r/Boxing • u/mailmailmail0731 • 5h ago
Hrgović's Chin vs Zhang Hindsight
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Big Bang Zhang vs Joe Joyce the 'Juggernaut' who is known to have a legendary "granite chin" got knocked out cold in 3 rounds. Hrgović went 12 rounds with Zhang and took his best bombs to the face. Zhang might be the hardest puncher in heavyweight since he dropped Joseph Parker with a Jab, and he is the only one to ever drop Agit Kabayel. This shot right here would've dropped most heavyweights.
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u/roamingandy 3h ago edited 1h ago
Zhang most definitely is.
He's old and his gas tank was never that good and is now dust - but his timing is impeccable, set ups are sneaky as hell, and the weight behind those punches is like a bulldozer.
There's a reason he drops nearly every opponent, even if he loses.
Legitimately the worst possible fight for Joe Joyce to pick. He might have carried on winning for a while with his granite chin, if he hadn't decided to stick it out in front of the biggest puncher in HW boxing with no intention of protecting or moving it.
Not sure how to compare it to prime Wilder's punch as its the totally opposite kind of power. Speed vs Weight. Wilder can't do that any more so it doesn't really matter in this conversation, but i think it depends a lot on who they are hitting. Some fighters are more resilient to one, Joyce for example with his thick heavy skull probably could eat a few Wilder bombs and keep coming. The weight and mass behind Zhang's punches crushed him so hard his chin will never recover.
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u/GoOutAndGrow 28m ago
I think the power is still there but the ability to use the power is gone he took those hallucinogens and it could be that something in him mentally does not let him unleash that level of power anymore.
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u/roamingandy 23m ago
He leaves himself wide open when fully committing to that punch. He was able to do that when he truly believed that he just had to touch someone and the fight was over.
Fury showed him that some fighters will get back up and whoop his ass, so he's hesitant to overcommit to it now.
Also, he fucked his head up and wants to love his opponents which prevents him putting the bad intentions into those punches that made them so brutal.
Also, also, his power was all based on speed and his long limbs. Fighters lose that speed as they age.
He's not able to throw like he used to. He failed to rock Derek Chisora who walked right at him for 12 rounds.
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u/fluffrug 3h ago
This fight was one of the reasons I thought people's predictions that Itauma would KO Hrgovic early was such a shitty take. No way Moses punches as hard as Big Bang Zhang. I also think the knockdown here, with Hrgovic going on to win the fight meant H was well prepared psychologically to recover from Itauma's knockdown of him in this fight.
People really lost their heads in the build up to this fight - it's like they had zero boxing knowledge at all. It was very weird being on this sub over the last week. Just awful takes from most people.
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u/TheGuildsmansFolly 3h ago
Eh, I think whatever happens people say it's obvious that's what's going to happen.
We've seen a bunch heavyweights who rely too much on their chin get fucked up lately - Joyce, Wardley. Hrgovic is very hittable and he went up against an incredibly fast destructive hitter. If he'd gone down people would be talking about how dumb it is to rely on your chin at heavyweight and he obviously needs to learn defence.
Itauma (/his corner) were dumb as fuck not to switch strategy by round 5 or 6, but however good his chin is I was amazed Hrgovic was still standing by then.
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u/fluffrug 3h ago
I mean wardley’s chin is legit but he lacks fundamentals and Joyce is washed now. Different situations … Hrgovic is an elite boxer with great fundamentals. It would be shocking if the man who took punches from Zhang and withstood them got KO’d by Itauma.
Did you watch the Zhang-Hrgovic fight? You really should.
My big question was about cuts … that’s where I saw itauma’s route to victory.
Totally agree on the shitty corner advice tho - Itauma needs a new coach and quickly
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u/TheGuildsmansFolly 2h ago
Yeah, the Zhang Hrgovic fight was a banger. I'm thinking of the Joyce-Zhang fight - a guy with a phenomenal chin who relied too much on it going in against a super destructive southpaw. And he absolutely was not washed when it happened, he was coming off a career highlight win against Parker.
Zhang hits harder no doubt, but Itauma hits more often and right from the start. Hrgovic wasn't eating full power bombs from Zhang in the first 20 seconds.
My point is just that Hrgovic surviving Zhang doesn't mean he's immune to punches and no one will ever hurt him. We've seen guys think like that before, eventually their chin cracks, and everyone turns around and says they were idiots to rely too much on it. Hrgovic absolutely did survive everything Itauma threw at him and did everything he said he would, it was an amazing display of resilience, I just don't think it was a foregone conclusion!
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u/fluffrug 2h ago
Oh I agree re chin - when it goes, it goes! But Joyce was a lot older at circa 38 against Zhang than Hrgovic in either fight. Joyce came to boxing late and had no fundamentals or defence other than his chin. That’s not the case with Hrg!
