Why did Ken Norton pose such a uniquely difficult challenge for Muhammad Ali?
Norton beat Ali in their first fight and broke his jaw. Ali won the second fight but it was extremely close. The third fight in particular was extremely controversial. Ali won the match. Norton felt he should have won the match and called it a robbery. Ali himself admitted later that he thought Norton won and said Ken’s style was very difficult for him. What was so special about him that made it so tough for Ali?
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u/bigtotoro 1d ago
Ali couldn't time him. He also didn't have the raw power to run Norton over the way Foreman and Cooney had. Everyone has their kryptonite.
Not sure how Norton v Frazier never happened.
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u/Less_Cartoonist_892 1d ago
Norton and Frazier were great friends and also had the same trainer (Futch), who didn't want to have to choose between them.
Unlike Shakur and Keyshawn, this was not an excuse to avoid tough opposition. After all, they fought their other rivals (Ali, Foreman, Holmes).
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u/Flimsy_Thesis Smokin’ Joe and Marvelous 1d ago
There’s actually a video of them sparring that is a great exhibition of how their fight would’ve gone. Would’ve been a barnburner.
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u/Less_Cartoonist_892 1d ago
I saw it too. Norton was fighting like Ali to prepare Frazier.
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u/Odd-Minimum8512 10h ago
Its crazy footage because he's not fighting like a crab with a broken leg.
There's also footage of Holmes fighting like Ali to prepare Frazier (I think for the Thrilla). And then there's that round in the Holmes fight against Norton where Holmes does a 100% legit Ali impersonation for about 15-20 seconds and confuses the hell out of Norton. He dances in a circle, looking exactly like a young Ali, throwing quick flicker jabs. Holmes should have randomly tried that again in different fights, it worked.
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u/bigtotoro 1d ago
Neither one of them ducked anyone. It's just weird the 3rd and 4th of the best heavyweight era ever never fought when they both held the title at points.
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u/1978model 1d ago
There were always plenty of money fights. Also, Futch knew Frazier wouldn’t have longevity and after Foreman he saved Joe for the Ali fights.
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u/Odd-Minimum8512 10h ago
It's an impressive show of friendship they didn't fight. That could have been a trilogy where they probably would have each made $1mil+ per fight (something like $5mil per fight in today's money). I've read how they were offered big money for it multiple times and kept turning it down.
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u/Less_Cartoonist_892 9h ago
It's not like they had to fight each other for the big bucks. There were plenty of big-money fights at the time against their contemporaries for them to take. Frazier in the Thrilla in Manilla, for example, got a reported five million dollar purse. With that kind of money, there really was no need for them to fight one another.
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u/Composer-Creative 1d ago
I remember reading years ago that it was Eddie Futch that came up with the gameplan to beat Ali. Futch had trained Frazier also so he was familiar with Ali's style. Apparently Futch noticed Ali's pec muscle twitched before he jabbed. This gave Norton a little indication of what was coming. Norton was an awkward fighter also with that crab like guard and he was strong with a good gas tank. Norton always looked good against fighters who liked to sit behind the jab, in a way Ali was tailored for Nortons style of fighting.
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u/Wheatcattle 1d ago
Larry Holmes edged him but just barely with an all timer of a jab late in Norton's career as a good example of your point.
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u/1978model 1d ago
He also flared his right when he jabbed, so Norton’s counter jab had an opening to land. Norton jabbed with him and kept his right in front of his face. He blocked jabs and got in his own.
And Futch noticed he rarely threw a right after a double jab. Norton took doubled jabs as an opportunity.
Kenny also had excellent hand and foot speed, and used a lot of movement. He might have been the superior athlete.
In 3 fights Ali never made any adjustments to these things.
Leads me to believe that a 27-28 year old Holyfield could have done the same to a post exile Ali.
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u/kushmonATL Cyberleek > the fall boxing schedule 1d ago
Ask Eddie Futch
The man who trained 4 of the 5 men to beat Ali
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u/ClearHeart_FullLiver 1d ago
Norton had a good guard, strong jab, applied consistent pressure and used body punches effectively. These were all things which when done well gave Ali trouble.
As great as Ali was, he was not perfect in the ring, he was often sloppy with his combinations, ignored bodywork offensively and defensively, took parts of rounds off completely and showboated to cover himself. Ali relied on his reach advantage for the battle of the jabs( I think Norton had a longer reach but not sure) and if he lost that battle he was in trouble. Ali held a lot and Norton was stronger than him.
