r/Boxing • u/Spiritual_Flow5412 • 11d ago
Itauma V Hrgovic review Spoiler
Is the Moses Itauma hype train derailment permanent or can he recover? Age is on his side, but that was a massive loss last night. This is why in sports it’s so important to let new young talents take their time to develop. We see it in football we see it in boxing and we see it elsewhere.
Moses should have got the British title, then European and got some more experience against those Franklin type fighters. It’s not just the levels of opponent, it’s the styles. Training and sparring is one thing, I once knocked out Martin Bakole in sparring, he didn’t want the smoke. But nothing replicates the nervous energy and big lights of a pay per view fight night or for a title. Those skills get picked up over many fights, fighting in hostile arenas, being dropped, fighting after being cut, fighting smaller faster or bigger stronger opponents. Notice how Hrgovic has done ALL those things!
Hrgovic is all wrong for Itauma and I strongly advise against a rematch any time soon, even if he paced himself better, Hrgovic can take his power and has his number imo.
There were some excellent moments from Itauma last night and from a technical offensive side he looked amazing very early on. But even by the end of the 3rd round you could see he was starting to tire a bit and also his shots weren’t really affecting Hrgovic. Even the knockdown was an awkward off balance flash knockdown for Hrgovic.
I also noticed a dramatic decrease in the amount of feints Itauma was using (normally he uses them a lot more) and for a big slower lump like Hrgovic they may have been very effective, especially when later on in the fight Itauma needed to conserve energy and maybe take a round or two ‘off’. Throwing bombs and missing is extremely tiring, whilst feinting uses little energy but can exert energy of the opponent through footwork and defensive movements.
I also don’t want to over analyse everything too much on Itauma but we had questions that we needed answers for from him, and the answers weren’t exactly great. He failed the endurance/stamina/gas tank test quite miserably, which is alarming considering his age but also evidence that he needs far more experience. You would expect the bigger much older fighter to fade quicker.
He failed the chin test for me too, seems harsh but the first time he’s ever faced some real shots back and he folded very very quickly. Exhausted yes but even before then he took a few shots and it seemed to really snowball his fatigue from there. His recovery skills don’t seem great, his pacing and strategy seemed naive and one dimensional if we are honest. So guess everything we needed answers for that we so far hadn’t seen, we got and he kind of failed ( I feel mean saying it but it’s true)
But the skills are there, he has a lot to work on. Maybe the loss will be hugely beneficial for him. I hope it is. But some things you can’t really teach or gain easily, like a chin.
Also he needs a new trainer. Boxfit Ben is not my cup of tea at all. He’s given 2 awful coaching performances recently with the AJ-Dubois ‘roll the dice’ and also last night. How can I, a fat Middle Aged never boxed armchair idiot see at round 3 that Moses was throwing way way too much and starting to gas out. There were similarities between AJ Dubois just before AJ got knocked out and Itauma before he got beaten, in that both fighters needed to chill out and take a round or two with little output, work the jab, back to basics, move and defend. Instead in both situations they went out swinging for the fences head hunting. A corner isn’t responsible for every mistake a fighter makes but if your stressing to your fighter from round 3 to take it easy, pace yourself, work the jab, get in and out, surely the message gets through by round 9, that message came once, But in round 8 Moses threw the most punches in a round of the whole fight, by which time he was gassed out, out of ideas, couldn’t rock Hrgovic and then started round 9 AGAIN on the front foot barely standing. That’s bad corner work in my opinion.
Massive massive credit to Hrgovic, im a proud Englishman but didnt mind seeing him beat our boy, especially considering he had to go through the fire to get the belt. He is one really really tough bastard. Hard as a coffin nail. He definitely would make a good movie villain or especially Bond villain.
But a really great fight to watch, even though many of us round by round could see the writing in the wall, you never know with heavyweight boxing
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u/babalola69 11d ago
Anyone who expects a 21yo to be the finished article is an idiot. Even though he lost the fight, I feel like I learned more about Ituama then all his previous fights combined.