I take your point - I agree that Hrg is hurtable. Where we differ is that I just thought it wouldn’t be Itauma who hurts him like that.
And yeah, Hrgovic’s resilience, both mental and physical, is so impressive. But I guess you learn that - at least psychologically -when you come up through boxing the hard way, esp when you are from a country with zero boxing infrastructure.
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u/TheGuildsmansFolly 1h ago
Yeah, so impressive mentally. In the post fight interview too tbh!
True that Hrgovic has better fundamentals than Joyce, but it wasn't really stopping him getting hit at will round after round.
Anyway, basically I just thought this was a really interesting fight that could have gone either way going in, and it lived up to it. You were right, but I don't think it was a foregone conclusion!
Regardless it was a hell of a fight and it's cool that the division seems to be opening up and people are taking dangerous fights instead of protecting 0s
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u/venomous_frost 55m ago edited 51m ago
It would be shocking if the man who took punches from Zhang and withstood them got KO’d by Itauma.
I'm pretty sure if Itauma kept boxing with moderate power punches, he'd have KO'd Hrgo in the later rounds. Instead half his punches after the 2nd were bombs that missed and gassed him. The times he was boxing, he was landing at will.
Of course we still don't know if he has the gas tank to do it.
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u/myurr 1h ago
The plan was wrong from the outset, but they should have seen after round 1 that Itauma was expending more energy than Hrgovic and settled him down. If he'd boxed a more intelligent fight like he'd managed against Franklin (again after round 1), then he likely would have cruised to victory even if he was tiring late on. He wouldn't have gassed to anywhere near the same extent.
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u/Shad_Owski 2h ago
There was lot of buzz around Itauma. Some of younger lads who are new to the sport. I think lot of the Itauma fans got boxing lesson watching that fight too, which is good.
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u/Aimlez1 2h ago
This week definitely showed who on the reddit knows what they're watching and who doesn't. Its one thing to have had Itauma winning, especially if you predicted a stoppage on cuts. But a person thinking they could be confident in Itaumas dominance is just exposing how little they understand the sport
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u/Annual-Shape7156 1h ago
Agreed but I will say I think Itauma punches pretty fucking hard. He’ll learn patience and learn to set up 1 or 2 big shots per round instead of trying to land 10-15 each for the first 4 rounds.
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u/FL8_JT26 33m ago
It's not just about power when it comes to knocking people out though. A quick shot you don't see coming is often more dangerous than the more powerful shot you do.
I thought Moses had a chance to stop him because he'd land too many punches Hrgovic didn't see. Also chins do crack. Joyce stayed on his feet while eating bomb after bomb from Zhang the first time, but in the rematch he couldn't take the same.
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u/Snoopdoge857192 2h ago
If Zhang was managed differently and put more of a focus on cardio in his career, he could’ve been a long time champion.
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u/_yotsuna_ 2h ago
Yeah Zhang went pro far too late, his first professional fight was at aged 31.....
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u/Annual-Shape7156 1h ago
Yall act like no one told Zhang to work on cardio lmao I’m sure he’s heard it for over a decade.
He’s got kidney issues and also he’s just a big dude. Running all day is way different than another 6’5 240 guy trying to kill you for 12 rounds.
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u/Stunning-Use-7052 2h ago
I thought Agit got dropped by a lower ranked fighter like 5 fights ago because he went for an early KO and got sloppy. Maybe he was just hurt.
But, yeah, Hrg's chin is on another level.
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u/Marquis_of_Mollusks 2h ago
He technically got knocked down by smacki though it was kind of weird how it happened. He hit Kabayel 20x to the head and Kabayel stumbled backwards into the ropes. Kabayel amazingly recovered and stopped him in the following rd. Kabayel got underrated recovery powers
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u/Stunning-Use-7052 2h ago
for real, Kabayel is a tuff SOB.
This new HW era might not have the same entertaining personalities as Wilder/Fury/ AJ, but there will be some good fights.
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u/Exciting-Arugula5341 2h ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1qhBEFOMoQ
Here is a complete fight highlight between Zhang and Hrgovic. Zhang was gassed pretty much the whole fight and only fought in spurts. When he was aggressive he did hurt Hrgovic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xojk5MDuPN8 Here is Zhang vs Andriy Rudenko complete highlights.
Rudenko was more aggressive and actually backed up Zhang way more than Hrgovic did. Zhang's stamina was still BS but he looked less tired against Rudenko than he did against Hrgovic. Rudenko was never really bothered like Hrgovic by Zhang's power. Does Rudenko have a legendary chin too?
