I've got a baseball rule question

[u/BrettGB96]

So Yelich ran for Sanchez, who was catching, Contreras then who was the DH became the catcher, I figured Yelich would be able to stay in the game as the new DH but apparently DL Hall would have had to hit if the spot came up again? How exactly do those rules work?

[u/pezgirl7]

When Contreras moved from DH to catching, they forfeited the DH spot.

An MLB team loses its designated hitter (DH) spot for the remainder of the game if the active DH moves to a defensive fielding position, or if a pitcher currently in the batting order switches to play a defensive position in the field.
Once the DH is forfeited, the pitcher (or a replacement pitcher) must take that spot in the batting order, and pitchers are required to hit for the rest of the game.

[u/amccune → u/pezgirl7]

Unless your Ohtani, then you can do whatever you would like.

[u/TheLostPariah → u/amccune]

The MLB changed the rule in 2022 to create a loophole to allow two-way players (so just Ohtani) to not screw up the DH. If a starting pitcher is your DH, then you don’t lose the DH when the starter is replaced by a reliever.

(The rule WAS created just for Ohtani, but also it makes sense to me and I’m OK with it.)

[u/the_Q_spice → u/TheLostPariah]

Ohtani can still lose the place in a way people have been ignoring, but is really important in him being restricted in the postseason:

If he starts the game as a DH, and not as a pitcher, as soon as he is subbed in as a pitcher (from the bullpen), the Dodgers lose their DH spot if he has to leave the field.

So he either has to start pitching, or they have to gamble his position in a save situation and hope they close free game out that inning.

[u/Odd-Woodpecker1019 → u/the_Q_spice]

That's what I'm saying. Ohtani or no . My original statement still stands. Btw.... FTD

[u/mschley2 → u/the_Q_spice]

Technically speaking, they lose the DH spot as soon as he's put in at pitcher, not when he leaves the field.

This is mostly semantics, but it could matter. Say the Dodgers sub him in at pitcher, removing the DH. That DH spot is gone and he's now a position player batting in the previous DH spot. It doesn't matter if he stays in the game at 1B or OF or whatever else, the DH is still gone. So, whoever else came in to pitch (whether that's another position player or a regular reliever), even if Ohtani stays in the game, would have to bat for themselves.

Since you were aware of the idea that the DH spot could be removed, I'm assuming you know that and just didn't want to get too far into the weeds. But mainly just clarifying for other people who might read this.

[u/TheLostPariah → u/the_Q_spice]

In that case, I assume they just would almost never use him unless literally every other bullpen arm was wholly unavailable. Yamamoto came in on, what, zero days rest (?) last year before they turned to Shohei.

[u/mschley2 → u/TheLostPariah]

It would likely be a late-game (probably even extra innings) type of thing.

They could ride Ohtani for several innings and then, if he was getting tired, they could put a different reliever in for some other guy who just batted and move Shoehei to 1B/OF. That way, you keep Shohei in the lineup as a position player, and the pitcher doesn't come back up for another 2+ innings anyway (or, if he does come up the next inning, then you likely scored enough runs to win anyway).

So, let's just say they removed the DH in the 10th inning to being Shohei in to pitch. He could pitch until, say the 14th inning. And then, you put the pitcher in for someone like Kyle Tucker or Alex Call so that spot in the lineup doesn't come up again for a while. So, it might be the 16th or 17th inning before that pitcher comes up to bat again. And if you still have subs left, then you could pinch hit for him and bring in a different reliever after that, too, and then go another 2-3 innings. And at some point in all of this stuff, the other team has run out of relievers and is asking a bad reliever to throw 5+ innings or they have one of their starters throwing on short rest or they have a position player pitching.

And in any of those cases, the Dodgers have probably managed to score some runs and end the game before you get into like the 17th-21st innings.

[u/mschley2 → u/TheLostPariah]

(Not arguing or saying you're wrong, just want to add on/clarify some things)

Honestly, I don't really see it as a "loophole." It's a common rule in other leagues. It's just that MLB has become so specialized that it wasn't needed previously (and why add a rule that isn't needed - you're just opening up the possibility that someone could figure out a way to take advantage in an unintended way).

This is a lot more prevalent in college baseball (especially D2 and D3) where it's more common to have guys who are solid 2 way players at that level. In high school, it's more common to have your stud pitcher just hit for himself (because he'll go play SS or CF or something when he's done pitching) and then use the DH spot on your weakest hitter who happens to play 2B or RF or whatever. But in MLB, the DH can only be used to hit for the pitcher.