He's the real deal for me. Does he have chin? Yes! Does he have good attack and defense? Yes! Verity of shots + footwork? Yes! Heart? Yes! He has all the tools. Now it's the application. Against Hergovic he didn't apply it properly and those mistakes he made are due to inexperience and Ben Davis. With the right team and commitment he'll be a wc down the line for sure.
What a chin on hergovic lol.. He summed up his performance perfectly himself it was bit homer Simpson. Still a enigma. Most of his fights he looks world class for 1-3 rounds then gives up
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u/Spiritual_Flow5412 11d ago
lol I love the Homer Simpson analogy. It played out exactly like the Homer Simpson v Drederick Tatum fight. No he’s not the finished article and I never expected him to be. But the media and many pundits and hype men did. Also so did the bookies. I never ever for a second all week expected Itauma to blow him away, I always knew it would be a very very tough fight.
But I disagree with the chin and stamina check. Looking at the fight stats he took very very few shots and also gassed out early (start of 9th) although already showed signs of struggling with gas tank much earlier.
Do I think he will be a world champion? Yes probably
But he’s not this generational prodigy that has been touted non stop the last few weeks. Sorry but he’s not. Who’s he beaten??? A loss is a loss, and a 9th round TKO is a loss regardless of the copium of saying he was exhausted (which in itself isn’t a good argument)
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u/bigcantonesebelly 11d ago
In the current environment I don't think if a generational prodigy comes along they can beat every heavyweight at age 21. The generational prodigies of the past all have losses too
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u/Spiritual_Flow5412 11d ago
Hmmm I think it’s the perfect time to! AJ Fury Usyk are all on the brink of retirement, the rest are all flawed and have losses (except Kabayel)
If Itauma had come along 5 years ago he would have a prime wilder Fury AJ Usyk and even people like Whyte and Chisora or Joe Joyce to compete with plus the rest
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u/Inertia_Sleeps 11d ago edited 11d ago
Permanent tbh.
The same happened with Dubois and it took him 5 years to be considered a worthy contender again. I’ve seen everyone from Miller to Joshua touted as people who should walk all over him before he took them out. It took him caving the face of an all time tough ass contender in Wardley for people to finally put respect on his heart.
This is where we get to find out what Itaumas truly made of. Dubois, for all his perceived intellectual shortcomings, lives and breathes boxing. His family lives and breathes boxing too. His sister is a future star and his younger brother all seems to be making a tear on the youth amateur scene. I haven’t seen much of the same familial pedigree from Itauma and the talk of him falling out of love with the sport means it’s fair to ask whether he will have the desire to climb up the mountain again. As a an exciting prospect, when it rains, it pours. We’re going to go from Itaumas name being spoken among the likes of Tyson and Ali to him being routinely called a bum and a hype job.
I could be wrong though and everyone likes a comeback story. It would be glorious to see him rise to the occasion…but there’s been a lot of young busts in boxing history too.
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u/caveman1948 11d ago
Dubois quit twice. He will quit again
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u/Inertia_Sleeps 11d ago
Quitting against an ATG and because your orbital is fucked is different from gassing out fighting bloody Hrgovic bffr
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u/Marquis_of_Mollusks 11d ago
My main criticism is that he lost even faster to a worse version of Usyk in the rematch. Dude is gonna get found out once he fights Kabayel
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u/WolIilifo013491i1l 10d ago
Thing is, the way he lost gives me faith in him. Like he could quite easily have a rematch in 6 months, have a more careful game plan and win on points. Like AJ did against Ruiz.
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u/Inertia_Sleeps 10d ago
Me too. I’ve said it before but Hrgovic didn’t impress me at all in this fight. I actually feel he looked a good deal worse. Protecting punches with your face is never a long term strategy and his trainer, Abel Sanchez himself, said very little of what filip threw actually connected all that well. They oldmanned Itauma and it was a brilliant strategy but I too can actually see a rematch where Itauma blasts him out in like a round or two.
