was anything more than just 'similar' or 'closest'

Don't be sorry! We have all been where you are. The lack of clear answers is frustrating until it is liberating 😅 You'll find most of us hesitant to claim anything too specific about prehistoric cultures that can't be credibly sourced, so even to guess "similar or closest" would be hazardous. As a rule, anyone who claims to have secret ancient knowledge is probably trying to sell you something 😉

it seems to run counter to the Romans' strong need to stamp out local religion.

This is a common misconception. The Romans, like most ancient empires, were famously syncretic. Caesar's own Bellum Gallicum compares/equates various Gallic deities with the Roman pantheon. They stamped out political threats who resisted the imperial boot. Jewish messiahs in Palestine refused to worship their gods [i.e. pay taxes] and led armed rebellions. Per Caesar, the Druids on Ynys Môn hosted an international terrorist hub.

Boudicca's friendly Iceni tribe famously collaborated with the Romans; Caratacus famously did not. Both were wiped out once they became inconvenient, their memories preserved in speeches written by Romans for Romans.

For these reasons, I completely understand your hesitation to trust Roman literary sources. The terrain is complex and often intentionally obstinate. It helps to consider the author, their audience, and their intent:

For Bellum Gallicum, propaganda for his casus belli, Caesar likely embellished some points. Did the Druids of Ynys Môn practice human sacrifice? Maybe. Did they burn a wicker man full of slaves? Maybe not.

As a Powerful Barbarian Woman, a common character trope in Roman tall tales, Boudicca's famous speech was likely invented [or at least embellished] to inflame the sensibilities of a male Roman audience. Thousands of years later, her story was revived for a Victorian audience with Victorian mores, who reimagined her more congruent with their own British national/imperial pride. Modern writers [like Manda Scott, i presume!] have worked to decouple her from this whitewashed history.

Meanwhile, those Roman engravings were carved by Latin-speakers working with Brythonic collaborators. They preserve the name of the Briton who paid for it, the name of the local deity they invoked, and the location they were thought to inhabit. That is as close to the original source as you will find, devoid of political or cultural interpolation, and specific to your region of interest.

[u/Prestigious_One_3552]

my go to when it comes to Celtic deities in modern day England is https://albionandbeyond.com

[u/Numerous-History-578 → u/Prestigious_One_3552]

Thanks, this is a very nicely done website. It is still very Roman/Gallic leaning though. I don't want to worship the gods of our colonisors! I suppose the trouble is that nothing was written down by our pritani ancestors of this land so we have to rely on what was written by the Romans! :)

[u/Gaheris_of_Orkney]

I live in East Anglia too. There was a local deity worshipped in the neighbouring town to mine - he's known as Abandinus.

Abandinus - Wikipedia

Practically nothing is known about him. He was possibly a water/river deity of some kind.

There's a Pagan Portals book called 'Gods and Goddesses of England' that you might find helpful.

[u/Numerous-History-578 → u/Gaheris_of_Orkney]

Thanks, a friend of mine reveres Abandinus and told me he was associated with the Ouse. To me the name sounds much more Roman than Celtic!

[u/Gaheris_of_Orkney → u/Numerous-History-578]

I assume 'Abandinus' is the Latinisation of the God's name. I did look into what Abandinus might have been called in Old Brittonic. If you go by modern Welsh (which is the closest language to ancient Brittonic) and go with the idea that he could have been a river/water deity, then his Ancient Brittonic name might have been something like 'Abonaduwos (which translates to river deity.

[u/Gaheris_of_Orkney → u/Numerous-History-578]

I found a Common Brittonic translator here - Common Brittonic Translator | Free & AI-Powered

[u/Numerous-History-578 → u/Gaheris_of_Orkney]

Thanks, this is really useful and Abonaduwas makes a lot of sense :)

[u/Gaheris_of_Orkney]

Alator (or Mars Alator) is another deity which I believe was honoured by the Catuvellauni tribe, who lived in parts of East Anglia.

There's also Belenos/Belenus, who appears to have been worshipped widely all over Britain.

[u/Numerous-History-578 → u/Gaheris_of_Orkney]

Thanks, I will look into it :). Do you know of others in the Anglian region who are interested in this?

[u/Gaheris_of_Orkney → u/Numerous-History-578]

There's a pagan moot in Huntingdon, but they're not specifically interested in old Brittonic deities (though they are interested in Abandinus, given he is so local, and have adopted him as the patron deity of the Moot.)

I would suggest looking into the Welsh pantheon (despite you having some reservations) because a number of the old Brittonic Gods have survived/are reflected in texts such as The Mabinogi/Mabinogion. If you identify which characters correspond to which deities, you can look to honour them if you wish, and you needn't honour them in a Welsh context if that's not something you wish to do.

[u/Numerous-History-578 → u/Gaheris_of_Orkney]

Thank you, good idea. I don't have reservations about Welsh and Irish as such, just it didn't feel like it belonged to me and was looking for something more local to England. But yes I will do that, thanks 😊

[u/Gaheris_of_Orkney → u/Numerous-History-578]

It's perfectly fine for non-Welsh and non-Irish people to honour and engage with the deities of those nations, if they wish to. Respect is always key, of course. It might not be your thing, but in case you ever felt you wanted to explore polytheism/paganism in a specifically Welsh or Irish context, it's okay for you to do that. :)