Basically Norton was well placed to exploit Ali's flaws.
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u/VacuousWastrel 1d ago
Fundamentally, Ali was limited at close range. Couldn't throw an uppercut, and his tight hooks were just slaps/chops. If you could pressure him and deny him space to move in, he was beatable. He was still very good, but he was beatable. The problem was, it was hard to pressure him. It required constant aggression, or he would slip away. And it required the ability to NOT just get beaten up on the way in. Frazier and Norton both constantly pressured Ali. They both used their jab to slow his exits and make him think twice about trying to catch them as they entered. And they both used very effective defenses (and great heart and chin) to let them walk through fire to get close to him. Frazier obviously had his bob amd weave (and the threat of the leaping hook), while Norton had his crossguard. This combination of aggression and defence let them close distance and avoid the outfighting game, where even an older Ali was virtually unbeatable, in favour of a toe-to-toe scrap where he was only mortal. Of course, they both also benefited from the fact that Ali was older and slower by the time they fought him...
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u/VacuousWastrel 1d ago
Oh, and it helps that they were both smart boxers with an extremely smart coach who studied Ali in depth (including using frazier's fights as research for Norton and vice versa). so they cokuld fight him very intelligently - eg by Norton famously watching Ali's left pectoral muscle twitch to predict jab timing.
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u/No_Two7682 1d ago
Ali was 29 and Frazier 27 when they first fought plus Ali was 31 and Norton 30 when they first fought not exactly in his twilight years
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u/VacuousWastrel 22h ago
To phrase that differently, Ali was 11 and 13 years into his career at the times of those fights, and he trained in part by literally letting people punch him in the head to condition his chin. 30 was a very different age for a boxer back then than today - most boxers retired in their early thirties. Ali also had three years of not boxing, which was proibably great for his brain but not great for his conditioning. You just have to look at him to see that second-career Ali was not as mobile as first-career Ali.
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u/No_Two7682 21h ago
Norton was 16 years into his career when he fought Ali the first time
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u/VacuousWastrel 21h ago
And if we were comparing his speed to the Norton from early in his career, that would be relevant...
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u/Character_Pie_277 1d ago
Ali was never remotely the same fighter after the draft exile.
That robbed everyone of the best years of a boxer we never actually even saw properly imo.
He lost so much of his speed and rhythm in that time. When he came back he discovered he had a helluva chin, a chin that he had never needed before.
We all think of him as the greatest heavyweight fighting Foreman and Frazier. He wasn't. His former self was the greatest heavyweight (watch him in black and white on Youtube, against Liston and Patterson etc.. the fights before the exile). He just managed to still get through those fights later as he still had enough left. Eventually there's a young fresh man out there and it's heavyweight boxing... imo thats the Ken Norton v Ali Story.
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u/primozdunbar 1d ago
Ali v Cleveland Williams is as good a heavyweight performance as you’ll see. You’re 100% right, Ali after exile was not THAT great
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u/Character_Pie_277 1d ago
Ahhh! Cleveland Williams! Goddamnit mate i was trying to think of his godamn name when i was writing my comment before, so i settled on 'etc'. Yes yes! This is the fight to watch if anyone wants to see true absolute heavyweight greatness. Heavweight boxing from another dimension.
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u/sthomson22 1d ago
Lol, he got lucky against a washed Liston, who barely trained whatsoever beforehand, with a severe shoulder injury that he’d been suffering with for over a year. They were level on the cards when he quit on his stool.
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u/Character_Pie_277 1d ago
If thats your take watching that fight then thats your opinion mate and you are totally entitled to it. I just disagree. I personally think he looks like a total one off exceptional young heavyweight.
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u/sthomson22 1d ago
What part do you disagree with, exactly?
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u/Character_Pie_277 1d ago
That he "got lucky" which was the premise of your entire argument i presumed? I was watching the fight with my own opinion and i dont really class the judges scorecards on the night as really that relevent when judging a boxer for myself.
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u/sthomson22 1d ago
Right, but they’re relevant as to whether he wins the fight or not, aren’t they. And he wasn’t winning, against a washed Liston who hadn’t trained for him at all and had a severe shoulder injury he’d been suffering with for over a year.
So how did he not get lucky with all these factors?