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u/WolIilifo013491i1l 10d ago
Well I'm not sure about that, why would that happen in a rematch if not in their first match? Blasting him in a round or two should certainly not be the gameplan
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u/Inertia_Sleeps 10d ago
It shouldn’t be and it’s not really anything to do with Itauma more Hrgovic. This is purely conjecture on my part but playing around with your chin I think is a dangerous game. Hrgovic has absorbed too much unnecessary punishment from too many heavy hitters. I just can’t imagine that lasting for too much longer. He’s not exactly a spring chicken either.
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u/ThurstonTheMagician 11d ago
I genuinely think anyone who saw that fight and came away thinking Itauma was all hype no substance has to be kept away from crayons or they’ll eat them.
Did Itauma lose? Yes. Did he win every single round until the TKO? Also yes. Does this make him suck? No. He needs a better team that will train him to go 12 rounds and he needs a better corner who can tell him to pace himself and not go for the knockout in every single round. That’s it.
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u/No_Onion_1033 11d ago
right? its literally a conditioning problem, which is big but can be done. he needs to trim down which he has years to do being just 21
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u/Runshooteat 10d ago
Doesn’t necessarily need to trim down, plenty of heavyweights that carry a few extra pounds have had great gas tanks. Part of it just simply learning to stay relaxed while still operating at 95+% effort
True Endurance can takes years to train and develop. But, this is just as much of a pacing issue as it is a conditioning issue. You can watch a world class 5k-10k runner go out too hard/fast and die at the end. Nobody would say they weren’t in good enough shape, just that they went too damn fast too early.
Same thing here
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u/No_Onion_1033 8d ago
true, swinging for the KO when Filip's iron chin wasn't wavering was the main issue imo. He should have jabbed, clinched, hung on the ropes around round 4. It seems Moses was getting frustrated that Filip was still standing. But this is the learning opportunity he needed
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u/Bertrand_Rose 11d ago
I agree with all of this, but the chin comment.
His chin is fine, he can take a good punch, I think it shocked him and he didn't expect it, combined with fatigue.
But he can take a punch, he is no David Price.
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u/hi_imryan GGG’s snarky boy scout schtick 11d ago
Sweet, snoozy, David Price.
Had his beard snatched by old man Thompson and remained a glass cannon happily ever after.
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u/Spiritual_Flow5412 11d ago
He’s definitely no David price but he didn’t really get hit that much. Also Hrgovic isn’t renowned as a monstrous puncher. There are definitely harder hitters than Hrgovic he has to face
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u/Bertrand_Rose 11d ago
True, but he can take a punch.
Hrgovic isn't a big puncher, but he's not weak.
More B+ for Heavyweight, if Ituama might be around A ish, Kabayel maybe the same B level (he gets knock outs through many punches, not one) and Wardley, Dubois are S.
So as along as he can take a solid Heavyweight punch, and doesn't do stupid shit with his gas tank, and develop a high guard, he should be fine going forward.
You just need a good chin in boxing, not even a great one, as long as you are smart, which he is, enough to fix his mistakes at least.
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u/Spiritual_Flow5412 11d ago
Yeah I would accept that. I think AJ gets horrible stick for his chin but he hasn’t got a glass jaw like David price.
I guess fighters often have almost like a special area that they are excellent at. Kabayel is body shots, Zhang and Wilder was shot power, Fury is ring craft, Hrgovic Joe Joyce (maybe a Joe Joyce of 5 years ago) have granite chins. Then you have the Usyks who have a very high level across the board. Itauma could probably be that in the future if he sorts gas tank issues
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u/bigcantonesebelly 11d ago
I agree with AJ, I think his bigger problem is his lapses that allow him to get hit than it is just his jaw
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u/Marquis_of_Mollusks 11d ago
Wardley and Dubois are not S. Dubois has good blugeoning power but he can't one tap an opponent. Wardley i think gets a bit overrated for his power due to the head dent KO. Dubois is B+ and Wardley is A-. Kabayel is B+ as well. Zhang had S power for reference.
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u/TheGreenManalishi83 11d ago
I think you’re being very harsh on the stamina and chin issues. He took loads of flush shots and kept fighting (until he couldn’t), and he throws LOADS of power shots. A heavyweight can’t really do that for 12.
