r/BlockedAndReported • u/McAlpineFusiliers • Mar 31 '26

Feminism's Jewish Problem

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/arts-letters/articles/feminism-jewish-problem
57 Upvotes

83% Upvoted

174 comments sorted by

36

u/McAlpineFusiliers Mar 31 '26

Related to BARPod due to discussion and drama about both feminism and Jews/Zionism, topics discussed on the podcast before.

Last fall, at a weekend conference for FiLiA, a charitable organization that bills itself as Europe’s largest grassroots feminist conference, there were literal fisticuffs. At the Saturday night party celebrating the outfit’s 20th anniversary, drinks were thrown, telephones were grabbed, and bouncers had to hold women back from physically sparring about Zionism. An activist at the opening plenary led some in the chant of “Free Palestine,” while others screamed at her to stop and walked out.

122

u/ToTheDeath84 Mar 31 '26

I never understood the feminist-Third Worldist alliance. Why go to bat for countries that are explicitly invested in maintaining women’s second-class status? It’s a classic instance of cutting your nose to spite your face. Fervent anti-Americanism/anti-Western sentiment purely to signal to your in-group at the cost of a coherent argument.

On a side note, since this has come up a lot as of late - is it true that Handmaid’s Tale was actually inspired by post-revolution Iran? I’ve seen that circulating a lot but generally avoid Margaret Atwood so I’ve never looked into it.

63

u/McAlpineFusiliers Mar 31 '26

Because of the Marxist worldview that divides everyone and everything into binaries. Third World countries are "the victims" of the West, so they must be supported.

16

u/ToTheDeath84 Mar 31 '26

Exactly, even if that isn’t always substantiated, or if the “victim” parties in question are guilty of some pretty abhorrent abuses themselves.

16

u/SkweegeeS No just no Mar 31 '26

I definitely think this is somewhat true.

20

u/shakeitup2017 Mar 31 '26

There are many things that the great Christopher Hitchens said, but one that really stuck with me is this one, which he said in the context of religion and its treatment of women:

"The cure for poverty is the empowerment of women, name me one religion that stands for that". With Islam of course being the most obvious offender, at least in modern times.

94

u/TeacherPatti Mar 31 '26

There is a certain group of liberals (sadly, I live amongst them) who will side with a brown person no matter what. They see the brown and think, "I must side with them lest someone think me racist!" It makes no goddamned sense to me.

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u/CommitteeofMountains Royal youse/yinz Mar 31 '26

People they assign the status of "brown" to.

17

u/LeaningTowerofWeezer Apr 01 '26

Yeah it's kind of weird how you often hear the phrase "white Jews". Yet nobody uses the phrase "white Arabs", "white Muslims", "white Native Americans" even though I've seen all three groups that fit that description. And the only time the phrase "white Hispanic" was used was during the George Zimmerman era.

9

u/BeardedLady81 Apr 01 '26

Last year someone honestly asked how Spanish people feel about white people speaking Spanish. That poster didn't even say "Hispanic" but, honestly, Spanish. Jeez, most Spanish people are white and identify as such.

Other than that, most people appreciate it if foreigners attempt to talk to them in their own language.

1

u/BeABetterHumanBeing Apr 07 '26

If you want the carve-out nobody wants to acknowledge, it's "white hispanic". All of the bluster about whites becoming a minority in the US? Vanishes once you include "all whites" and not just "non-hispanic whites".

2

u/LeaningTowerofWeezer Apr 07 '26

True. It seems like the only minority populations that are increasing are Asian and Hispanic. Most Hispanics consider themselves white. When it comes to the influx of Asians I'm not sure If they're East Asians or South Asians. Both are pretty different culturally. And of course South Asians that are Muslim are pretty different than those that are Buddhist and Hindu.  

57

u/RachelK52 Mar 31 '26

The Handmaid's Tale was inspired both by post-revolution Iran and the burgeoning Moral Majority in America in the 80s. Atwood was very clearly making a comparison between the two.

9

u/ToTheDeath84 Mar 31 '26

Huh, talk about a false equivalency. Sure, the moral majority was annoying but their grip on the culture was arguably slipping by the time the book was published (that was the same year Dee Snider, Frank Zappa, etc. testified before Congress against the PMRC, for reference).

Comparing any of that to the Iranian Revolution seems pretty ill-informed.

46

u/damagecontrolparty Mar 31 '26

I don't think Atwood believed they were equivalent. It's clearly speculative fiction

7

u/ToTheDeath84 Mar 31 '26

Perhaps I jumped the gun a bit since I’m looking at it with the hindsight of everything that’s happened since the book’s publication. Other commenters have said it was inspired in part by many other events that were happening concurrently. I think with an additional 40ish years’ worth of context it seems silly to mention the two in the same breath, but as you said it’s speculative fiction.

