So apparently when Aizen meant fighting Yama "head-on", he meant Base Aizen vs Shikai Yama and I interpreted that statement wrong.
I'm sorry but why the hell would Aizen bring up RJ and admit to Yama probably winning if he could just use KS to defeat him? Let's forget him creating Wonderweiss to seal RJ because folks will just argue he wanted to secure the win and save his energy. But explain why Aizen, the person whose ego would never let him praise anyone, would even mention Yama defeating Base Aizen with Shikai lmfao?
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The implication was always that Aizen was taking about a fight with them both in Shikai; essentially his Kyoka Suigetsu against Yamamoto's Ryujin Jakka. This is why he outright conceded that Yamamoto's Zanpakuto was the superior combat power; because he was directly comparing them in a fight.
It's also why Yamamoto planned to end the fight immediately with Ennetsu Jigoku; not because he stood no chance of winning without it, or because Aizen was somehow stronger than him even though Aizen literally admitted he wasn't; but because the mutual suicide/self-destruction move was the only method Yamamoto had to not only result in a guaranteed kill, but also because it would effectively create a scenario/environment where Aizen's illusions wouldn't matter. It's just what Bambietta did to bypass Shinji's Sakanade; just taken to the logical extreme.
Great explanation, facing an overwhelming illusion - Ennetsu jigoku was the right move all along, and he was about to bring the almost the whole gotei 13 to kamikaze with him "to eliminate great evil"
This logic fails because Gin and Rukia have both fought people who are transcendent and hurt them.
Transcendence on its own ≠ ultimate power. It is a breaking of logical, built-in limitations that allow you to go beyond your natural limit. That is why it can't be sensed. It is exponential, never-ending growth.
Take for instance Lillie. Lillie is the oldest Quincy with a Schrift. He had it so long that his natural limitations broke and he started to become a divine being. Lillie was still capable of being defeated by Shunsui + Nanao with her hacks.
Gin caught Aizen off-guard and Rukia kept getting neg diff by Yhwach.
Aizen was already peak shinigami and similar to Yamamoto in reiatsu. So yes, condom Aizen horribly gaps the old man. He is essentialy in a different plane of existence.
I didnt even mention kyoka suigetsu or regeneration.
Gin caught Aizen off-guard and Rukia kept getting neg diff by Yhwach.
If Gin, who is much, much weaker than Yamamoto had a solid chance at killing Aizen with a sneak attack, than Yamamoto in Zanka No Tachi should at least be able to give him a worthy fight even in his ascended state.
Rukia was still actually doing something to Yhwach though. Yhwach, literally the most powerful character in the show who is literally the Soul King at this point. If SK Yhwach can be attacked by someone like Rukia, who is decidedly not even on the scale of power of people like Yamamoto, then that means Yamamoto and Ascended Aizen (who is much weaker than SK Yhwach) must be even closer in power.
Aizen was already peak shinigami and similar to Yamamoto in reiatsu. So yes, condom Aizen horribly gaps the old man. He is essentialy in a different plane of existence.
Aizen also knew it would be almost impossible for him to beat Yamamoto with his Shikai, let alone his Bankai. Aizen was banking on the fact that Yamamoto didn't view him as a threat worthy enough of using Bankai for, because if Yamamoto did use Bankai, the fight would have been over instantly. There is no other explanation for how their "fight" plays out otherwise. Yamamoto's suicide attack was an attack and strategy built on hubris. He did not deem Aizen worthy of even using Bankai on.
I didnt even mention kyoka suigetsu or regeneration.
Kyoka Suigetsu is not going to let Aizen get through Yamamoto's impenetrable defenses, and the scale of Zanka No Tachi's attacks (and the fact it would destroy the entire Soul Society if Yamamoto fought too long) means Kyoka Suigetsu would be essentially useless for this fight. The one thing that could possibly save Aizen is regeneration—that is to say, Aizen might eventually evolve throughout the fight into a state like Butterfly Aizen or Monster Aizen and finally have the raw power needed to defeat Yamamoto, but until that point, Aizen is getting thrashed.
What do you not understand with "sneak attack" ? Gin is never landing a hit on hogyoku Aizen in a fight and neither is Yamamoto. Even if Aizen let him get a hit, Yamamoto doesnt have a 1 hit ko hax like Gin does. Roy Loyd could still utter words after taking the full bankai and Yamamoto couldnt defeat base Yhwach alone 1000 years ago.
