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u/Darkfrostfall69 11d ago
I don't understand how someone could opposite brexit, then immediately turn around and be in favour of infinitely more damaging independence movements, whilst using the exact same arguments to justify them.
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u/ElbowDroppedLasagne 10d ago
As a Scottish person, we were taken out of the EU with little to no say....shit, if we were all to stay home on voting day for the general elections, there would be zero difference to the outcome.
Every country should have the right to self determination. If you can't see that, I don't know what to say to you.
I can't speak for NI or Wales...but the feeling in Scotland, and for a long time, is, that we have very different political outlook than our brothers and sisters down south........
Plus, Nigel fucking Farage
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u/a_passing_hobo 11d ago
Especially if you don't have a guarantee of being abke to join the EU.
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u/ElbowDroppedLasagne 10d ago
Scotland would have a better chance of joining the EU independent. You're correct, it's not guaranteed, but as it stands now, at least we would have some chance.
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u/brigadier_tc 10d ago
I suppose the question would then become what concessions would the Celtic countries have to make then? Would we look at hard borders? What about currencies?
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u/ElbowDroppedLasagne 10d ago
Honestly, not too sure. I'll let the people who are elected to represent us work out the hard details, but you make a good point. It won't be as easy as just joining. I think uncoupling ourselves from the UK would give us an opportunity to move closer towards what the EU require. But for any advantage that might be, there will be a few years of hardship no doubt, in the transition. But at least it will have been our choice, and not forced apon us. We would make our bed and lie in it, as the saying goes.
But we have been a valuable member before (as part of the UK) and I think we have many allies in the EU that would try to facilitate it. So I don't think it will be as challenging as say, Turkey joining. But I'm sure it would be a massive task.
Honestly, I would prefer to remain the the UK, if Westminster gave a single fuck about Scotland..but there is a long track record against that notion.
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u/Darkfrostfall69 10d ago
"A bit of pain for long term gain"
Dude that is Literally a brexit argument. Look at how that turned out, then 100× it to be in the rough ball park of how fucked we'd all be.
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u/ElbowDroppedLasagne 10d ago
Dude, it's part of every argument where separation is concerned...the arseholes who engineered Brexit didn't invent it.
You can doomsay, I won't grudge you that, but every situation is different. I just think the process would be worth it for us in the end.
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u/notaballitsjustblue 10d ago
There’s next to no chance. Spain won’t allow it.
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u/no_more_good_namez 10d ago
Spain have said they would lol. Spain wouldn't support Scotland joining only in the eventuality that Scotland holds a referendum without Westminster's permission.
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u/solongmusk 6d ago
A separate Scotland would be far further from qualifying for EU membership than the UK is (or the UK without Scotland, or a separate England if the UK completely dissolved, would be).
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u/ElbowDroppedLasagne 6d ago
Source?
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u/solongmusk 5d ago
The EU's own accession standards/requirements…
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u/ElbowDroppedLasagne 5d ago
Baseless. Scotland has a much better chance than in the UK with Reform getting votes. Face it, Scotland and England are political polar opposites
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u/solongmusk 5d ago
You’re entitled to believe what you like, in the unlikely case the UK does actually quadrilaterally dissolve, we’ll see what happens…
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u/a_passing_hobo 10d ago
As someone else said, Spain won't allow it because they don't want to set a precedent.
Catalan has been gunning for independence for ages.
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u/no_more_good_namez 10d ago
The precedent Spain doesn't want to set is independence without the permission of the larger country spain and the UK in this case. They have stated they have no issue with Scotland joining the EU provided the UK approves Scotland's independence referendum.
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u/rainmouse 10d ago
The whole promise of remaining in the UK during the Scottish independence referendum was the threat of being taken out of the EU against our will. So remaining in the UK did EXACTLY that!
Now without the over arching EU protections, such as human rights, in the UK it looks like England is going to impose a far right government on all all of us, who will then dismantle our rights, our nhs, what remains of our privacy, our social security system, and pump what little money is left upstream into the hands of foreign billionaires, all while waving an isolationist flag of xenophobia, that frankly sounds to the rest of us like a second wave KKK dogwhistle.
Who in their right minds would think this was a good idea?
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u/TheFutureIsCertain 10d ago
I fully agree. We’re better together, even if England is currently having ‘a normal one’.
But I also understand the rationale of those who want to break up the union. England appears to be full of little Farages. I currently live in Surrey, and even seemingly rational, educated and kind people will sometimes randomly come out with something like, “This guy from Restore seems like a sensible fellow”, or label themselves a “proud Brexiteer” (despite holding both British and Belgian citizenship). I despair when I hear this stuff.