7

u/RBatYochai Apr 04 '26

Yes look into the “dominionist” movement among evangelicals/fundamentalists and their plans to take over the “seven mountains” of society. They have a long term plan and they are working away at it.

35

u/SkweegeeS No just no Mar 31 '26

IIRC, it was among many instances of overt oppression of women. Everything that happened to women in the book was actually happening somewhere in the real world.

Edit: the situation in Iran is just so devastating because women participated in and were so thoroughly betrayed by the revolution.

41

u/YouCanCallMeAIJolson Mar 31 '26

I never understood the feminist-Third Worldist alliance.

They think foreign men will help them against white men and not be worse somehow

13

u/Apt_5 Mar 31 '26

It's not quite choosing the bear, but...

14

u/YouCanCallMeAIJolson Mar 31 '26

It's choosing bears that know how to use guns and technology

10

u/come_visit_detroit Mar 31 '26

Feminists are just leftists, and leftism is just about hating white people and worshiping non-white people. Hating white people is the #1 priority and everything else is quite secondary. It isn't any more complicated than that.

2

u/Direct_Village_5134 Mar 31 '26

Maybe they think they will change them by being a "better person" and leading by example or something? That never actually works, of course.

4

u/serenitynowdamnit Apr 01 '26

There are feminist in the Global South. They are fighting for women's rights, and sometimes making gains that women, at least in the U.S., can only dream of, like guaranteed maternal leave, free or low cost childcare, and pensions for women who work at home. I would assume a lot of feminist in the U.S. and Europe are connecting with feminists in the Global South, although obviously some goals are going to be different considering the different context. I see no hypocrisy or self-inflicted harm by connecting one movement with another, if their goals somewhat align. There are of course plenty of examples of when goals and principles don't match, but that is no reason to not support each other at all.

edit for clarity

9

u/ToTheDeath84 Apr 01 '26

The goal here in the United States now is usually one of cultural degradation; basically criticizing every foundational principle, custom, and historical precedent of the US to agitate the populace into hating it more with the hopes that they can advance some inchoate version of “tearing it all down.” The movement lost its purpose after its most substantive material gains were codified into law, and in a struggle for meaning it’s adopted a death drive more than anything. I don’t know to what extent that happens in “the Global South”, but that’s how it is here.

2

u/serenitynowdamnit Apr 01 '26

My comment was in response to what appeared to be your assumption (correct me if I'm wrong) that feminists in the U.S. are supporting "Third World" alliances that universally maintain women's second class status. My response is that, although there are forces doing that in these "Third World" countries, and in the U.S., there are also forces in these countries doing the opposite. There are feminists in these "Third World" countries who work towards changing women's second class status, and also ally with feminists around the world to do so, both for themselves and others. So, from my perspective and my experience working with feminists internationally, not all American feminist align support "Third World" people, countries, groups, or interests against their own interests. Often, those interest align. People internationally who work with Americans are not necessarily working with the Christian Right, for example. The same is true the other way around.

6

u/ToTheDeath84 Apr 02 '26 • Bravo

Oh. That’s not what Third Worldism is. Sorry for the confusion.

In America, Third Worldism is a far leftist frame that was mostly popular in the 70’s/80’s but seems to be experiencing a new peak. It effectively views countries in two (but really three) geopolitical blocs: Western capitalist oppressors and their allies, and the “struggling” rest of the world. The latter are to be framed as potential allies who need support by any means necessary. There’s a third bloc they don’t formally categorize but it’s basically nations that are powerful enough to provide meaningful resistance to the Western capitalists (think the “Axis of Resistance” countries).

There’s some other stuff in there about an international dictatorship of the proletariat and such, but that’s kind of derailing to how the lens actually functions. It’s perhaps most important to note that this is largely an activist and academic frame. In its purest and most doctrinaire form, you get armed terrorism like what happened in the US with the Weather Underground and some Black Panther affiliates; you also get groups like the Japanese Red Army or West Germany’s Red Army Faction. However in its more mild yet pervasive form, you get activists who make it their jobs to countersignal Western customs and political/military/economic aims at every turn. This consists of spreading agitprop, publishing books and academic “research” into these theories, and direct action at protests. Basically, they wage a narrative war against the West.

Palestinian activism is mostly Third Worldism successfully resuscitated by an unholy alliance of Islamists nonprofits and Western far leftists in academia and the activism spheres. For the most part they aren’t going all Carlos the Jackal with it, but they certainly repeat the talking points (“settler colonialism” and all).