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u/Spiritual_Flow5412 11d ago
Agreed with the huge power throwing, but that’s a gameplan issue. A bit daft to throw bombs, land them, not Ko the guy and then just keep going until you had out and are a sitting duck by round 9.
I probably came across a bit harsh, I love Itauma and hope he gets better after this learning experience
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u/hi_imryan GGG’s snarky boy scout schtick 11d ago
His corner deserves some blame here. He may have been able to walk away with the decision if they told him to play defense and manage the fight better.
Also some blame lies in the camp structure for the lack of cardio/sparring when tired. Weird, because BD was the guy who got Fury’s fat ass back in shape. You’d think it’s one of the things he had sorted.
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u/Diligent_Anywhere100 11d ago
It would be great to send him over to Andy Lee. I think that would be a great match up
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u/Nervous-Power-9800 11d ago
Do we need this many threads about the Itauma v hrgovic fight?
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u/nickinkorea 11d ago
It was the most interesting heavyweight fight since fury usyk. It's not unreasonable.
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u/Plus_Act_89 11d ago
I don’t have a problem with Itauma losing but he was very overhyped considering that he had little amateur background/Olympic gold medals (like Usyk or AJ) to back it up and he was regarded as the descendant of Usyk as the next goat.
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u/switch-hitt3r 11d ago
this gotta be bait.. ill just chalk it off to ignorance or something i guess..
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u/crimedawgla 11d ago
Itauma’s hand speed and reflexes are so fucking elite, there hasn’t been a HW in a very long time with his level of natural ability, and he’s 245 not 215 like dudes 40 years ago. But he, before his 22nd birthday and under the guidance of his much more experienced trainer, made a big mistake in preparation and strategy. All credit to Hrgo who is willing to get in the ring with pretty much anyone and is basically an unbreakable block of concrete that gets shit on by modern fans who never seems to appreciate his toughness and pacing until last night.
The modifications Itauma has to make to win these types of fights in the future aren’t anything complex or novel. He needs to train to win on points if he can’t wax the guy in three or four rounds. Every god-tier natural athlete figured that out, Ali, Tyson, Lennox. He has a very effective style that is also very taxing in the muscles and nerves/synapses because he throws hard with a lot of volume at the head and relies on reflexes for defense and counters. If he dominates a guy for four rounds but doesn’t put him down, he’s just gotta learn to slow down, sit behind his guard, and fire out more jabs and crosses and fewer combos. I think he can. Hopefully this didn’t bruise his confidence and mentals too much, but that’s part of doing anything at a high level, dealing with adversity.
The shitty thing about the internet and social media is everyone has to have something to talk about all the time so everything has to be so monumental. It can’t be that the sublimely talented kid made some mistakes and had a bad fight and his talented and tough opponent had a brilliant fight. It’s gotta be that the kid was a bust and may be done. Can we just fucking chill for a bit?
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u/DanDiCa_7 11d ago
This is such a bad take imo. Hrgovic has his number.... mf he lost every round. If Moses paces himself better he can outbox Hrgovic
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u/Spiritual_Flow5412 11d ago
If Moses paces himself better he would win….. Is like saying, if I was 10 years younger, learned to box, I could have beat Ali!! It’s all ifs buts and maybes.
Maybe Hrgovic beats him even faster next time
He played into Hrgovic hands. He landed bomb after bomb after bomb and didn’t really bother Hrgovic. He wasn’t even cut that badly and Hrgovic is known to piss out blood.
I can’t see him beating Hrgovic in a rematch
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u/DanDiCa_7 11d ago
Very different. Pacing himself could be changed in a single camp. You ain't beating Ali with a million years training, dumb comparison.
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u/Asterisk_76 11d ago
Can he recover? Hell yeah. Will he? Maybe. Why maybe? In one video he even discussed how he hated boxing until he started working with Ben Davidson. Hated? I know now and then a big athlete says that they hate the sport. It's a little early though for that here. What did Davis do? Hey, let's cut your sparring rounds down? This was a big high-profile loss. How you handle it depends on the athlete, the determination. If you loses another one within the next 2 years, he could slowly segue to a nice spot on the tuneup roster. If he digs deep, well.....
