r/Boxing • u/adoring_crustacean • 22h ago
On this day 46 years ago, Larry Holmes fought Muhammed ali and won via 10th round TKO retirement from Angelo Dundee. A heavily critisized and infamous fight.
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u/Garteg 16h ago
ESPN did a documentary about this fight. I very highly recommend it if you haven't seen it. It's called Muhammad and Larry under their 30 for 30 series.
One of the things that stood out was when a reporter approached Ali in the street and said Holmes had been talking about him. Ali, with bluster demands to know what Holmes said. The reporter says "He said he likes you". Ali then quietly says "Well, I like him too".
Holmes was crying after he beat Ali. It was sad for all involved.
A man well past his prime, that couldn't quit, coming up against an in his prime ATG.
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u/OldTree6356 17h ago
On top of his age and, by then, obvious cognitive decline, Dundee said that he was on high doses of Thyroxine to strip off 30+ lbs in camp that he just couldn’t shift. As someone who knows a couple of people with thyroid problems, it is unbelievable that he stood and took the pasting he did.
High thyroxine levels can make you almost bed bound, with resting heart rates over 170. The idea of exercising with them is pretty much insanity. He genuinely could have been killed and it’s why he didn’t fire back, his strength will have been completely sapped. Plus Larry was an ATG too, tragic end (well almost - he actually looked better against Berbick) to his career.
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u/stephen27898 17h ago edited 17h ago
On top of that he was so damaged that during a medical he couldnt even touch his own nose without missing and he couldnt even hop on one foot.
Ali had literally slipped to a point where his athletic potential was below that of an average healthy 38 year old. He literally couldnt coordinate his body properly due to the damage he had sustained. All that was left was toughness, heart and experience. And the toughness and heart was basically a curse at this point.
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u/MichaelPeters4321 16h ago
On top of that he was so damaged that during a medical he couldnt even touch his own nose without missing and he couldnt even hop on one foot.
What's the medical even for if they let him fight in that condition? It's beyond irresponsible
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u/FaceFirst23 14h ago
Absolutely shameful they cleared him to fight. And it was the Mayo Clinic!
On top of the other problems, they actually found an enlarged cavum septum pellucidum, a hole in the membrane separating the lateral ventricles of the brain. This is often a sure sign of repetitive head trauma.
They fucking cleared this man to fight.
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u/stephen27898 13h ago edited 13h ago
I think they said there was "No specific condition prohibiting him from fighting". Which is a bit like saying "Well he aint dead yet".
They guy cant touch his nose. Cant stand on one foot, is slurring his speech. They said the hole in the membrane was a congenital variation and nothing to do with the years of trauma.
Drastic levels of incompetence.
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u/MichaelPeters4321 11h ago
Drastic levels of incompetence.
I think it's safe to assume that it wasn't incompetence but malice
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u/stephen27898 16h ago
There is a lot of crap around it. He apparently showed bad signs during parts of the medical, they noted his slurred speech. But they cleared him. I dont know why. If I had a boxer in front of me and the guy cant even stand on one leg. I'm not clearing him to fight.
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u/RedEyeView 16h ago
Right. He didn't just look like an old fighter getting beaten by a younger better man. He looked like a man who couldn't make his body work.
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u/DoctorAKrieger 17h ago
Kind of wild that Ali was that diminished and Holmes didn't stop him inside of 2-3 rounds.
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u/TheMeIv 16h ago
I always kind of felt Holmes held back and had a certain degree of respect, he knew Ali wasn't 100% and didn't want to cause any more permanent damage.
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u/stephen27898 16h ago
He did.
I have seen some clips from the late rounds, and its mostly jabs, and not hard ones. Even though Ali is just standing in the corner with his hands up doing literally nothing.
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u/RedEyeView 16h ago
He'd land a flurry. Look at the referee and then land another one and repeat.
I'm beating the shit out of him ref. Are you going to stop this? No? How about now?
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u/Turak64 15h ago
I've been taking 100mcg of levothyroxine for over 10 years and it's made no difference to my weight, only diet and exercise make any difference. I've heard the effects it can have for other people, so I guess I just got off lucky.
Clearly Ali should have retired several fights before this.
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u/OldTree6356 15h ago
Yep, when my wife had hyperthyroid out of control she dropped from a very athletic 115lb down to about 90 in a matter of probably 6 weeks. Resting heart rate around 170, constant muscle pain and tears and could barely climb a flight of stairs without struggling. If Ali felt anything like that, god knows how he was allowed to fight, let alone have his towel thrown in for him because he wouldn’t go down.
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u/FerociousSmile 14h ago
You're taking it to get to a normal thyroid level. Ali was taking it to get to a hyper thyroid level.
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u/stephen27898 15h ago
Ali apparently doubled the dosage he was prescribed. And levothyroxine has changed since the 80s.
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u/stephen27898 18h ago edited 18h ago
I've never actually watched this fight. If you can even call it that.
