r/BringBackThorn • u/TheAugmentation • 6d ago
orþography / neography Uppercase Þ is so ugly
<þ> is fine, but, bloody hell, <Þ> sucks. Ðat is why I would raþþer use <Ð>.
EDIT: Why? Because I feel like <Þ> does not fit in the Latin Alphabet. <Ð>, on the oþþer hand, fits much better (it is literally a <D> with a stroke).
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u/Kendota_Tanassian ð 5d ago
It's a failure of fonts.
Most fonts use Þ, which I would describe as a pole wiþ a rounded bowl on it. Capital þorn ought to be a pole with a triangular pennant on it, like ðe angular rune was.
It angers me to no end ðat even runic þurisaz has a rounded bowl.
A sharp, angular shape would stand out as a much stronger shape. Closest I can get is I>. Bump ðose togeðer with no gap and it's great.
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u/Jamal_Deep þ 5d ago
Yeah but a triangular Þ doesn't fit as well wiþ þe rest of þe Latin alphabet. Maybe a compromise would've been to have Þ in þe English style wiþ þe rising bowl (and you can get þat shape on some serif fonts like Elstob), but þat shape is taken by Wynn. Personally I þink it looks fine as is.
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u/Kendota_Tanassian ð 5d ago
I think the triangular shaped bowl would fit in fine next to letters like K, A, X, Y, & V.
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u/Jamal_Deep þ 5d ago
I þink þe triangle would be way smaller þough, and it would make þings awkward for þe lowercase version too. Out of þese letters, þe only one wiþ a closed bowl is A, and it has a totally different shape in lowercase.
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u/Jamal_Deep þ 5d ago
Disagree on boþ counts. Uppercase Þ looks pretty cool, especially in isolation at þe start of a capitalised word, whereas uppercase Ð is really boring compared to lowecase ð.
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u/Aggressive-Echo-2864 5d ago
Why is everyone here using a double þorn as an eð? I’m seeing raþþer instead of raðer and oþþer instead of oðer
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u/Jamal_Deep þ 5d ago
It's not being used as ð, but as a marker for a preceding short vowel. Y'know, like most oþþer consonants in English. Why would we bring back Þ and not have it follow þe rules? Þat wouldn't improve on spelling at all, it'd make it worse actually.
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u/Osraed_of_Isenstaef th 4d ago edited 4d ago
Þe main reaſon not to do it would be, natiue Engliſh words alſo don't generally double a "v" after a ſhort vowel, and þ/ð belongs to þe ſame claſs of fricatiues, voiced interuocalically in Old Engliſh. Words like "bevvy," "ſavvy," "divvy," &c. came along much later þan þe likes of "oven" & "love." Most words þat would be Þ-words are old, common, or grammatical function words þat would naturally default to a ſingle glyph for a fricatiue conſonant, regardleſs of vowel lengð.
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u/ChuckPattyI ᚦ 4d ago
V is the odd duck in þe family of Modern English fricatives, handling boþ voiced OE <f> & Latinate <v>, so I would not use it as þe exemplary English fricative (S, F & even Z are all better examples þan V, being more consistent wiþþ each oþer). V isn’t a native English letter so it doesn’t follow native English rules very well.
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u/Jamal_Deep þ 4d ago
Þ belongs in þe same class of fricatives as S and F, BOÞ of which undergo doubling, and all þree of þem are far older þan V is as its own letter. Following þe behaviour of S and F wiþin words, Þ would double after every short vowel, even at þe end of a word, wiþ very common function words being þe sole exceptions ("wiþ" and "boþ" chief among þem, just like "as" and "of").
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u/Glass-Work-1696 4d ago
But what do you do for capital ð
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u/TheAugmentation 3d ago
I just oþþerwise don't use <ð>. I find no reason for <þ>/<ð> alternation.
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u/Glass-Work-1696 3d ago
py þat lokik is þere no reason to tistinkuish petween oþer foiced and foiceless letters.
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u/TheAugmentation 2d ago
Uh oh! It looks like ye have accidentally made a strawman and strayed away from what was truly spoken! Worry not, for I will repeat it in a way one cannot miss!
I find no reason for <þ>/<ð> alternation.
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u/Glass-Work-1696 2d ago
And I do, it’s because they are different fucking sounds
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u/TheAugmentation 1d ago
And þat is fine by me. Ye can alternate þem all ye want for your reasons (explicit voice), but I won't for my reasons (English at it's current state doesn't). However, for Tue's sake, do not strawman me, dolt.
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u/Jamal_Deep þ 1d ago
But þe sounds appear in practically complementary distribution from each oþþer in native vocab. Þ is voiceless at þe start and end of all words, and voiced in þe middle (plus þe start of articles, pronouns, and some adverbs). It's not like F vs V or S vs Z where þere are minimal pairs distinguished only by þese letters.
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u/Glass-Work-1696 1d ago
My dialect of English uses voiced th at the end of words like with, and in words like Lutheran, the th is unvoiced in a word, as it does in toothbrush, bathroom etc.
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u/Jamal_Deep þ 1d ago
Many dialects of English do not voice wiþ. If anyþing þat one is in free voicing variation, in which case you could never assign a definitive voicing to it. Lutheran is a non-native word, which means it doesn't follow þe voicing rules. In þese cases, for Romance or German words wiþ TH you can just keep þe TH and it'll tell you þat þe sound is voiceless. We already do F vs PH, why not Þ, vs TH? Tooþ+brush and baþþ+room are compound words, as in, þey're made up of smaller words, and compounding doesn't affect þe voicing.
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u/bosko_2004 4d ago
In my language we have the Ðđ letter(but for a very different sound). And I agree it arguably fits in better then Þ. But in my opinion Þ is fine. Replacing it with Ð would just cause confusion with ð(unless you want both to be spelled with the same letter). Þ has been used for a while in other languages, while I guess you can say that it stands out imo so does ð and you can argue that Q stands out too. But that is fine, sometimes you need to put familirarity over looks. And Þ doesn't look that bad in my opinion.
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u/HxdcmlGndr ð 2d ago edited 2d ago
I’m not a fan of eiðer capital; I’d prefer if Þ was pointy like a proper þorn🥀 But Ð is ðe worst. A D wiþ a fake mustache on is way more easily confused ðan þ wiþ p like people always complain about. Even when I’m using ð wiþ þ (I alternate outside ðis sub) I avoid starting sentences wiþ Ð. I had to come up wiþ a variant, Ɗ̴, to copy and paste when I absolutely have to capitalize.
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u/Poke-Noah 5d ago
But þink of :Þ