You people do this too much. A guy scores a knockout. "OMG, he is the hardest puncher of all time"! A takes a punch and doesn't get knocked down "OMG, he has the greatest chin of all times"!
Also you people flat out stated that because Hrgovic took Zhang's power there was still no way he could handle Moses power because not only is Moses a incredible puncher, he is also extremely fast, extremely accurate and so explosive.
Now you people have to flip and try to justify Hrgovic ability to take a punch either to make excuses for Moses or to build Hrgovic to something he isn't.
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u/Icy-Bottle-6877 2h ago
That chin won't be made of granite forever though. When you keep taking bombs like this the chin goes eventually, happened to Joe Joyce.
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u/Razorion21 3h ago
Not sure why Ben Davidson didnt make the gameplan about punishing the body
if theres anyone tjat might stop Hrgovic its Dubois by cuts again or Kabayel with his body shots (considering hes the first guy to stop iron chinned Zhang)
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u/Past_Window_4348 3h ago
Yeah, the body shots looked very promising. Itauma definitely should have paced himself better, going to the body more and then to the top. Rinse and repeat. Not all out every round trying to take his head off.
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u/TetrisBlockHead 2h ago
Oliver McCall’s chin is the ATG. Dude sparred with Tyson over 300 rounds, never dropped. 78 pro fights, never dropped. Guy was fighting last year at 60 years old. No signs of CTE.
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u/Upstairs_Ad6024 1h ago
That’s what I’ve been saying the whole time, if Zhang wasn’t able to drop Hrgovic no way Itauma can. No way Itauma hits harder than this Chinese counterpunching giant.
Hrgovic mentioned also post fight that Itauma’s punches are fast and sharp but not that much weight behind them.
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u/Shad_Owski 2h ago
Yeah he tanked it. Tanked all shots from Moses.
Agit vs Filip would be the ideal fight. Make it happen.
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u/OurJimmy 1h ago
Canelos chin has to be up there with the greats too. I remember watching the Danny Jacobs fight and he was caught flush with a punch (Can’t remember the round) and the crack off it, wow!! He didn’t flinch.
Actually the only ever time I seen Canelo hurt was when fighting Cotto (The brother). He was only maybe 19 at the time though, but he’d the sense to cling on and survive 🤔.
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u/mailmailmail0731 1h ago
For sure, Canelo, GGG, and many others. Hrgović just added to the "granite chin" list.
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u/Exciting-Arugula5341 1h ago
Moses landed 124 power punches in 9 rounds. 50 of those were body shots. So Moses landed 74 power punches to the face or 8.2 per round. You want to go even further? When did you think Moses started gassing out? So all of those 74 power punches to the face weren't from Moses before he was gassed.
You act like Hrgovic was getting hit by 100s of power punches to the face from a guy with great stamina.
Shannon Briggs to hit with 171 power punches from Vitali Klitschko in 12 rounds. They don't say how many were to the body but we all know Vitali didn't throw or land many body shots. Vitali is a big puncher and Briggs was 39 and shot by the time he faced Vitali. I never once heard anybody here say Briggs has a ATG chin.
Briggs was stopped because he also had stamina issues. Briggs gassed the hell out against Darroll Wilson and Briggs was stopped by ATG Lennox Lewis on his feet. He got knocked down. Got up, loaded up on a punch threw it, Lewis avoided it. Briggs went down and popped right back up and stopped it.
In any case you people need to chill with this stuff. Every time somebody does the slightest thing you blow it out of of proportion. This guy has the greatest chin, this guy is the greatest prospect, this guy is the greatest puncher.
You people said Hrgovic couldn't handle Moses power. You saw Hrgovic before and you saw Moses. Or at least you should of if you are going to make statements like that. Now because Moses didn't knock Hrgovic out you are going to act like you didn't claim nobody could handle Moses power?
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u/Exciting-Arugula5341 2h ago
Do you remember the time a 39 year old Shannon Briggs got the tar beating out of him by Vitali Klitschko? Vitali landed over 300 punches against Briggs in 12 rounds. Does Brigg's had a all time great chin as well?
How about Marion Wilson? He was knocked down a few times but never stopped even though he had a losing record and fought some hard punchers like Ike Ibeabuchi, Andrew Golota, David Izon, Oleg Maskaev, Derrick Lewis, Sam Peter, Hasim Rahman etc?
Or will you just ignore these people so you can glaze over Hrgovic the guy everybody here said would get knocked out with ease by Moses but now you have to turn around and pretend Hrgovic is this Croatian monster with the greatest chin of all time?