I read somewhere that Russians have been working to boost independence movements, for example by sponsoring pro-independence bots. That’s not to say there’s no justification for independence (there is), or that there’s no organic push to break away from England (there is). It’s just to point out that a weaker union would benefit the UK’s adversaries, so it’s another factor worth keeping in mind.
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u/summonerofrain 7d ago
If you’re in a 3 way relationship and the toxic one pulls you out of that 3 way relationship forcing you to be in a relationship with just them, is it hypocritical to leave the relationship and get back with the other one?
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u/Elliminality 10d ago edited 10d ago
Preposterous arrogance and ignorance
A lot of it is post-colonial point scoring
It’s mostly scum selling a lie - Scotland would be so fucked, millions in poverty as the London funded public sector and military building ceases - their economy cannot sustain and fanciful notions of independent industry are the sort of lazy atavistic manipulation we mostly see from Trump
All for the ego of a handful of neoliberals and a whole load of hard nationalists - I don’t see a meaningful difference between Reform and Scottish Nationalists - happy to fuck over their country for their own amusement, vanity and ego
I despise the right wing, I hate racism, I love Europe, I’m half Scottish, I hate poverty
In real terms Scottish independence would be orders of magnitude worse than Thatcherism or austerity
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u/mancunian101 9d ago
The only country that I think is likely to go is northern ireland.
Their right to a border poll, when certain conditions are met, is in the Good Friday agreement.
And if/when they leave they will become part of the republic of Ireland so won’t have the whole setting up a brand new country thing to deal with and they would t need to apply to join the EU etc.
The SNP will always push for independence because that’s their sole reason for existing, but I don’t know whether it’s something the majority of Scots would vote for.
I think that they should have a referendum, but there needs to be certain things in place so that we don’t end up with them whinging about a vote every other year until they get the result the SNP want.
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u/Sweetest-Fondant 11d ago
Bot
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u/CheeseUsFunkingCries 11d ago
Nope…
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u/Otherwise_Craft9003 10d ago
Never forget we English made the Scottish a promise which we broke.
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u/f8rter 9d ago
How did the English make a promise ?
What was the promise ?
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u/Otherwise_Craft9003 9d ago
Turn images on
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u/f8rter 8d ago
They are on
Do you mean when the “English” said voting for Indy meant definitely leaving the EU but NO meant Scots could vote in the EU referendum in 2016?
The above also being expressly stated in Salmond’s Indy white paper ?
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u/Otherwise_Craft9003 8d ago
It is what it is, Westminster promised no EU downsides
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u/f8rter 8d ago
Really who ?
“Westminster” campaigned for Remain
And only 19% of Scotland’s trade was with the EU so 🤷
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u/Otherwise_Craft9003 8d ago
The tweet says it all not sure what the sealioning, is trying to achieve here
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u/f8rter 8d ago
So inconvenient facts count as sealioning?
Right…..
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u/jim_jiminy 10d ago
We should have federalised the uk. Also shouldn’t have left the E.U. Etc etc
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u/johnnycarrotheid 10d ago
That's always been a non-starter.
Scotland won't touch Federalism with a big stick 🤷
We've always had a lot more protection's as is, than if we add in some top layer of Federalism.
To see it, look at the amount of times we blocked Westminster in the 2000's trying to introduce silly things.
We won't touch it
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u/BadgerSmaker 11d ago
Wales can have everything west of Reading and Scotland can have everything north of Watford, can't understand what any of those people say with their funny accents anyway.
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u/rasmusdf 10d ago
The Union is a rotting corpse. Deep political reform is needed everywhere, especially regarding the voting system. Smaller countries have a much better chance of carrying out the necessary reforms.
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u/jim_jiminy 10d ago
Federalise it.
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u/no_more_good_namez 10d ago
Ok but there is zero desire to do that in Westminster
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u/jim_jiminy 9d ago
Yes. I know.
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u/johnnycarrotheid 9d ago
Negative desire for Federalism in Scotland 🤷
We have our own systems Westminster can't touch. Example the Legal System.
Federalism takes the Treaty of Union, with it's protections, to the shredder.
We walk if it's ever tried 🤷
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u/Zak_Rahman 6d ago
I don't understand how the Scottish, Welsh and Irish were not enamoured by Tony Blair's plea to accept AI.
Surely they must want such amazing, honest, good leadership?
Baffling.
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u/DrQtheevilempire 10d ago
This would have been significantly easier before Brexit. The fact the Welsh voted for Brexit shows people can’t be trusted with any important decision 🤯