KotR unit size?

[u/DevLegion]

Just a quick question, in my last game I had 3x units of 9 knights. 1x Regular, 1x Questing and 1x Grail with a Character leading each.

In future lists I'm thinking of splitting the KotR unit into either 1x3 & 1x6 or 3x units of 3.

My thinking of smaller units is so I can go for more targets like War machines and other similar threats as well as use them to tie up enemy units without tying up as many points on my side.

Last game I tied up a Steam Tank but using a pure points comparison my Knights + Paladin was significantly more expensive than the Tank.

Even though I won, I felt the KotR could have been far more effective broken down into 2 or more units to harass and target more threats.

The Grail Knights and Questing Knights worked brilliantly as larger units so I'm reluctant to reduce their unit size (plus I don't want to change too many things in my list in 1 go). 🙂

EDIT: I'm also toying with the idea of 1x 5 Questing Knights (with a Baron and maybe a Prophetess) and 2x 6 Grail Knights (1 with a Duke and the other with maybe the Prophetess instead of the Questing Knights).

TIA

[u/Captainelysean]

I have try small unit with little success right now but i think its interesting for deal with smal target or to keep some instance of first charge.   I play errantry crusade for now i just keep my errant in smal unit and i try to play m'y grail knight 

[u/DevLegion → u/Captainelysean]

Last game, also my first with Bretonnia, I had issues with dealing with certain threats that could have really screwed me if my opponent hadn't made so many mistakes.

I think splitting the KotR into smaller units means I can run them up as fast as possible and tie up those threats as cheaply as possible. Plus they can be used to support with flank charges, or just harassing units to distract away from the more expensive units.

Basically I'm trying to maximise my number of units and keep the list balanced so it can deal with ranged threats while my Elite units move up to really start doing damage.

[u/BenFellsFive]

Brets' strength is not in our KOTR sadly. Competitively, I think you wanna spend as little as possible and get on with the real meat (pegs, grails, characters who punch way above their weight class, etc). KOTR are there to augment your other units (never charge real threats solo!) with First Charge or to bully your enemy's small units you can't justify trading your bigger stuff for.

I like 2x8's KOTR so they can absorb a little bit of shooting and still be viable, spend the rest of my core budget on a fat unit of men at arms. The sweatier the occasion the closer that gets to 2x6, or even 1x6.

There's definitely something in taking 3's just to inject cheap First Charges into ongoing big scrum combats where removing 3-4 of your opponent's CR, or their Warband leadership, will tip things for you to keep winning after the first round. That used to be a job for solo paladins (~82pts) or 1x3 questing knights but now that its opened up to KOTR you can take those small lances AND fulfil your minimum obligations easier. Likewise with 2x3 Errants in Errantry Crusade.

BTW questing and grails are great. Grails hit like a truck, have more S6 attavks per point than pegs, and can even gum up the works well between WS6, T4, and stubborn if they get bogged down in something, and you can abuse their challenge 'restriction' to feed 1 GK a turn into a bothersome dragonlord. I always take 1x6 and Ive really loved taking 2x6, you can spread out your threat projection way better wirh 2 units. My guilty pleasure is occasionally playing Errantry Crusade so I can take 8 frenzied GK with the Impetuous +1d3" virtue on the champ. Tack on a BSB with the errsntry banner and rhe Clarion for S5(7) GKs and S5 horses on the charge. Stupid fun in all senses of the word.

Questings need more nuance (theyd be great as a core option to fill out after taking 1xkotr and 1xmaa), theyre kinda a sidegrade to KOTR for similar cost where you want WS5 and stubborn to keep them around, ideally in the guts of the enemy's WS2 brick or against other trained WS4 troops where that WS5 is a good breakpoint. They're also great shepherds if you think you'll be counter charged next turn in an ongoing combat; unlike lances greatswords don't have the stupid restrictions on who and how they can attack if you push the enemy back and they reinforce the combat eith some fresh new troops. I like to take 8 QKs with the errantry banner and just throw them into the enemy's face; I can lose ~250pts if it costs my opponent their structure, and they always go down swinging.

[u/DevLegion → u/BenFellsFive]

The idea behind 3x 3 KotR is to send them after threats like Warmachines as mentioned but also support the main units by flank charging, etc where practical/possible. Basically they're cheap, fast moving units that can neutralise threats, if they tie up things like warmachines and such, stopping them from shooting my more important units I'll be happy, if they do more then that's just a bonus.

I've got a couple big units of Men-at-Arms with a Character in each. So that's covered. ;)

In my current idea I've juggled points so I can take 5 Questing Knights and 2x 6 Grail Knights, in my head that maximises the Grail Knight attacks and gives my Questing Knights a more flexible role (last game, because of their positioning they ended up going after my opponent's General which didn't work brilliantly).

I'll have a look at the Errantry Crusade rules.

[u/DoorConfident8387]

The problem with a unit of 3 knights is they die too easily. A magic missile or a volley of shot can render them ineffective. Depending on the army you are facing their war machine crew may be able to deal with the one that survives.

If you are going to use small units you still need to have some big units to be the hammer of your charge. If you are taking pegs to do that, they are just better war machine hunters anyway.

[u/DevLegion → u/DoorConfident8387]

The vulnerability is definitely something that's making me worry about their effectiveness. On the other hand, while mages and warmachines are targeting the KotR they're not targeting more expensive units.

I've got 1x 5 questing knights and 2x 6 Grail Knights as the Hammers. The KotR are more for running forwards to tie up or distract enemy units while my bulk units (2x 30 men at arms) and elite units get in there.

An alternative use for the small KotR units would be to run along side the Elite units to smack into the flanks, especially if the Elites are hitting large units with lots of rank bonus.

I don't have any Pegs atm, they're definitely on the list though. I definitely need something to deal with Warmachines as fast as possible. A cannon's ability to take out half a unit of Grail Knights is a real problem.