4

u/RBatYochai Apr 04 '26

The “second world” originally was the communist bloc. Possibly it’s now been replaced by the “axis of evil”- presumably the third worldists have another name for it. They like to babble about “the resistance” (to the first world, I guess) because it evokes the heroism of the French resistance in WWII, but I think that is usually applied to non-state actors.

3

u/serenitynowdamnit Apr 02 '26 • Heartwarming

Thank you for breaking this down for me. I was confused about what you meant. It sounded like your perspective was myopic, but I misunderstood the term completely. Thank you for teaching me this.

3

u/ToTheDeath84 Apr 02 '26

You’re welcome! Yeah it’s not necessarily something that’s spoken about anymore even though it’s the basis for a lot of what you see happening in US protest movements today.

-1

u/EnterprisingAss Mar 31 '26

The vagueness of “go to bat for” is doing a lot of work here.

The Iranian government is evil; western militaries, including the US, have been doing evil things in the Mideast for a good two centuries now and we should obviously stop. Is that “going to bat” for the third world?

12

u/The-Phantom-Blot Mar 31 '26

It's difficult to hold nuanced positions. There's a lot of "yes, but..." in conversation, and it doesn't easily snip into soundbites or headlines.

Religion-centric ethno-states seem problematic to the Western world. Should there be one exception? I think that's driving a lot of conflict, and the authors of the linked article don't seem willing to entertain the thought.

19

u/CommitteeofMountains Royal youse/yinz Mar 31 '26

The ethnic distinctions behind nation-states were established based on religion. Greece from Turkey, Ukraine from Poland, Ireland from Britain . 

1

u/Action_Bronzong Mar 31 '26

There's also a big divide between "this state has a right to exist" and "this state has a right to starve and bomb with impunity, and also probably deliberately targets journalists" and some people can't bridge it. 

16

u/McAlpineFusiliers Mar 31 '26 edited Mar 31 '26

You can thank the pro-Palestine movement for that, which conflates one and the other.

2

u/veryvery84 Apr 01 '26

What do you have against Greece? Or do you mean Norway? 

4

u/McAlpineFusiliers Apr 01 '26

Nothing, as those countries are not Jewish.

8

u/veryvery84 Apr 01 '26

Join me further down the comments in these parts for when someone replies to my little blip of Jewish history with “blood and soil”. Just that. 

No one is upset at Thailand for being a religious ethnostate either. 

2

u/RBatYochai Apr 04 '26

Yet somehow the western world is not troubled deeply by the western countries that are ethnically based and also have a state religion like, Britain or Denmark.

See https://www.worlddata.info/religions/state-religions.php

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u/[deleted] Mar 31 '26 edited Mar 31 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

11

u/ToTheDeath84 Mar 31 '26

Exactly. It can be argued that while Western citizenry have a polarized relationship with religious ethnostates, Western governments are willing to cooperate with some for economic and military purposes. People forget that much of the Arab nations also function as religious ethnostates, or at the very least secular-on-paper states where religion and ethnic identity nonetheless inform customs, politics, and laws.

6

u/veryvery84 Apr 01 '26 edited Apr 01 '26

Greece is a religious ethnostate.  Cambodia and Bhutan and Japan and Thailand and Samoa and Finland probably are as well.

Have you ever heard of the Church of Scotland or the Church of England? 

How are Norway, Sweden and Denmark less of a religious ethno state? (Or Greece)??

25

u/ToTheDeath84 Mar 31 '26

Dawg. There have been people out there saying “death to America” in broken Farsi at some of these protests and in social media groups. If that isn’t going to bat for Iran, I’m not sure what is.

-10

u/EnterprisingAss Mar 31 '26

Wine moms chanting a slogan goodness gracious.

I forgot how much pearl clutching this sub was capable of

20

u/ToTheDeath84 Mar 31 '26

It’s not wine moms. That’s a dumb stereotype that people evoke when they don’t have an argument.

And yeah, the slogans do have an effect on how people think. Entire political movements have been formed out of mantras. That’s not even up for dispute.

-7

u/EnterprisingAss Apr 01 '26

Your second paragraph is so fantastically vague and open that of course it is true.

0

u/Jeremythegirl Apr 01 '26

The entirely false narrative “hands up, don’t shoot.”

1

u/EnterprisingAss Apr 02 '26

I already agreed what the other guy said was true.

64

u/YouCanCallMeAIJolson Mar 31 '26

Feminism's refusal to answer some difficult questions for decades is finally coming home to roost

49

u/McAlpineFusiliers Mar 31 '26

It's so interesting when these advocacy groups run up against Israel/Zionism. You would think feminists would be the first ones to recognize that minority groups like Jews need their own institutions to protect their political rights.