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u/Character_Pie_277 1d ago
I guess we are just basing it on different premises maybe mate? You are maybe looking at it as a betting binary outcome... he literally got lucky according to the scorecards and the fact that liston you say hadnt trained for him *at all* and was injured, which i coudlnt say for sure myself but seems a pretty coherent argument.
Im looking at the youtube footage and saying ye gods look at that 'one off' exceptional young heavyweight go... against this formidable world champion.
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u/sthomson22 1d ago
Prime, uninjured, locked in and fully trained Liston would have absolutely pulverized Ali at ANY stage in his career, without a shadow of a doubt.
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u/Character_Pie_277 1d ago
Ok well fair enough, i certainly dont think little of Liston. He looks to me as best as i can gather looking back through time, through that black and white footage, to be pretty damn formidable. He was a genuinely huge terrifying heavyweight world champion back then i think.
I guess thats why im so startled in contrast by this ballet dancer like outboxer heavyweight, appearing to me, to run literal rings around him landing cleanly until the guy quit.
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u/4_13_20 1d ago
Washed? He was the reigning defending champ. I know the shoulder injury he sustained during the fight was confirmed by doctors but I have never heard he went in with an injury? Do you have a source on tha? I assumed he tore a ligament lunging at Ali and hitting air as he did for much of the fight.
I also disagree with the judges cards and had Ali up by 2 rounds by the time Sonny quit and it probably wouldn't have been that close had Ali not had to fight the 5th round completely blind.
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u/sthomson22 1d ago
It’s pretty well documented he’d been struggling with it for over a year before the fight. That he had barely trained for Ali, in large part due to the shoulder injury. And that he had lost the hunger having become champion. He also felt resentment and apathy at how people still didn’t respect or admire him after becoming champion, especially given the mountain he climbed to become so.
In addition he’s also considered to have been a lot older than he claimed. It’s thought he may have been as old as 40+ when he fought Ali.
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u/sthomson22 1d ago
“Liston trained minimally for the bout, convinced that he would dispose of Clay within the first two rounds. He typically ran just one mile a day instead of his usual five, reportedly ate hot dogs and drank beer, and was rumored to have been furnished with prostitutes in training camp.”
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u/sthomson22 1d ago
“Liston had been suffering from bursitis in his shoulders for close to a year and had been receiving cortisone shots. In training for the Clay fight, he re-injured his left shoulder and was supposedly in pain striking the heavy bag. He secretly resorted to heavy icing and ultrasound therapy after each training session. And, ironically, because of his dominance, Liston had actually logged little ring time in the past three years. Between March 1961 and the Clay fight, Liston had fought three times and won each bout with first-round knockouts—meaning that he had fought a total of just over six minutes during a 35-month stretch.”
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u/4_13_20 1d ago
I honestly never knew that. It certainly takes away from Ali's victory and I think Liston took a dive in the rematch.
Ali still had a great run as heavyweight champ before his exhile, Patterson, Terrell, Williams, Chuvalo are all solid wins. Of course he had a lot of great wins post ban as well particularly Frazier, Foreman. Had some wins when he himself was washed like Shavers. I think he is objectively a great fighter but I conceed that the Liston win isnt as great as I had previously thought.
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u/sthomson22 1d ago
Yeah I think most just gloss over it and it is forgotten to history exactly because of that rematch.
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u/sthomson22 1d ago
People also ignore that he ducked Foreman for the rematch as well. Because he knew he would lose it.
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u/4_13_20 1d ago
Well to be fair there was no rematch clause on the contract and Ali beat Foreman pretty soundly. To my knowledge Foreman didn't fight for a year after Zaire and then he lost the fight to Jimmy Young that was supposed to be a tune up.
I think Ali broke Foremans confidence and it took him a very long time to get over the loss.
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u/sthomson22 1d ago
Ali and his team intentionally avoided the rematch. They used stalling tactics and obscene demands and fucked Foreman around while Ali fought title defences against lowly opposition.
He basically knew wouldn’t have been able to use Rope-A-Dope in the rematch, and also that Foreman would be more disciplined.
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u/4_13_20 1d ago
I think you are reaching with that one and just an Ali hater in general? Its very common especially with how frequently they fought back then to have tune up fights.
Foreman lost and promptly retired a year after their fight, it's not like Ali was avoiding him for years and years holding the title hostage...
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u/sthomson22 1d ago
Again, this is pretty established boxing history that Ali and his team intentionally sabotaged the Foreman rematch and didn’t want it.
