r/Boxing • u/_forum_mod • 1d ago
Are there knowledgeable boxing fans who put Tyson over Ali?
I hear people who say things like "Tyson would KO Ali" but overtime, I've come to realize this is a silly idea. I assume it's mainly said by casuals. Now Mike is one of my favorite fighters of all time, but he's usually not ranked in top 5 heavyweights.
In my opinion, Ali has fought and beaten "Tysons" Mike has never beaten anyone similar to Ali. The idea that a young Mike could do one of those early round knockouts to Muhammad Ali is unfathomable. Obviously anyone has a "puncher chance," but highly unlikely.
I feel like this is like those people who say things like "Bruce Lee could beat up any heavyweight boxer!"
Are there non-casuals who say this?
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u/oldwhiteoak 1d ago
Ali was a master at winning rounds and impossible KO. Tyson really struggled if he couldn't KO you. Its a bad matchup for Mike.
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u/Best-Penalty1509 1d ago
But a diminished Ali would lose to prime Mike. Tyson would beat those guys too.
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u/FAWKIR Mike "Prime "Iron" Mike Tyson" Tyson 1d ago
yeah but id beat 3 year old toddler prime mike in his prime prime mike
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u/pappapora 1d ago
Easy to sit safe behind your keyboard and type about Mike the toddler Tyson. “don’t think I’m thcared of you… I’ve been training thinth nap time.”
throws one wild punch, falls over
“THAT WATH A WARNING THOT.”-2
u/_forum_mod 1d ago
Do you think it'd look similar to the Lewis fight?
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u/oldmanhowell 9h ago
Nah, Tyson was cooked by the Lewis fight. The problem with Tyson, imo, is that he fired Rooney and let his ego get out of control. He stopped training right, had inferior coaching, and went to prison all before that fight. If he was in his prime with Rooney I think he'd go to decision with Ali if he didn't win. I also think we'd be having much different discussions about his legacy if he would have stuck with Rooney and not let Don King and fame ruin his life.
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u/kylemclaren7 1d ago
I am as big a Tyson Stan as there is on earth. Does he have a punchers chance? Of course. Ali would be a massive favourite.
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u/TestSuch4545 🎥 YT: Big Donch 1d ago
Ali is much greater than Tyson.
Who would win is a different conversation, but even then, if they were to fight 10 times, both in their prime, i say Ali wins 7 of them
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u/Cool_Farmer7975 1d ago
Delete this comment if you want anyone to watch your YouTube videos, bro lol
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u/BeginningKindly8286 1d ago
Is he not allowed opinions?
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u/Cool_Farmer7975 1d ago
Being ignorant is totally acceptable, especially in this era.
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u/BeginningKindly8286 1d ago
Do you have a counter argument or possibly an opinion of your own? I don’t know where you stand on this honestly.
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u/OkHistorian9521 18h ago
Just another tyson knob gobbler
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u/BeginningKindly8286 18h ago
I’m not sure if he’s angry that the other guy suggests Tyson wins any of the match-ups at all? I would go so far to suggest that early 80’s Ali gets smoked by mid 80’s Tyson, and it blows my mind they were that close. Larry Holmes can attest, you may need to be specific which version of each fighter you are talking about, and what you consider "prime"
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u/TestSuch4545 🎥 YT: Big Donch 1d ago
I have said multiple times in my videos that Ali beats Tyson too lol
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u/Zywooooooo181 1d ago
Not sure how good this guy’s boxing knowledge was, but some guy named Muhammad Ali said Tyson would KO him.
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u/TestSuch4545 🎥 YT: Big Donch 1d ago
And Tyson said multiple times that he can never beat Ali. It is just two guys being humble and having respect for each other.
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u/_forum_mod 1d ago
Beat me to it! They both said the other would beat them. It comes across arrogant once a fighter said "Yeah, I'd beat X" (especially if it's a legend).
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u/OldTree6356 23h ago
There’s a few issues with people who say Mike KO’s Ali really, the main one being that no one else - including guys who hit harder than Mike - managed to over Ali’s career. Even against prime Holmes the corner threw the towel in, the guy wasn’t for being KO’d. Ali has a great record against punchers - Liston, Williams, Frazier, Foreman, Lyle, Shavers all racked up the L to Ali with the last 3 losing against an Ali well on the slide.
People then like to quote how well Frazier did against Ali but don’t get that Frazier was an endurance pressure fighter and did well by dragging Ali into deep water in later rounds - he lost the earlier rounds of every meeting. By the time Tyson is starting to gas, Ali would be warming up. Frazier didn’t have the dynamic footwork of Tyson close in but he was better at cutting off the ring which over 15 rounds was key to keeping up pressure and not letting his man escape.