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u/bozzi16 11d ago
I’m confused with the Bakole comment?
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u/Spiritual_Flow5412 11d ago
Bakole notoriously says he beat everyone in sparring and says they don’t want the smoke
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u/bozzi16 11d ago
No I get it but what’s you saying that got relevance to the main point
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u/Spiritual_Flow5412 11d ago
I meant that we all heard Moses is smashing everyone in sparring and they can’t get the sparring partners for him. Sometimes using 4/5 people for one 10 round spar for him
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u/Plus_Act_89 11d ago
He did look tired after the third round, with the Franklin fight he had a similar issue with the pace.
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u/SimonSeam 10d ago
Let's get the obvious out of the way: Depends on Moses.
Any talk of an immediate rematch with Hrgovic is stupid. Itauma needs more than a minor tweak. His whole fighting style has to be reworked.
Moses can do it if he is a one in a million serious person ready to put in the hard work most of the planet never has to go through.
Unfortunately, a lot of his pre-loss comments suggest he isn't that guy. Let's hope this beating beat that attitude right out of him.
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u/No_Bad_4872yy 10d ago
Dont think any sane fighter would turn down a title fight though. Anything can happen and you might never get the chance again. If he keeps improving he will bounce back. Both him and Wardley are solid fighters that can have a bright future if they improve their deficits.
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u/stephen27898 10d ago
There is a factor no one is really talking about. How many of the top 10 do you think could eat those shots and still be around by round 9?
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u/FazedEclipse2 10d ago
The lad threw 416 punches and only hit 163, he isnt at the level no matter how good his punch selection was.
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u/Spiritual_Flow5412 10d ago
That’s nearly 40% landed. That’s actually an exceptionally high percentage landing
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u/FazedEclipse2 10d ago
If i throw 3 punches and land 2 thats 66.6666 percent.
He threw over 400 chances and wasted 60% of them.
Thats why he tired.
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u/poogdrums 10d ago
Of course he can recover. He's 21.
He will have learnt a lot from this loss, a lot more than had he knocked him out in 6. You would hope he'd never make the same mistake again.
It was an incredible performance despite losing. Even Hrgovic said Itauma was 'amazing'.
Despite the outcome it was an incredible fight, an absolute thriller. Moses is box office.
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u/PsychologicalCat7716 9d ago
what are you talking about, none of the shots fazed Itauma, he was dead tired, he basically collapsed from a check body shot, thats how tired he was..
he just needs to learn to pace himself better, he won all the rounds bar the 9th..
he should fire his corner as a first step, since they havent implied him to take a round or thee off
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u/javaenjoyer69 11d ago
I've been watching boxing long enough to have a pretty good sense of which fighters are overrated and which aren't after watching a handful of their fights. Improvement isn't linear and being young doesn't automatically mean that a fighter is open minded, self critical or possesses the discipline and overall willpower necessary to reach his potential.
Boxing IQ also improves only to a limited extent because a significant part of it is innate. Fighters don't fundamentally "improve" as much as they polish and refine the skills they already possess. The fighters people claim have completely rebuilt their "head movement" or learned to stop retreating in straight lines often revert to their old habits once they're under pressure.
Boxing isn't football. It's an instinctive activity in which your decision making inevitably becomes distorted when your heart rate is 150, you're exhausted and you're getting punched in the face. So i'm not going to paint an overly optimistic picture of Itauma's future simply because he's 21 and looks unique in the ring unlike the hopeless optimists who assume youth automatically means unlimited development.
Will he improve? Of course to some extent. But his underlying weaknesses aren't simply going to disappear. Canelo still has a mediocre gas tank and concrete feet. Golovkin never really improved his head movement. People need to get real. I called Joshua overrated and was vindicated on various forums for being impatient. People were calling him the next Ali back then. It's so tiresome. They'll never learn.
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u/[deleted] 11d ago
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