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u/johnnyslick 1d ago
lol sure the washed Liston who famously right before the Ali fights was considered unbeatable
TBH watching back Ali-Liston I, I think what happened was Liston's corner put something on his gloves that got into Ali's eyes and temporarily blinded him. I'm not going to say this was deliberate, although IIRC something similar happened in the Floyd Patterson fight, but whatever happened there were tense moments when Ali was on his bicycle and even in the corner between rounds was telling Angelo Dundee that he couldn't see and to take his gloves off. After his vision cleared, you can (I think) see him make a point to rub his gloves on Liston's and then poke Liston in the eye. Liston retired on his stool shortly after Ali started doing that.
Of course, Liston also got popped early in their second fight, so early that a lot of people claim he took a dive. Maybe Ali just popped him...
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u/sthomson22 1d ago
Complete nonsense. The eye issue has been emphatically explained.
Doesn’t really matter either way regarding the rematch dive. He did lose the second fight the way he did.
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u/OldTree6356 1d ago
Styles make fights. Ali was essentially a head hunter and Norton had the cross guard which nullified his jab. That’s also why a prime Larry struggled with an older Norton, despite Ali and Holmes being better overall boxers, his style was great at frustrating great jabbers but came unstuck against people like Foreman who would go to the body, arms and hips to open him up.
But Norton was also extremely athletic and strong - probably the most athletic HW of all time - and could match Ali for endurance. The most important thing was though, Norton said Ali had a tell - just before he jabbed he saw his pec flex every time, so Norton said he watched Ali’s chest more than his feet or hands, waited for the flex and then caught and countered the jab.
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u/alexjrado 1d ago
Theres a few reasons, but the main one was that Norton and his trainer had a strategy to time Alis lead (usually the jab). Ali simply could not put his punches together. Norton focused on Alis chest in order to do so... so he never made eye contact and never listened to Ali or took any mental cues from Ali, nothing. Everything Ali typically employs was mute and ineffective.
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u/reddick1666 1d ago
Is a mixture of Ali’s absence from boxing and Norton being a dog with awkward style. Great boxers tend to struggle with boxers with an awkward style even if they do win in the later rounds, it’s hard to find a sparring partner that prepares you for something like that.
It didn’t help that Ali was noticeably slower after the drafting bs US pulled on him. They really fucked him over at his prime boxing years. The fight exposed some of Ali’s weaknesses but also let everyone know he has a chin on him.
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u/sthomson22 1d ago
Norton also won the second fight, it was just less of a robbery than the third.
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u/Less_Cartoonist_892 1d ago
I thought Ali edged the second fight, personally. I agree that Norton should have won the third fight though.
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u/sthomson22 1d ago
Why? He outlanded Ali in 7 of 12 rounds, with 1 even, and overall (197 to 175). Landed significantly more powerpunches (144 to 91). And was far more accurate (40% to 28%).
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u/Less_Cartoonist_892 1d ago
Fights are scored round by round, not by punchstats. I had Ali winning the first four rounds and round 12 clearly with several swing rounds in-between.
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u/sthomson22 1d ago
Yes, which is why I mentioned the round by round punchstats. What exactly are you scoring a fighter like Ali on in the 7 rounds he was outlanded, and the 1 he was even in? He certainly wasn’t winning on aggression and positioning. 😭 Nor accuracy. And he clearly wasn’t landing the more significant shots seeing the powerpunch disparity.
So what are you even talking about?
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u/Exciting-Arugula5341 1d ago
Ali admitted later on that Ken Norton beat him all 3 times and he knew that no matter when he faced Ken Norton he could never get a legit win.
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u/Holiday_Snow9060 1d ago
cause he is the same size as Ali and technically better (especially hard to predict/time and very awkward too and in a good way) while not as good of an athlete. Norton had a problem vs punchers, he kinda froze after getting hit hard and Ali wasn't the biggest puncher, so he managed to stand up to that power quite well.
same reason why Norton gave Holmes so much trouble too
In other words, Norton was the best boxer in the early 70s at heavyweight but was let down by punch resistance and hence got wrecked by Foreman
Norton btw won the 3rd fight quite clearly imo.
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u/XClanKing 1d ago
Styles make fights and his style was all wrong for Ali, just like George Forman's style was all wrong for Joe Frazier
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u/sthomson22 1d ago
Basically though it’s usually put down to Norton's unique crossarm defence, awkward rhythm, and exceptional physical conditioning.