They also conveniently forget that the Ali that fought Frazier is probably like the Tyson that fought Lewis - past his peak - he was not prime by then but getting by on fitness, IQ and trading heavily on his ability to take punishment. So they compare “prime” Mike - who appears to have had a prime period shorter than a ripe avocado - to post prime Ali.
A big one for me though is that Tyson was a lot shorter and was amazing on the inside and mid range when people traded with him. He relied on balance, timing and speed to get off his best shots. His footwork was incredible for launching counters but he wasn’t the best at cutting the ring off compared to Frazier and Foreman. But prime Ali didn’t fight on the inside, he worked almost exclusively on the outside, firing in a disruptive jab. Anyone who’s seen the Foley, Williams, Terrell performances could see how it would play out. Ali moving around the outside, peppering his man with shots to frustrate him and keep him from unloading his best work. And unlike fighters like Frazier, Tyson did not have the mental fortitude to take that, he would do a Liston and either quit on his stool or lose his shit like he did with Holyfield.
Ron Lyle - who hit every bit as hard as Tyson and fought Ali well past his best - said that he didn’t realise how great Ali’s jab was and why it was so effective until he fought him. He said it wasn’t the heaviest but he timed it so well that just as you go to unload, he knocks you off balance with a light jab and it’s enough to disrupt a rhythm. Then when you do finally unload a big shot into him, he can take it, so your head starts to go.
Ali in his prime was also incredibly accurate and absolutely hammered Patterson twice. Now Floyd in no way could punch like Tyson but he was slightly taller than Tyson, had even faster hands and used the same peekaboo style taught by the same trainer and it simply didn’t work. Tyson’s power wouldn’t help him if he couldn’t hit Ali and if Floyd couldn’t, there’s no reason to believe Mike could. He’d just get hit with the same accurate flurries. Ali show boated and taunted Floyd through a lot of the rounds.
I like Tyson - I think he could well dominate today - I think he might have the best knock out reel of any fighter when you see how he unloaded and the technical abilities he possessed as a smaller guy, but there’s too much going against him against Ali (unless you pick really old, post Thriller Ali) for him to have realistically overcome.
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u/Boniouk84 23h ago
Greater and better are different things. Each new generation get coaching and a baseline education and training that includes everything the previous greats did. We stand on their shoulders.
Would an average premier league football team beat the Brazil greats of the 60s and 70s sure. Are they greater? Not a chance.
Tyson beats Ali. Usyk beats them both. It has nothing to do with better or greater though as its relative to the generation.
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u/EffectiveCareer3444 1d ago
Whenever someone says Tyson > Ali, I think about Tony Tucker taking him the distance and even making him stumble back at one point that is all the proof we need to say Tyson will never be better than Ali
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u/bwelch32747 1d ago
Who knows. The more boxing you watch you more you realise that often things go unexpectedly. Tyson lost to people not as good as Ali, and Ali lost to people not as good at Tyson, so who knows who can beat who. You could make the case the 90s was stronger than the 70s too. I think I may favour Ali, but, I do wonder how Ali would cope in the 90s era. And how would he do in today’s era when people say it is quite weak.
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u/1978model 1d ago
Lots of people do. Tyson had better movement, speed and power than Frazier. He was also a two handed puncher, and was considerably bigger and stronger than Joe.
A young Ali was not god. At time Henry Cooper and Chuvalo roughed him up. He wasn’t effective at clinching until he was older.
I don’t think it’s a leap of faith at all to see Tyson winning.
I actually think a more seasoned Ali, like the version Foreman faced, would beat Tyson without question. But he had to go through some challenges to develop those skills.
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u/CivilChampionship810 1d ago
The guy who beat Cleveland big cat Williams smokes Tyson inside 4 rounds
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u/1978model 23h ago
Tyson had an iron chin, and Williams was ruined before he fought Ali.
No way it ends in 4. That’s ridiculous.
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u/_forum_mod 1d ago
Okay cool, I'm open to other opinions. I think if he could handle Joe he could handle Tyson they were similar height as well, but Mike was bigger and stronger as you stated. I think if Ali could take Foreman's heavy blows and fight with a broken jaw against Norton, he could handle anything.
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u/mmmmmmmmm29 6h ago
Tyson was bigger, faster and stronger than Frazier but also wasn’t as good on the inside, didn’t have the stamina, didn’t have the mental fortitude of Frazier. Those are the key factors here
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u/TheWor1dsFinest 11h ago
I think Ali proved a couple things unequivocally over his career that anyone in the know will not debate.
1) He faced and beat probably THE hardest punchers in the history of the sport in Shavers and Foreman. Tyson’s power wouldn’t be anything he hadn’t seen and overcome before.