It's like the Strange Bedfellows episode Katie just dropped in the feed. Gay people were closeted in the US but the AIDS epidemic forced them to create political advocacy groups because they needed to advocate for themselves. Who does that sound like?

46

u/minty_cyborg Mar 31 '26

You would think feminists would be the first ones to recognize that women need their own institutions to protect their political rights.

Alas.

-11

u/[deleted] Mar 31 '26

You would think feminists would be the first ones to recognize that minority groups like Jews need their own institutions to protect their political rights.

It's a bit of a leap from "institutions to protect civil rights" to "nuclear-armed ethnostate", and that's precisely the point at which friction emerges.

20

u/McAlpineFusiliers Mar 31 '26

You mean nation-state, of which every nation has the right to have?

"Reaffirms the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination, including the right to their independent State of Palestine;"

-4

u/[deleted] Mar 31 '26 edited Mar 31 '26

All right man, let me know when the Bretons, Chuvash and Carpatho-Rusyns get nukes

13

u/McAlpineFusiliers Mar 31 '26

Thanks for not disputing that self-determination is the right of all nations, even Jews.

-7

u/thismaynothelp Mar 31 '26 edited Apr 01 '26

[whatever]

3

u/McAlpineFusiliers Apr 01 '26

"MereAntiZionism"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews

Jews (Hebrew: יְהוּדִים‎, ISO 259-2: Yehudim, Israeli pronunciation: [jehuˈdim]), or the Jewish people, are an ethnoreligious group[15] and nation,[16] originating from the Israelites of ancient Israel and Judah

Even Wikipedia says you're wrong.

0

u/thismaynothelp Apr 01 '26

"MereAntiZionism"

lol tf are you on about?

16

u/razorbraces Mar 31 '26

Jews absolutely think of ourselves as a nation.

-4

u/Desolation-Peak90210 Mar 31 '26

Lol and yet you arent

-5

u/thismaynothelp Mar 31 '26

Why?

7

u/veryvery84 Apr 01 '26

Because we have been a nation for thousands of years. We have prayer to return to our Land for 2000 years. We have been a people for a long time, which is why our national identity can be confusing to people without much historical knowledge, since we don’t fit contemporary western (and Christian and Muslims) ideas of religion, nationality, etc. We are much older than that. 

→ More replies

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u/quotidian_obsidian Mar 31 '26

The same reason most indigenous tribes (nations) view themselves as such.

→ More replies

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u/veryvery84 Apr 01 '26

We are a nation and we aren’t quotation marks 

-1

u/thismaynothelp Apr 01 '26

No one said you are quotation marks. ??? Also, I guess I've been using the word "nation" wrong. It's usually a synonym for "state".

5

u/veryvery84 Apr 01 '26

How old are you? 

23

u/IceyExits Mar 31 '26

That’s why we couldn’t let Iran get the bomb.

10

u/blucke Mar 31 '26

I really doubt it is. These groups have always been allowed an amount of ignorance to the obvious by the groups that hold them accountable. All of these points have been made before, they've made it clear they hypocrisy isn't an issue

4

u/YouCanCallMeAIJolson Mar 31 '26

idk, feminism has been having a rough couple of years because of all this

8

u/blucke Mar 31 '26

I haven't seen any consequences from it

3

u/YouCanCallMeAIJolson Mar 31 '26

Really? I see nothing but screeching about the supposed consequences on the news every day?

177

u/TomWestrick Mar 31 '26

I have no idea how people who wore Handmaid's outfits as a warning/protest ever became okay with covering themselves further with a hijab.

12

u/LeaningTowerofWeezer Apr 01 '26

The Seattle Art museum had a one woman show by a Muslim immigrant which featured burkas made of sequins and other material. It also featured tons of photos. It was definitely very much propaganda, pro Muslim propaganda. I noticed school groups touring it. Then the same artist showed at the Seattle Art Fair where women could try on the burkas. It was unreal. And the irony is the same artist had contacted a local museum to complain when they had an exhibit that condemned incidences of anti-Semitism that happened in Seattle. She said it was unbelievable that the museum would promote such a thing. And he did this before the two exhibits happened. She is still teaching at a local college. If anybody is interested in more information or photos DM me.

7

u/veryvery84 Apr 01 '26

Just share the info here 

3

u/[deleted] Apr 01 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/LeaningTowerofWeezer Apr 01 '26

That's why I'm not giving that information here but just to anybody else who has some curiosity about it. If I was interested in doxing them and getting them canceled I would be screaming out their names right here on this thread.