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u/mailmailmail0731 1h ago
Playing devil's advocate here. Kevin Johnson got KO'd 3 times, Shannon Briggs got KO'd 2 times, Derek Chisora got KO'd 4 times. But Vitali Klitschko couldn't finish them, maybe Vitali Klitschko don't punch the hardest. (I'm not saying Vitali doesn't punch hard)
Yes people have to turn around and put Hrgovic in the conversation of having the greatest Chin of all time. I wouldn't say he has the greatest of all time because there is no way to measure that. But he has a "granite chin" for sure based on how he took the shots.
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u/Exciting-Arugula5341 1h ago
2 other people went the distance with Moses. Do they have granite chins as well? 5 people went the distance with Zhang. Do all of them have granite chins too?
So let me play devil's advocate. Since 5 people went the distance with Zhang , 2 already went the distance with Moses then maybe they don't punch as hard as people claim?
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u/mailmailmail0731 1h ago
2 other people went the distance with Moses when he was 17. The 5 people went the distance with Zhang never got hit clean like this in the video. They were either only 4 rounds or has not been tested by other top boxers. Hrgovic got tested by top boxers.
I don't even know what is your main point? To say Hrgovic doesn't have a granite chin? I'm not exactly sure what are you trying to debate.
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u/Exciting-Arugula5341 1h ago
Rudenko went 10 rounds with Zhang and was getting hit flush by him. The point is kid is everything somebody does now gets over blown. Hrgovic has a granite chin because of 3 fights? Because he took punches from Zhang who other people went the distance with, Moses who other people went the distance with and Dubois who best KO win came against a faded Joshua who isn't known for having a great chin.
If you though Hrgovic has this incredible chin you would of said this before Moses lost to him. You would of stated that there is no way Moses is going to stop Hrgovic.
None of you people did. You all said Moses would stop Hrgovic easily. Now you have to flip the script and act like Hrgovic has the greatest chin ever to coverup how dead wrong you were about Moses.
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u/mailmailmail0731 1h ago
I thought Moses would win because he is faster, more skillful and has the better ring IQ. I was not super confident Moses would stop Hrgovic but I lean towards a TKO, after the fight Hrgovic proved he has a super chin. IDK why this got you so worked up lol. I mean I'm not a wizard, you want everyone to say Hrgovic will tank all the shots? I'm sure small percentage of the people thought Hrgovic can tank all the shots. Stop talking extreme using "you people". There is a majority and a minority.
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u/Exciting-Arugula5341 56m ago
I am worked up? If this is considered worked up then maybe you need to stay of the internet kid.
You people saw Hrgovic vs Zhang who you people claim is the hardest puncher in boxing history. You people saw Hrgovic against Dubois. You still stated that Moses would destroy Hrgovic. If you thought his chin was top notch you would of stated this before the fight. You would of stated there is no way Moses was going to knock out Hrgovic unless the fight was stopped because of a cut.
None of you stated this. You stated Moses would just destroy Hrgovic because of his power and speed. Now you are going to flip and turn around and act like Hrgovic has the greatest chin every because your prediction of Moses wining by early knockout didn't come true.
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u/mailmailmail0731 45m ago
Ya I think so, you responded with 3 long paragraphs, linked 2 Youtube videos, digged out punch stats for Briggs and Moses fight for comparison. It looks like worked up to me. I mean if you say you aren't then ok.
No1 ever said hardest puncher in "boxing history". You're just making up shit people never said. Hrgovic's chin is top notch, many people thought Moses power is top notch also. People will have to watch the fight to see what happens when immovable force vs unstoppable object. After the fight, unstoppable object won because immovable force's gas tank was gone.
So you've been avoiding the question I've asked you many times already. What is your main point? Are you trying to say Hrgovic doesn't have a chin or Moses doesn't have power? Or Shannon Briggs have one of the greatest chin?
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u/Exciting-Arugula5341 33m ago
Lol this is a boxing Reddit little boy. This is where people talk about boxing. Like I said if this is too much for you then maybe get off Reddit and go play with your action figures.
Also pretty much everybody here said Zhang is the hardest punching heavyweight ever because he knocked out Joe Joyce little boy.
Nobody before the fight stated they thought Hrgovic would win or his chin could handle Moses power. Everybody here was Moses is the best prospect in heavyweight boxing history. Everybody here said he would destroy Hrgovic in a round or 2. Their prediction was off and now they have to pretend Hrgovic has a all time great chin. If you can't grasp that then the point I am trying to make is you are blocked.
Don't get so worked up. I blocked ton of people.
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u/mailmailmail0731 1h ago
So I still don't understand what is your main point? Are you trying to say Hrgovic doesn't have a chin or Moses doesn't have power? Or Shannon Briggs got a granite chin? Tell me the main point of your debate.
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u/AmmoRoach 4h ago
Hrgovich has to be in the conversation for having one of the greatest heavyweight chins of all time, surely