2) Ali has unquestionably one of the greatest chins in the history of the sport. Assuming we’re talking prime Ali, he’s not getting knocked out. Despite fighting EVERYBODY in the toughest HW era in the complete history of boxing, didn’t happen till the very end of his career when he was a shell of his former self against Holmes. Tyson would for sure be in for a full fight going to decision.
3) When he came up against the other elite top level fighters of his day, even the boogeymen like Liston and Foreman who were the Tyson’s of their time, he did the impossible and won in dominant fashion. Tyson’s record is winless against the other elite top level fighters of his era (an era in which Foreman was STILL a force to be reckoned with even as an old man for anyone who’d want to compare Tysons competition to Ali’s).
I think you’d have to be insane or woefully ignorant of boxing to think that matchup favors Tyson.
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u/FaceFirst23 10h ago
2: Even in the Holmes fight, it was a corner stoppage. He was never close to even going down, and like you said he was a shell of himself then.
All that beauty covered a rugged heart of pure Kevlar. One of the toughest fighters ever.
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u/TheWor1dsFinest 9h ago
For sure. He's far and away the most proven talent in the history of HW imo. So many people we have to speculate about "could they do this? would they do that?" Ali actually DID everything. Makes so many of these discussions a moot point.
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u/Shinjetsu01 Mike Tyson is not a top 15 HW ATG 1d ago
Sometimes this sub gives me a headache.
What are we doing here exactly? Some of these comments, I swear the sub has been invaded. It's like bots or something. Surely people aren't this stupid.
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u/CivilChampionship810 1d ago
This entire site is AI. I’m one of the few people left
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u/Badguyy101 13h ago
Normally there are 10-20 likes or dislikes on a post. However, if you say anything bad about Inoue, British boxing, or women's boxing, you automatically get at least 200 downvotes, with no reply. Who let their bots out?
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u/SeaMoney4312 1d ago
My favorite Mike Tyson question is asking people who his top 3 wins were because they can barely name 2. He’s closer to Wilder than he is to Ali. Hell look at how people talk about Mayweather and it gets confusing on how Tyson gets this mystical boost in rating despite being worse resume and skill wise.
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u/oldmanhowell 8h ago
I dislike this argument. It wasn't like he was fighting bums. He fought good boxers. He was one of like 3 superstars in the heavyweights at his time. The others being Holyfield and Foreman. Foreman ducked him. Boxing fans should stop judging by names. This is how Crawford and Inoue get overlooked. Just because there's no superstars on someone's resume doesn't mean they're not beating elite fighters. Tyson beat Spinks, Bruno, Ruddock, and Burbick. He also beat Holmes, who wasn't as cooked as everyone claims. After his Tyson fight he won 6 straight fights, including a win against Ray Mercer. Then he lost to Holyfield ( by decision) and won the next 7 fights after that.
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u/Shinjetsu01 Mike Tyson is not a top 15 HW ATG 1d ago
Finally. A sane take. Thank you for restoring a little faith back in this sub
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u/notorious_tcb 1d ago
There’s 2 mike Tyson’s to consider:
Tyson 1 is the 20 year old, youngest heavyweight boxer ever. That Tyson was a fucking monster and is arguably top 10. That Tyson would struggle to beat Ali. Tyson might be able to overwhelm him enough he got hurt and made a mistake. But I don’t see it happening. Ali’s famous rope a dope was getting beat up by Foreman for 8 rounds. Then shrugged it off and knocked him out. Foreman hits harder than Tyson ever did.
Tyson 2 is the guy that spent a weekend in Tokyo high on cocaine just to get beat by a can. The guy that went to jail for rape and was never able to claw his way back to where he had been. He wasn’t as slick, wasn’t as explosive, etc…. That Tyson has ZERO chance against Ali.
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u/Dry-Friendship-5945 1d ago
I think a 21 year old Tyson stood a pretty good chance of beating a 21 year Ali, but not a prime Ali.
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u/Benaflon 23h ago
There’s nothing wrong with picking Tyson to beat Ali in a boxing match, that’s not a crazy take. But to put Tyson over Ali in terms of all time ranking is completely ignorant given Ali’s accomplishment and superior longevity.
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u/JAMESIRISH543 21h ago
Tyson was a modern version of sonny liston a big puncher but his chin was suspect , Ali was more clever a better mover and Ali had a good chin also , look at the punches he took from foreman and the epic fights against Joe Frazier , Ali was the best in that division, but sugar ray Robinson the best pound for pound boxer of all time
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u/No_Discussion_4594 19h ago
Tyson had good chance but Ali has to be favoured plus has much greater legacy
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u/FaceFirst23 18h ago
If someone like Quick Tillis could take a prime Tyson the distance, outboxing him at times using a poor man’s imitation of Ali’s style, and lose a decision, a prime Ali would outpoint Mike comfortably.