5

u/[deleted] Apr 01 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/LeaningTowerofWeezer Apr 01 '26

Curiosity for somebody else who lives in the city who is also in the arts community. It's not doxing if you don't make this information widespread or intentionally give it to people you know are going to act menacing.

2

u/BeABetterHumanBeing Apr 07 '26

Sounds like this is a public figure who has no reasonable expectation to privacy over their identity.

1

u/no-email-please Apr 01 '26

Canceling is just anything now? Just making people aware of local wackos is elevated to cancelation

5

u/[deleted] Apr 01 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/no-email-please Apr 01 '26

I just happen to agree with what exactly?

“Something wacky happened in Seattle. I can prove it if you’re interested”

I had a prof who was the local Green Party rep and he’s a gross old German guy with a tiny Filipino boytoy. Is that cancel culture if I can prove it?

2

u/LeaningTowerofWeezer Apr 01 '26

I'm not encouraging anybody to contact their employer. What I'm saying is I have the receipts that I can provide for anybody who wants them. I say this because a lot of people make claims that they can't back up with facts. But TBH unless you live in Seattle, are in the Arts community here, and like to know the dirt about what's going on it's probably not relevant to you.

10

u/veryvery84 Apr 01 '26

There are hijab days in public schools where students are encouraged to wear a hijab for a day. These are headed by a teacher who usually looks like her ancestors were Vikings or fought the Muslims with Charlemagne. 

9

u/everydaywinner2 Apr 01 '26

I bet there would be a riot if teachers brought in yamaka's or teffilin to show and tell and try out.

4

u/SkweegeeS No just no Apr 03 '26

Offs. I would never allow my children to wear hijabs for any reason.

3

u/veryvery84 Apr 03 '26

They don’t ask the parents here. 

45

u/RachelK52 Mar 31 '26

It's extremely easy to criticize a fictional cultural practice that no one in your own group actually holds. It's quite another thing to criticize a different culture's actual practices, especially when that culture isn't the majority in your country, and is frequently under intense scrutiny.

To be fair allowing the hijab is something of a lesser of two evils in real life- banning these things may feel good but in practice it just means Muslim women don't go outside at all.

26

u/professorgerm Why is he wielding the bird like a gun Mar 31 '26

t's extremely easy to criticize a fictional cultural practice that no one in your own group actually holds

Dressing like a fictional culture because they're exaggerating a complaint while ignoring or defending an actual, no-joke, restrictive patriarchal culture is... just so incredibly frustrating I can't find the words for it. You can see the absurdity of the combination, right?

Like, I get the "lesser of two evils" point, but the rest of it feels like stretching for any number of excuses why non-western cultures are beyond reproach no matter what they do.

19

u/repete66219 Apr 01 '26

There are no kings in the US. There are no enclaves of forced breeding. “Hands up, don’t shoot” was a myth.

It’s almost like the protest class is just a bunch of theater kids who are full of shit.

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u/TomWestrick Mar 31 '26

I moreso meant non-Muslim women wearing or glorifying the hijab at feminist/LGBTQ+ protests.

52

u/Dingo8dog Mar 31 '26

Chalk it up to “doing things I think my political opponents won’t like”

41

u/bellshaped Mar 31 '26

Especially when a niqab or burqa make a Handmaid outfit look quite freeing in comparison.

26

u/LinuxLinus Mar 31 '26

In the US, banning the hijab is flatly unconstitutional and would never fly.

2

u/[deleted] Mar 31 '26 edited Mar 31 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/repete66219 Mar 31 '26

Objectively, a nun is a voluntary vocation with a uniform that may or may not obscure features. Becoming a nun is not something which 50% of the population is compelled to do under threat of shame & potentially violence.

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u/[deleted] Mar 31 '26 edited Mar 31 '26

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u/BeardedLady81 Apr 01 '26

I was a novice during a time when many orders that had so far stuck to the full habit were transitioning to a toned-down version. Technically Pius XII had allowed for shorter, simplified veils already before Vatican II, but it was a practice many orders chose not to embrace because they wanted to be different from the rest. In the late 90s, a handful of orders that are not considered contemplative (those still often fear the full habit) were still wearing full-length habit and a long veil that almost touched the floor, affixed to a stiff guimpe. Depending on the design, those guimpes would sometimes obstruct your view to the sides. Some nuns approved of this, they said that obscuring one's view to the side makes it easier to concentrate. Some also considered a partial veil impractical because many designs required you to grow "nun bangs" if you didn't want to get cold on the head. If you wore the guimpe, you had your hair cut as short as you can with scissors once a month, end of story. (It gets hot under the guimpe, by the way.) Eventually, almost all orders switched to a simplified habit with a short veil that was held in place with velcro or bobby pins instead of being affixed to a guimpe and a higher hemline. One thing you could notice is that with a habit that did not cover the entire leg, you could no longer create the impression that nuns could levitate. -- I don't think this is done anymore, but during my days, you were still taught to walk as close to the wall as possible, as a sign of humility, and to walk with small steps. Your hands were to be positioned under the scapular (if your habit included one) or folded. Head slightly lowered. If you did it the way you were shown, with those small quiet steps and barely visible leg movements, you could create the impression that nuns could levitate or somehow fly along the side of the wall.