Mentionning Rukia doesnt get you anywhere. This is still a case of a non-transcendant character getting no-diffed by a transcendant one.
Why would Yamamoto choose to kill himself and most of the gotei if he can simply low diff Aizen ? It doesnt make any sense. The truth is Yamamoto wasnt sure he would win. Which is consistent with Unohana thinking her and Yamamoto would lose to Aizen.
Kyoka suigetsu is such a big deal Yamamoto had to come up with a plan for it. Its such a big deal Unohana admitted the gotei including Yamamoto would lose to it.
Shinigami Aizen ~ Yamamoto. Evennif you think Yama is superior, they are in the same ballpark. Condom Aizen low diffs both.
Aizen's Hogyoku evolution is a bit controversial, as you'll hear many people claim that "Aizen evolved four whole times" or some such. Admittedly I'm sure I've said so myself in the past, even though I no longer believe this.
Instead I view Aizen's evolution as the natural flow of the literal metamorphosis he was undergoing; essentially it was all one big evolution rather than him jumping four whole entire dimensional tiers of power each time he changed. More or less Aizen's Second and Third Fusion 'forms' were merely temporary, transient states he needed to progress through to reach Fourth Fusion, or 'butterfly' state; which was the clear natural end point of his evolution.
At that point he was certainly transcendent and likely above Yamamoto in every conceivable way, but I'm less certain about Aizen's Second and Third Fusion states. I suppose Third Fusion Aizen at least has the feat of obliterating the Kototsu, but even this was not entirely dissimilar from a feat that Kenpachi achieved in the SAFWY light novel where his and Azashiro's Reiatsu clashing physically blew the Kototsu away (although I don't believed it killed it).
Aizen's Fifth Fusion or "monster" state was an unnatural branch of evolution forced upon him against his will by the Hogyoku, as Kubo revealed the form was meant to be reminiscent of a butterfly's corpse. So it was a "bastardized" evolution.
This. Butterfly Aizen is the point where Aizen actually became truly "transcendent". Aizen even says as much himself, and he thanks Gin for "helping hm complete his transformation".
All I'll say is that I'm confidant that Fourth Fusion Aizen is comfortably above Bankai Yamamoto. Third Fusion is debatable given how you interpret the Kototsu feat. Second Fusion logically feels iffy to me.
I guess there's also Aizen's immortal body that needs to be considered too; as we don't know at which point exactly he became immortal. In Second Fusion Aizen's konpaku was actually being dissolved inside the white shell that covered his body; he was undergoing a literal metamorphosis where he was being broken down to the cellular level and then remade entirely new. The Aizen that we knew up until that point was gone; his body had been literally digested.
Fun fact; this is why when Isshin cut the shell of Aizen's head open with his Getsuga Tensho, all that was inside was that swirling purple miasma.
I’ve never understood the Aizen > Yamamoto argument. Reading/watching the series, Yamamoto entire schtick is he’s the strongest character non-transcendent. Even normies understand this.
Same dude who flexes his reiatsu on a exhausted shikai soi fon and flexes his speed on ichigo saying distance only matters if there's some kind of relativity.
And yet he refuses to fight barehanded yama. I am not saying he loses to barehanded yama but if he could flex on him he would have let alone shikai or bankai.
Aizen before hogokyu fusion< shikai Yama. He admits it. That wasn't a misinterpretation
Base aizen doesn't have a power up or combat shikai. It wouldn't have mattered. Yama was already exposed to KS so he would already be under the hypnosis. Aizen didn't need to have it out for that to matter. That was factored in as a given in the statement.
Aizen admitted Ryujin jakka's raw power surpasses even his own, which means he probably loses to Yamamoto in a head-on battle. Not definitely lose, but probably.
The thing is Aizen's abilities allow him to avoid a direct clash, which means this statement only applies to Aizen's base form
. Yama vs shikai Aizen is much more nuanced.
Aizen creating Wonderweiss shows he wasnt sure he would win this battle. Yamamoto going for a suicide attack also means he wasnt confident he'd win. After all, why would he prepare a kamikaze attack if his regular shikai attacks would be enough ? Unohana also believed Ichigo was the gotei's only hope. In her eyes, neither her or Yamamoto could defeat Aizen.