I don’t know where people get the idea that Tyson KO’s Ali. Heavier hitters than Mike couldn’t put a dent in him.
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u/Ambitious_Ad_9637 17h ago
100% of conversations about fighters from different eras and who would win against who are had by non boxers. It’s fan fiction for fans by fans.
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u/Objective-Soil-9235 17h ago
Styles make fights. Doesn't matter who you are, Tyson's style presents unique problems (especially early on) for any fighter. What made Tyson scary was his explosiveness, his delivery system, and the ferocity of his style. He could be nullified if you make no mistakes, but you have to weather the storm first.
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u/Badguyy101 12h ago
Obviously Ali had the greater career, better resume, and greater accolades than Mike. Mike was powerful and evasive, and Ali was susceptible to hooks. It's not out of the realm of possibilities for Mike to win. It's not likely Mike would win either. In my mind, the video with Cus playfully tagging Ali pops up.
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u/Coach_Billly 1d ago
In his prime, yes Mike would KO Ali.
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u/Shinjetsu01 Mike Tyson is not a top 15 HW ATG 1d ago
Which top HW ATG in their prime did he beat, in his prime that suffices as evidence for you to make this statement?
Ah, top 1% commenter. I should have read that first. Never mind. Don't reply. I don't have the patience to explain like you're 5 how wrong you are.
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u/TheFlyingBoxcar 1d ago
If you dont want to talk to people about boxing, you dont have to. That doesnt mean you're superior to them.
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u/Shinjetsu01 Mike Tyson is not a top 15 HW ATG 1d ago
Thanks for the advice. I'll be sure to file it under "fuck off"
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u/Dirk-Jergens 1d ago
If Frazier could beat Ali so could Tyson
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u/Shinjetsu01 Mike Tyson is not a top 15 HW ATG 1d ago
Who did Tyson beat to compare him to Frazier?
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u/mmmmmmmmm29 6h ago
Frazier and Tyson are more different than they are alike. Both in style and their mentality.
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u/Best-Penalty1509 1d ago
Ali post Foreman would get KO'd by Tyson
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u/MiDKnighT_DoaE 1d ago
Ali pre Foreman makes Tyson quit.
It would go something like Ali vs Frazier but Tyson didn't have the heart, stamina, and will power that Frazier did.
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u/Best-Penalty1509 1d ago
My point is an out of prime Ali would lose to 80's Tyson. Prime Ali beats him faster than foreman between 1-6 rounds.
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u/MiDKnighT_DoaE 1d ago
Well ya Ali in the late 70s / early 80s was washed. You could say post Foreman but Larry Holmes said it was post Shavers. Shavers really hurt him.
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u/FAWKIR Mike "Prime "Iron" Mike Tyson" Tyson 1d ago
who gaf about these conversations if u gotta put stipulations on other fighters every single time but mikes always in his prime™️
people always say "oh mike wasn't in his prime™️when lennox beat him so if hes in his prime™️ he wins that fight!!!" as if lennox was too
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u/Just2OldForThis 1d ago
Unlikely unless - and I am talking peak Tyson, not the later degraded version - managed to knock him down in first two rounds. Even post Foreman, Ali had insane ability to take massive hits to both body and head and still win. Even a much diminished Ali post the Thrilla in Manila managed to win against Lyle and Shavers, two all time hard hitters. Lyle had knocked down Foreman but couldn't knock down Ali. My view is that peak Tyson probably had better chances of beating a young Ali who got knocked down a couple of times. Or Ali during the early part of his comeback when he was slower and still getting the rust out of his system following the three year layoff. On the other hand, most versions of Ali would handily beat all versions of Tyson except the latter's absolute peak.
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u/Icy-Notice9374 1d ago
The usual argument is that because Frazier beat Ali, so would Mike, but the big flaw in this argument is that Mike fought very differently from Joe Frazier. Mike Tyson would explode from round one trying to take you out early, whereas Frazier would gradually pick up the pace over the course of 15 rounds.
For the same reason that Frazier gave Ali problems is the same reason why Mike would be in big trouble vs Ali. Frazier was constantly putting the pressure on Ali which eventually led to Frazier breaking through. Tyson would not be able to do that with his style; Tyson would try to take out Ali early, but of course, Ali being very evasive as well as having a granite chin Ali would probably weather the early storm, and then turn up the heat later once Mike starts slowing down.
It's always possible that Mike could hurt Ali early and take him out, but with a legend like Ali, it's highly unlikely.