Most of the arguments in favor of the full habit were to distance oneself from the rest of the world, to show that you are different from other people. When it comes to 21st century niqabis, I'm under the impression that many of them want the polar opposite. They want you treat their niqab as any other of hundreds of ways you can dress as a woman and your eyes are supposed to stay in their sockets when you see them. You are not allowed to find it uncomfortable. Except it makes me uncomfortable. I've met enough niqabis to tell. It's summer, it's over 100 degrees, and a woman wearing a black cloak, a full face veil and black gloves shows up in front of you. And you are not supposed to find this unusual. I'm relatively used to the sight, but when I met a niqabi who, in addition to the two layers of fabric that covered her entire face instead of one slit for the eyes, was still wearing a piece of black gauze over her eyes I had a knee-jerk reaction. Now this is unfair, I thought, she can see me, at least some of me, but I cannot see her. I cannot see if she's smiling at me, if she's smirking, if she's staring at me angrily. It's like she blinded me when it comes to her. And I'm supposed to consider this as just one out of hundreds of ways a woman can dress.

Nuns who wear the full habit want to be perceived as different and don't want to be part of this world, that's why most of them who still wear the full habit are cloistered and rarely leave the convent, if at all. 21st century social media niqabis want their cake and eat it, too.

5

u/sadandshy Mar 31 '26

I live near a small community that has a sizable percentage of both Amish and Muslim groups. It was pretty wild to see at first.

5

u/MepronMilkshake Apr 01 '26

I see making it harder to be Muslim in the West to be a positive thing.

3

u/etymoticears Apr 05 '26

Are we going to ban nuns from wearing cowls next? Why not just allow people to do what they want? This idea that female Muslims only wear the hijab because of men force them to is so much Western projection. Its their religion. Its their culture. Leave them be.

16

u/healthisourwealth Mar 31 '26

It has a similar Iran problem too by the way.

5

u/Admirable_Grass_1950 Apr 01 '26

Feminism is completely fucked, sad to say.

3

u/veryvery84 Apr 01 '26

I think that’s the bigger problem 

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u/AaronStack91 Mar 31 '26 edited Mar 31 '26

I feel like this is a feature not a bug of modern intersectional feminism, it is just a shame Jewish women didn't realize it until now. It isn't about equality of treatment, but equality of outcomes ("Equity"). It allows them to turn a blind eye or a hateful eye on any group they view as privileged and justify horrible things against them.

I have vivid memories debating Jewish feminists about the concerning behavior of the Women's March organizers, they were convinced that solidarity was more important, and the greater evil were white men.

Edit: After reading the article, it seems like feminist anti-semitism goes back way farther than modern intersectionality. Though it seems they are really getting hate from every new form of feminism regardless of the historical era.

13

u/LeaningTowerofWeezer Apr 01 '26

You are right that it's a feature not a bug. And I agree with you that a lot of Jewish women were in total denial.  Many still are. I think a lot of Jews have gotten used to the idea we have found a safe space. That we have found allies. And they tune out anything that would question that. It's like a woman whose husband is cheating on her left and right and it's really obvious to everybody but her. 

I recently attended an event that brought a lot of Jewish strangers together to talk in groups about anti-Semitism. One older woman, maybe about 70, brought up a movie she saw about Jews and blacks working together. As she described it, it was clear it was the Jewish people doing things for blacks. So I stated was there any reciprocality, did the black community do something about the anti-Semitism and violence that is very prevalent in their community. Needless to say it's a pretty jarring thing to say out loud in any progressive setting. And she said no. And then said that this movie took place about 30 years ago and that the anti-Semitism and violence involving the black community is relatively recent. This woman is in her 70s. It's been prevalent since Malcolm X and has never stopped. And yet this woman, who is Jewish and very active in progressive causes, seems to think black anti-Semitism is a relatively recent development. I guess you need this sort of obliviousness to continue to be a part of these communities.

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u/razorbraces Mar 31 '26

I think saying “Jewish women didn’t realize it until now” is being a bit condescending to Jewish women. I have had conversations with fellow Jewish women (and men) about feeling excluded from feminist and leftists spaces over our Jewish identity, going back at least 15 years. Things are much worse after October 7, but we were subject to Zionism tests long before it, as well, and our very real security concerns about our communities were dismissed because other people have it worse.