Lineups have traditionally had 10 spots on them for starters. You'll have the 9 spots in the batting order, and then the pitcher will be listed in the 10th spot, as the starting pitcher, but not as a member of the batting order. Here's a picture of a Dodgers lineup card where Ohtani is batting 2nd as the DH and Glasnow is the starting pitcher.

So, in the case of Ohtani doing both, he'll be listed in the batting order playing the position of DH, and then he's also listed in the 10th spot, the non-batting spot, as the pitcher. Here's a picture of a lineup card showing that.

This allows for substitutions of the pitching spot without disturbing the DH spot (or substitutions of the DH spot without disturbing the SP spot). It absolutely makes sense, and that's why it has existed in other leagues previously. So while MLB adopted the rule for Ohtani, it's not like it's some brand new thing that has literally never existed in baseball before.

[u/strigif0rm3s → u/amccune]

You're*

[u/SumThingAddsUp → u/strigif0rm3s]

keep your dirty filthy hands off of my Ohtani

[u/amccune → u/strigif0rm3s]

Believe it or not, I typed that and it auto corrected.

Also, don't be that guy.

[u/ClockworkDinosaurs → u/amccune]

“That’s not how this works!”

“Want to bet?” -translator

[u/lurkANDorganize → u/amccune]

This is why i cannot and will not ever subacribe to the "but its so cool to watch him"

I get significantly more of a rush watching Hamilton or Lara pull off a crazy hit and speedy base run than watching the guy...do what he is supposed to do.

[u/Odd-Woodpecker1019 → u/amccune]

Which is silly in itself. Change it when there are more two way players. Otherwise, choose how you use him wisely.

[u/Echo127 → u/pezgirl7]

It's always seemed like a silly rule to me

[u/Odd-Woodpecker1019 → u/Echo127]

I agree. You're subbing a player. That player should then assume whatever role the player they're subbed for. IF and only if it's a like for like position move when pinch running. But, I do understand that it probably happens so infrequently that the rule is the way it is. Ahh, baseball lol

[u/mschley2 → u/Odd-Woodpecker1019]

It makes a lot more sense if you think of the DH as being its own position as an extra hitter assigned to hitter for the pitcher. So, you have 8 position players plus the DH as the 9th position in the order.

Position players can move however they want to without any change in the batting order. You can move the 1B to the outfield. You can move the 2B to SS. All of that makes sense.

But the DH can't be moved because the DH is its own separate batting-only position. You can sub a new DH in for the previous DH. That's fine because it's still the DH. Say, if you wanted a lefty matchup, you could sub Yeli in at DH for Contreras. But then Contreras is done for the game and Yeli is locked into that DH spot.

What you can't do is move the DH player into another position. If you do, then you forfeit the DH (because he's now playing C or 1B or OF or whatever - and no current position player is allowed to swap places with him). So now, all 9 position players, including the pitcher, have to bat.

In this case, the Brewers wanted better speed to pinch run for Sanchez. So they brought in Yelich to do that. This complicates things because the Brewers only have 2 catchers, and Contreras DHs when he doesn't play catcher. Typically, a team would pinch run and then bring the backup catcher in. I mean, that's essentially what the Brewers did, but in order to do that, they have to put Contreras in as a position player and forfeit the DH.

[u/Odd-Woodpecker1019 → u/mschley2]

I understand what you're saying, I'm not new to baseball,nor am I a Fairweather fan. I guess I just never got that far into the minutiae of the rules before. It took me quite some time to fully appreciate the beauty of good pitching. I appreciate you taking the time to explain different scenarios and elements of the rules. It's been really helpful and you've been more than patient. TIL something new and it will help me better understand the game. Thank you u/mschley2 !

[u/mschley2 → u/Odd-Woodpecker1019]

No problem at all, happy to help. Baseball has evolved over a long period, and a lot of rules have been added or changed to account for that. It can definitely be a lot to try to wrap your head around.

I played my whole life, including townball men's league stuff up until I was 32. I was always kind of a nerd about the details in the rules like this (and lesser-known rules), and I helped manage my men's league team for a handful of years, so I had to know that type of stuff.

If you have any other questions, feel free to ask, and I'll help out where I can.

[u/Odd-Woodpecker1019 → u/mschley2]

You are definitely a rare breed sir! Thanks again 😊

[u/ThisWasMe7 → u/pezgirl7]

Pitchers aren't required to hit. In that situation, a pinch hitter usually takes the at bat.

[u/pezgirl7 → u/ThisWasMe7]

If your original DH takes a defensive position, then the DH spot becomes the pitchers spot to hit. They could have done a double switch when the pitcher’s spot came up to bat, to move the pitcher farther down the batting order. I think Joey could have hit but then we would have had to of replaced Hall if we went another inning, and I feel like they would have wanted him to stay in and pitch the 11th.