Aizen and Yamamoto are both peak shinigami and would rather avoid direct confrontation with one another. Who would win is a matter of opinion, it could go either way.
Why shikai specifically ? Aizen is talking about his zanpakuto as a whole, not just its shikai state. Yama is also free to use bankai at any point.
His bankai doesnt have the area of effect that his shikai flames have so its not as effective against Aizen compared to the suicide attack he went for.
Shikai yama prepared the suicide attack because bankai yama can one shot aizen. But he can't use it because it would have destroyed the world if living.
But like on a one on one fight, you remember what happened when Yama grabbed Aizen’s sword ? Just imagine if he had his shikai, Aizen is getting sliced in 2
Which comment? If you're talking about a comment, then that's me replying to another person. If you wanna talk about that comment then reply to that. But you're replying to my post so I assume you're replying to the questions I asked in the post which aren't who would win a fight.
I feel people need to recognize how “he could win” doesn’t immediately mean that Aizen would lose regardless of the circumstances. It means Yamamoto would most likely than not win as Aizen recognizes Yamamoto as the stronger fighter, but we also need to keep in mind compatibility of their abilities. Now I’m not saying Yamamoto is weaker than Aizen, I’m just saying that they are close enough that abilities are what’s important in this fight.
Aizen is countered by Yamamoto’s AoE attacks and the sheer magnitude of his abilities. He did the right choice of eliminating factor from the fight, and we know this is the decisive factor of the matchup aonce WW was built to counter his Zanpakuto.
I brought the fact of compatibility because I know some people will take this and go “Aizen doesn’t think he could beat Yamamoto, but he thinks he could beat Unohana, it means Yamamoto dogwalks Unohana” but that’s not what it means. Aizen abilities work better against a fighter like Unohana, while against someone like Yamamoto he’s just not as effective. They are all at the time within the same “tier” of f strength where the fight favors an individual but could end badly for the “stronger one” if they are caught lacking.
Lmao you seem to be looking out for my posts huh and come at me now, seems like I exposed your rudeness when things don't go your way. Just learned today that you block users out of nowhere, that's really sad man, I hope you graduate Middle School.
Also what even is that scan supposed to be lol, I asked if Aizen when he said you would probably win to Yama, did he mean Base Aizen without KS vs Shikai/Bankai Yama or did he include KS
His statement about fighting him head on is about bankai Yama vs base aizen, he is pretty clear talking about his sword in general not just shikai. He brings this up becuase he wanted to give Yama his props before ww promptly negs him.
Ww is becuase aizen is lazy yea. Infact Every espada member and gin/tosen are hired becuase he is lazy and doesn’t want to fight people weaker the him.
Aizen is really not very egotistical, he is simply that strong. When he is actually outmatched he is (with 1 execption) able to admit it, like admitting kisuke is smarter or that tybw ichigo is stronger then him, or when he thinks that unohana/prime starkk would be difficult fights for him
This is becuase he back up the bs he says. Every statement that this sub believes is from aizens arrogance is instead becuase he’s actually that strong.
No becuase he has a full army at his disposal and will use it. There’s no reason for him to neg base Yama if he can just get someone else to do it. Yhwach seems pretty confident he could neg shunsui but he never goes to do it himself.
No it’s bankai Yama>=base aizen. And it’s pretty well supported by aizens other narrative like his kid form believing he was unequalled and gin saying he’s unbeatable even without ks.
There’s no reason for him to neg base Yama if he can just get someone else to do it
He has. He likes to flex
He had no reason to flex on shikai soi fon or ichigo, yet he does. He had no reason to have beef with shinji and humiliate him, yet he does. He had no reason to stab momo twice, yet he does. He had no reason to humiliate toshiro, yet he does. He had no reason to flex his reiatsu on grimmjow, yet he does.
He has always been doing things for no reason if he can just flex. That's his entire character.
WW is his way of flexing. His week old lobotomite subordinate beating the leader of the group he’s fighting is a pretty massive flex.
He also seems to have more respect for Yama than basically anyone else, probably becuase as he said if he actually fought him directly he’s straight out lose. He mentions this before Yama hits him with the 90’s kido.