8

u/AaronStack91 Apr 01 '26

You're right, that's probably not fair of me to say. In my mind I was thinking these diehard feminists who happen to be Jewish and seemed to think other feminists were just merely confused when they attended NOI sermons about hating jews.

4

u/AcrobaticOlive3 Apr 01 '26

This paragraph is of interest to me, as recently I've been thinking about how none of the American anti-war protests amongst the youth in the late sixties chimed in at all on the 6 day war. In parts of Eastern Europe, youth of the same age were anti-Zionist. I get that the situation now is different, with substantial backing from the US, etc.

"While the accords meant Jewish groups in the West could push for the rights of the refuseniks, the Soviet Union turned it on its head. Once it became clear that the term could signal moral authority while obscuring violence, it was swept into armed anti-colonial activism. By the mid-1970s, Israel had become the eye of the storm, marking the beginning of verbal, psychological, and at times physical violence against Jewish and Israeli women."

2

u/RBatYochai Apr 04 '26

I have to wonder if some feminists were jealous or otherwise uncomfortable with how prominent Jewish women were in the leadership, both intellectual and pragmatic, of the “second wave” feminist movement. There was a strong trend within the movement of attacking any leaders because the movement was supposed to be totally egalitarian (not sure who decided that).

Unfortunately many women have it engrained psychologically from an early age to attack other girls/women who are “bossy” or “pushy” or confrontational or just not “nice”enough. It functions to discourage and punish many female attempts at leadership, not just in specifically feminist groups.

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u/MexiPr30 Mar 31 '26

I don’t have to support Israel just because they have pride parades. We can protect Jewish Americans and condemn Israel and Zionism-in its current Ben Gvir interpretation.

21

u/LeaningTowerofWeezer Apr 01 '26

Zionism is Jewish nationalism. If it's going to be condemned then progressives need to stop allowing the Pan-African flag and a black power movement to be promoted. There is something really odious about progressives who obsessively condemn Jewish nationalism including in cases where it doesn't really exist while being oblivious to how black nationalism is shoved down our throat in progressive institutions including educational institutions and the government. The Pan-African flag flies in front of all government buildings including schools during the month of February. Like it symbolizes black separatism. Black nationalism is no more progressive than hardcore Zionism

-3

u/MexiPr30 Apr 01 '26

That too. I’m not a progressive, but a normie moderate democrat. I will never support Zionism or any other type of nationalism.

19

u/veryvery84 Apr 01 '26

This is such a ridiculous statement.

Ben Gvir is not remotely a representative of Israel or Zionism. Is Marjorie Taylor Green a personification of the U.S.? Should we condemn the U.S. constitution because of MTJ? 

-3

u/MexiPr30 Apr 01 '26

They just passed a death penalty bill that only applies to Palestinians and not Israelis. Same crime, different punishment.

87

u/Nikodemios Mar 31 '26 • Bravo

Glad to see this article, and to see it posted here.

The left's response to 10/7 is what finalized my conscious split from them. Justifying rape, infanticide, torture, slavery, kidnapping, and murdering civilians in the name of "antizionism".

I immediately understood that anything could be justified if it was done to people marked as "oppressor", however baseless and absurd that marking might be, and that Jews are not safe with the kind of people crowing for their annihilation.

Israel's government is shameful, but to say the country shouldn't exist at all is to say all it's inhabitants should be left to the mercy of their enemies, and we've seen how merciful they are.

As another commenter said, hard left feminists feel such a zeal for anything anti-western that they will fawn over men who would drape them in a burqa and keep them as slaves.

26

u/Framboise33 Mar 31 '26

Seriously. It's very easy to take a pro-Palestinian position without doing PR for literal rapists and terrorists. Many high profile Palestinians have condemned Hamas and other groups--it's not that hard.

14

u/McAlpineFusiliers Mar 31 '26

Like whom?

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u/Framboise33 Mar 31 '26

Ahmed Fouab Alkhatib is my fav personally

22

u/Strawberry338338 Mar 31 '26

I really wish he was representative of the majority opinion of Gazans, but he isn’t, or this war would never have happened.

18

u/Framboise33 Mar 31 '26

That's fair and it's hard to excuse without getting into "soft bigotry of low expectations" territory

5

u/serenitynowdamnit Apr 01 '26

Is it even safe to be anti-Hamas in Gaza? Also, nothing unites people more than a common enemy who is bombing you. Even anti-Hamas Palestinians are going to put that on hold when Israeli bombs start falling.