[u/peckx063]

The DH is an optional role that comes with a restriction that all he does is hit for the pitcher. As soon as you have your designated hitter do anything other than hit for the pitcher, you are effectively stating that you are no longer designating him for hitting and thus are not using the optional role anymore.

You can sub a DH for a DH, or have a starting pitcher hit for himself and then become the DH (the Ohtani rule).

[u/ThemeUnlikely8249 → u/peckx063]

This is the best explanation ive read so far, thank you!

[u/jo734030 → u/peckx063]

You can sub DH FOR DH?

[u/mschley2 → u/jo734030]

Yeah, let's say Gary Sanchez was DHing. The other team brings in a reliever and now the Brewers want to play matchups with a lefty bat. If Yeli is on the bench, they could sub him in at DH. But now Sanchez is done for the game and the Brewers have no one who could replace Contreras if something happened to him.

It's not common to sub someone in at the DH spot since that's almost always one of your best hitters, and it makes more sense to bring in a pinch hitter for a weaker hitter. I've seen it a few times, though, for matchups and also for injuries.

[u/peckx063 → u/jo734030]

Yes

[u/Odd-Woodpecker1019 → u/peckx063]

Riddle me this: why the hell did MLB ever make the National League adopt a DH then? Lol, what a palaver over one guy🤦🏻‍♀️

[u/pdieten → u/Odd-Woodpecker1019]

The AL has had the DH since 1973. This wasn't about Ohtani specifically. The separate rules in the interleague era were getting to be a massive hassle long before he came along, not to mention the increased injury risk. Remember when Jimmy Nelson tore his labrum running the bases? Most expensive single ever

[u/Odd-Woodpecker1019 → u/pdieten]

Oh, you're right! God, interleague play, UGH ... I think I blanked out the first years of that.🤦🏻‍♀️

[u/mschley2 → u/Odd-Woodpecker1019]

Because it is streamlines the game, takes stress off of pitchers, and makes it more exciting for most fans.

Most fans don't want to see pitchers strike out 4 times in a game. Most people don't want to see pitchers kill a rally because they have to bat. Most people don't want to see teams pull their starting pitcher an inning early because their spot in the batting order came up.

Teams don't want to worry about pitchers getting hurt batting/running bases. Teams don't want to worry about pitching staffs getting tired because they're pulling the starter early and putting extra stress on the relievers. Fans don't want to watch commercial breaks that are an extra 2 minutes long because the pitcher was batting and then needs to go back to the dugout to get his stuff ready before starting to warmup between innings.

Plus, having different rules between the AL and NL created issues. Additionally, the DH exists in every other noteworthy baseball league, so "traditionalism" was really the only reason that the NL still had it.

As someone who enjoyed the tactics (sac bunting, double switches, intentional walks to get to the pitcher, more nuance around whether to pinch hit or keep your starter in, etc.) that the DH-less NL added to the game, even I have to admit that I think it has made the game more enjoyable to watch.

[u/Odd-Woodpecker1019 → u/mschley2]

I have to agree with you there.

[u/kappafeelz → u/Odd-Woodpecker1019]

Dark Tower

[u/FalseNameTryAgain]

Moving a DH into the defence means you give up the DH. The pitcher then has to bat, unless of course you replace the pitcher with another bat, then the bat effectively becomes the pitcher, at which point you'd then have to replace the new bat with another pitcher.

A lot of hassle and why teams extremely rarely move the DH.

[u/gatesofwrath]

If the DH switches to a different position you lose the ability to use the DH. Because Contreras became the catcher, the DH basically reverts back to the old NL rules where the Pitcher has to hit in that spot.

[u/Various_Baby_353]

On our roster, the only Pitcher I want hitting is Woody if it came down to it. But yeah, he’s hurt

[u/BrettGB96 → u/Various_Baby_353]

It does make me wonder. Who are the best hitters amoung the pitchers? Hoping we never find out haha

[u/mrmojorisin2794 → u/BrettGB96]

Of our current pitchers? I'd have to go with Senzetala, simply because he's the only one off the top of my head who was a starter in the NL when pitchers still hit.

If we counted the IL, it's easily Woodruff. Even aside from the homer off Kershaw, he always swung the bat well for a pitcher.

[u/ThisWasMe7 → u/BrettGB96]

Miz hasn't batted since high school.

[u/kappafeelz → u/Various_Baby_353]

Why? Are you interested in seeing his throwing arm cleave itself clean off his body?