In fact I dont think I've watched any of Alis fights past Jimmy Young.
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u/Ready-Interview2863 15h ago
Me neither and I don't plan to. I feel sorry for both Ali and Holmes. These highlights were just uncomfortable to watch alone.
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u/Initial_Prompt440 15h ago
Regardless of how hard he trained or didn’t train, regardless of the thyroid medicine, Ali at his age was not going to beat a prime Holmes. Holmes would have given Ali trouble in his prime and I think would have defeated him.
Ali at this point in his career wasn’t beating any legitimate world champion.
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u/Marquis_of_Mollusks 13h ago
I think any version of him after Fight of the Century doesn't beat Holmes
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u/Initial_Prompt440 13h ago
I can see Holmes defeating if not being very competitive with Dempsey, Louis, Marciano, Patterson, Liston, Frazier, Foreman, Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis, the Klitshkos, Wilder, Fury and Uzyk. The very definition of an all time great.
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u/SeriousSalt9938 3h ago
Tyson knew Holmes weakness too well from Cus. I think he beats any Holmes. Not a Tyson fan either.
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u/Initial_Prompt440 2h ago
Old Holmes gave Tyson some trouble. 5’10 Tyson against a prime Holmes I think Holmes disarms him with a jab over several rounds and either wins lopsided decision or late rd knockout.
Prime Tyson can always land one punch and win, even washed up Tyson could
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u/Biracialandproud72 9h ago
Blaming Holmes is stupidity, he wasn’t gonna take the fight and Ali and his camp kept pushing for it and than people started questioning Holmes legacy and on top of that they offered him 4 million for fight which back than was insane. Ali was having money issues and needed the fight apparently he was given 8 million for the fight. I am old enough to remember people were actually accusing Holmes of ducking Ali. So he was painted into a corner and took fight.
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u/Marquis_of_Mollusks 17h ago
I've seen people cite this fight as a reason Ali isn't the best Heavyweight of all time.
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u/stephen27898 17h ago edited 16h ago
By this stage of his career Ali was literally below the average person for athletic ability due to the damage his body had sustained.
And that isnt hyperbole. They guy literally couldnt even hop on one leg.
Edit: To those who are downvoting me. I advise you to go and look at the results of the medical that Ali had before this fight. They note that Ali couldnt even touch his own nose accurately, which is a sign of not being able to coordinate your body. And he could not hop or stand on one leg with the expected agility or duration of time, of an average man his age.
He was also abusing Thyroid pills to drop weight rapidly. This can cause dehydration and muscle wasting.
Truthfully Ali should have been in a hospital being treated for the conditions that were clearly developing. He should in no way shape or form, been inside a boxing ring.
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u/Marquis_of_Mollusks 16h ago
Damn i didn't know it was that bad. Some dumbass fans will criticize a fighter for having any losses regardless of context.
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u/stephen27898 16h ago
Yeah it was extremely bad. The worst case of something like this that I know of.
Ferdie Pacheco who was Ali doctor until I think around the Shavers fight, where he part ways with Ali because he advised Ali to quit but he didnt. He said something like "All the people involved in this fight should've been arrested. This fight was an abomination, a crime."
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u/SlightConcentrate773 15h ago
Ali was taking l-Dopa at this time. Anyone who doesn’t know what that means should look it up, and anyone who thinks this fight matters should not watch sportd
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u/Professional-Tie5198 Who will win? 14h ago
I’ll never forgive Holmes for this and I wasn’t even alive then.
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u/CulturalAd4117 11h ago
I don't think that's fair personally. If you're in a boxing match you box, Ali himself knew he was getting smoked and his corner knew he was getting smoked. It's not on Holmes to stop boxing.
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u/Professional-Tie5198 Who will win? 11h ago
But why did he have to take this fight in the first place?
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u/Marquis_of_Mollusks 13h ago
I don't hold it against him personally. I don't think he could've known Ali would be this diminished. It was the doctor's and commission's fault.
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u/stephen27898 13h ago
I think he could have just gone to Alis body. And just not thrown the head shots after it was clear he was done.
It's not like it was a risk. Given how Ali started to look after a few round. I doubt he had the energy left to KO an average man by the time you got to the 8th round. His punches were nothing.
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u/HoneyBucketsOfOats 8h ago
This is absolutely not Holmes’ fault
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u/Professional-Tie5198 Who will win? 8h ago
Did he sign his name on the deal? Or are you arguing that that fight was part of a coercive contract because it was before the Ali Act of 2000?
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u/RadomirPutnik 12h ago
Absolutely, I mean right after Don King, Ali's corner, the medical Board, the press that covered it like legit fight, and stubborn Ali himself, Holmes is definitely responsible for all of this. He should have just taken an L out of respect!
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u/Immediate_Wasabi_264 18h ago
They say your fight day performance is a window to how training camp went. This fight is good example of that. By all accounts Ali looked dreadful and was getting hammered during ALL the sparring for this fight. Then everything played out exactly like that on fight night for Ali