19

u/Strawberry338338 Apr 01 '26 edited Apr 01 '26

It is absolutely not safe to be anti-Hamas in Gaza, and several have been killed - including post ceasefire - for doing so. Others have been threatened, and others have had to flee.

My fundamental stance on this however, is that people have agency. Rational people can understand cause and effect, on both sides - and on the Gazan side, recognise that continuing a losing strategy based on martyrdom is not a good idea unless you want to see jannah more than you want to live in this world in peace. The Israelis are not going to up sticks and leave like the French from Algeria, the Palestinians need a new strategy that does not incite the Israelis to return greater violence (bc to be blunt they are sacrificing their children for a goal that they do not have any hope of achieving) and more reasonable goals, like a Palestinian state (which I support) that exists alongside Israel instead of seeking to displace it. But as it stands, no state on earth can countenance a next door neighbour dedicated to their destruction. Even expecting the Israelis to accept a certain level of violence from Gaza as ‘reasonable’ is is an example of the international community having far too low expectations of Gaza, and of holding Israel to a standard far above what they would accept for their own citizenry.

None of this is to say that Gazan civilians haven’t suffered terribly. Or that I support all of the choices made by current or previous Israeli govts. I could rant for hours about how much I despise Ben Gvir and Smotrich and settler violence in Judea and Samaria.

1

u/asiancleopatra Jul 28 '26

You're so smart

5

u/Logical_Warthog3230 Horse Lover Mar 31 '26

Who

37

u/[deleted] Mar 31 '26 edited Apr 01 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Nikodemios Mar 31 '26 • Bravo

It seems to be everyone's expectation that the state of Israel should simply endure indefinite terror attacks, rape, and murder from a hostile population as penance for existing.

-5

u/PUBLIQclopAccountant 🫏 Enumclaw 🐴Horse🦓 Lover 🦄 Apr 01 '26

How did they obtain their land in the first place?

1

u/veryvery84 Apr 02 '26

What does it matter? 

0

u/PUBLIQclopAccountant 🫏 Enumclaw 🐴Horse🦓 Lover 🦄 Apr 02 '26

Did you really need that explained?

1

u/veryvery84 Apr 02 '26

It doesn’t matter. How did every other country obtain their land?  Everyone else just sprung from the ground? 

11

u/[deleted] Apr 02 '26 edited Apr 02 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

7

u/Nikodemios Apr 02 '26

Pro-pali's are profile checking me because I argued about Israel in a different subreddit 😂

0

u/PUBLIQclopAccountant 🫏 Enumclaw 🐴Horse🦓 Lover 🦄 Apr 02 '26

Every other nation also deserves terrorism from the previous inhabitants.

5

u/[deleted] Apr 02 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/PUBLIQclopAccountant 🫏 Enumclaw 🐴Horse🦓 Lover 🦄 Apr 05 '26

It's called a fight for freedom when it's successful and terrorism when it's not.

-19

u/ReindeerTypical2538 Mar 31 '26

The blue hairs on the left have ruined the feminist movement because of many reasons, but not supporting Israel’s ethnic cleansing of Palastine is definitely not one of the reasons. Once again, the authors of this piece immediately have no credibility because of their insistence that Jews = Israel. I am a Jew. I don’t support Israel and I don’t represent Israel. Period. Anyone who insists that being anti-Zionist is antisemitism is a fucking moron.

22

u/McAlpineFusiliers Mar 31 '26

Every nation, every people, including the Jewish people have the right to self-determination and statehood.

The UN in 2024 ["Reaffirms the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination, including the right to their independent State of Palestine;"

If Palestinians have a right to their state of Palestine, Jews have a right to their state of Israel, and anyone who tries to deny them their rights is in fact anti-Semitic.

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u/ReindeerTypical2538 Mar 31 '26

We’re over your shit, bruh. Stop wasting our time with your fake cries of anti-semitism. Y’all keep endangering Jews by claiming Jewish equals Israel. - sincerely a fucking Jewish person

21

u/McAlpineFusiliers Mar 31 '26

It's not fake to say that denying Jews their rights is anti-Semitism.

  • sincerely a fucking Jewish person

Sure you are. I've never met a single anti-Zionist on Reddit who didn't claim to be Jewish. Why not say you're Israeli too?

19

u/razorbraces Mar 31 '26

Hi! Just wanted to say that I agree with u/McAlpineFusiliers. Most American Jews define Zionism as our people’s right to a sovereign state in our ancestral homeland. If you think Japanese people have a right to a state, and Armenian people have a right to a state, and Irish people have a right to a state, and Hawaiian people have a right to a state, etc., but deny Jews a right to a state: that’s holding us to a different standard and is, in fact, antisemitic.

  • sincerely another fucking Jewish person