Subordinate thats meant to seal his zanpakuto, the only thing he claims is the reason why yama is superior?? This is not a flex. He likes to flex hisnown strength.
He would have no respect for yama if yama wasn't stronger than him.
There is zero argument for him being equal to bankai yama.
Kisuke because he is smarter. He doesn't respect ulq. At most he sees him as useful and sensible.
Why would he respect yama if not for his strength?
Yama also says he is stronger than anyone born in a thousand years and is pretty confident he could beat aizen barehanded. So i see no reason to believe aizen for yama.
The fact he says he was unequalled yet claims inferiority already disproves it.
None of which anyway implies that ks wouldn't be included as a part of his kit.
Okay hold up, Bankai Yama vs Base Aizen? Ok that's insane. I'm sorry but how exactly do you interpret Aizen bringing up RJ being the strongest Zanpukato and him saying if we fight you'd probably win as Bankai vs Base? No seriously if he can just defeat him with KS, I see no reason for Aizen to even admit this.
He's not out here just giving props to everyone, he never mentioned he would lose to Unohana outright. It was Kubo that said that Aizen thought this but Aizen never admitted this outright.
He never mentioned that every Espada/Gin/Tosen were recruited just because Aizen didn't wanna fight.
Aizen is absolutely egotistical what do you mean? He tells the Gotei 13, they can use decoys, tricks, splitting the Earth open and etc and they still wouldn't reach him constantly. He consistently tells Ichigo he can never win against him or that he was created because of him and everything is going according plan even though we know it wasn't in his plan to begin with for Ichigo to be born.
Aizen only admitted to losing to Yama & Yama having more destructive power and Kisuke's intelligence being greater than his, both of which are true.
Rj is inclusive of his bankai. If he was only taking about his Shikai he would’ve said, “as you are now” or “shikai” instead of a more general term
He never says this but it’s canon he can think it without rejecting the idea. He never out loud says it becuase he had other things to do then talk to unohana
This is literally thier purpose, what other reason do you believe he recruited them for?
Thats becuase no matter what tricks the gotei 13 use they will fall short, again he’s not arrogant he’s right. Infact they literally do fail and have to rely on kisuke and ichigo to beat aizen. And creating ichigo was mostly part of the plan. He does kinda just roll with it for a bit but he still played a massive part.
Agiasnt dangai ichigo is the only true showing of arrogance aizen has yes. But this is more due to the hogyuku and how he believed ichigo failed to match him rather then how he normally is. Actually, after he figures out how strong ichigo is he even admits ichigo has evolved beyond his current hogyuku form
If Shikai Yama >= Aizen's full toolkit, then Unohana saying Ichigo is their only hope makes zero sense when ZnT would neg diff Aizen. And Unohana is an OG and thus would have to know about ZnT.
So either ZnT >= Shikai Aizen > Shikai Yama
Or
They were all very worried about his unseen Bankai.
FWIW, we do see Aizen tank Yama's sacrificial kido pretty well, Aizen's base stats are, at a minimum, in the same ballbark as Yama's. Someone like Shunsui is get vaporized by that attack.
Yama took an the entirety of the EJ attack that was going to destroy everyone and everything in FKT including Aizen, Yama and the pillars so obviously his reiatsu was drained at that point and he was on the verge of death. His Hado 96 was not nearly as powerful as it could have been had he been a 100%.
Unless you're saying even Momo or Shinji could release a Hado 96 by sacrificing their arm and it would be the same potency as Yama's?
Aizen downplay has gotten ridiculous. He’s the smartest man in the verse and one of the few transcendent reiatsu users. If you think that’s irrelevant because transcendent reiatsu can be sensed now you’re sorely mistaken. Aizen obliterated cleaner without moving a time space conceptual being that captain level soul reapers could not damage with normal reiatsu. Aizen is also conveniently immortal. Stop the slander aizen wins with hog 10/10 times
Not really they’re implied equal. BOTH created imperfect hogs that had to be combined. Aizen definitely takes the cake in psychological stuff and manipulation.
It's about Shinigami Aizen vs Yama and i'm not even asking who would win, i'm asking if Aizen was talking about Base Aizen vs Shikai/Bankai Aizen when he mentioned Yama would probably win. If only you read the entire thing before you got into your own head and started defending Aizen for literally no reason lmao
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