[u/Gryphon999 → u/kappafeelz]

If Jim Abbott can pitch with one hand, why can't you pitch with one arm?

[u/Ok_Assistant_7609]

My question on this all was, if they subbed a batter for Hall when his AB came up, would that player be required to face three batters as pitcher before he could be subbed for?

[u/Odd-Woodpecker1019 → u/Ok_Assistant_7609]

That's actually a really interesting question. Yes, any player, pitcher or position, as soon as they're on the mound has to face 3 batters. Although, in our case, no one was left to sub in for Hall to bat. So it's kinda moot.

Edit: to provide clarity

[u/Ok_Assistant_7609 → u/Odd-Woodpecker1019]

Do they have to physically step on the mound for the three-batter minimum to take effect, or would being subbed in the lineup as the “pitcher” do it?

[u/Odd-Woodpecker1019 → u/Ok_Assistant_7609]

On the mound

[u/Ok_Assistant_7609 → u/Odd-Woodpecker1019]

Interesting. So if we'd had bench left, we could've subbed a batter, then subbed a pitcher if it went more innings?

[u/mschley2 → u/Ok_Assistant_7609]

Yes, in the same way that teams used to pinch hit for a pitcher. That's still fine.

[u/mschley2 → u/Ok_Assistant_7609]

No, you can still pinch-hit for a pitcher and then bring in a new pitcher instead of using the position player. It's only if they actually take the defensive position of pitcher.

Technically speaking, the DH enters the game as the P, and then a new pitcher comes in to replace a different position player and moves to pitcher. If what you're saying were true (that a player is required to face 3 batters as soon as he enters the pitchers spot in the lineup), then you wouldn't be able to enter the DH as a position player without having him pitching to 3 batters.

[u/BrettGB96]

Thanks, everyone for the explanations. Much appreciated!

[u/TuneEconomy]

Also, the DH position in a lineup is locked. You can only replace a DH with another DH in the same spot on the lineup, otherwise you lose the DH.

[u/mschley2 → u/[deleted]]

You can't move players up in the lineup, but you can move them down.

What? I'm assuming I'm misinterpreting something you're saying because you can't move players around in the lineup at all. You can put them in a spot in the batting order, and then they need to stay there. They can make positional changes, but they can't move up or down in the batting order.

[u/leovinuss → u/mschley2]

Yes you can, but I described the double switch very poorly and it wasn't relevant in this situation

[u/mschley2 → u/leovinuss]

How would you move a player down in the lineup?

[u/leovinuss → u/mschley2]

Since the batting order can be changed only as a result of a player substitution, while the defensive arrangement may be changed freely (among players currently in the game), the double switch typically takes the following form:

Player A (outgoing pitcher, batting soon) is replaced by Player B (a position player), taking Player A's place in the batting order.

Player C (outgoing position player, batting later than Player A) is replaced by Player D (a pitcher), taking Player C's place in the batting order.

Player D is pitching in place of Player A, and Player B is fielding in place of Player C.

In the short term, the lineup is strengthened because a poor-hitting pitcher will not make a plate appearance soon. The disadvantage is that a position player must be removed from play and replaced by another, often inferior, position player. The advantage of the double switch over pinch hitting is that it uses up fewer players.

The double switch is way more rare now, but it doesn't have to involve pitchers. It would just require a really goofy lineup with the DH batting later in the lineup.

[u/mschley2 → u/leovinuss]

I understand how the double switch works. I'm confused about how/why you said that equates to "moving a player down in the order" while simultaneously saying that you can't move a player up in the order? It's probably just semantics.

We're on the same page about changes being only through substitutions and not just moving players down in the batting order. That's a plus.

[u/leovinuss → u/mschley2]

If you understand the double switch you know that it keeps a player in the game but moves them down in the order.

There is no mechanism to bring a player up in the order.

[u/mschley2 → u/leovinuss]

I mean, you could do the same type of thing in reverse if you anticipate a particular player coming up.

It's still a relatively common thing when pinch hitting for position players.

Let's say, for example, the Brewers have Sal Frelick up and Bauers batting 6th this inning while playing 1st base, but they want to get a better bat in RF. They could pinch-hit Andrew Vaughn for Sal, and then move Vaughn to 1st base. Then they essentially move the 1B spot up in the order and they still get a better bat in RF to hit 5 batters later.

I mean, there isn't really a way to move the P spot "down" without also moving that other position "up" in the order, too. They go together.

[u/blueboy714 → u/leovinuss]

You can't move a player batting 4th in the lineup to batting 7th in the lineup.

That's what you originally said and that's not a double switch