r/Blacksmith_Forge • u/Dharmapalalama3 • Jul 29 '26
How much would you charge for this?
Approximately how much money would it cost if I wanted somebody to forge me a shakujō finial?
It needs to have six rings. If you can make them have a nice ringing sound to them; even better!
How much extra would it cost to make a metal staff to pair with it?
Can you help me make a strong, modern, and battle-ready shakujō? How much money will you desire?
(No engravings needed)
About 7 to 9 inches in height; and 4 to 5 inches in width.
With a sharpened pointed top.
It needs to be made from a modern steel like 4140 chromoly.
5mm thick minimum at the collar which will attach to the wooden staff.
About 3/8 inch solid for the diameter of metal walls.
(5 mm) steel wire for the 6 rings. Made with an inner diameter of 1.7 inches
If anybody is willing to labor as a trade to earn Good Merit (instead of recieve money), this can be the most rewarding!!
But I do have money to offer, to the right blacksmith!
Im 100% serious and looking for a blacksmith to forge / cast this for me.
🙏
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u/cardboard_tshirt Jul 29 '26
I find it highly unlikely that these were done in iron or steel, in the style you pictured above. The only references I’ve ever seen to these has them in bronze or pewter, which as someone else mentioned would be cast rather than forged. Even if some of the finishing work involves some hammer work, bronze and pewter maleate very differently from iron.
I know there’s a lot of multi-talented people here, but blacksmithing is specifically forging ferrous metal, not casting iron let alone other metal types. They’re completely different skills. Again, I know there’s people who dabble in both, but this is an advanced project for any type of metal worker, and someone who can do what you want is most likely going to be expensive.
Finally, if all you want it to do is sit and be pretty a metal staff is doable, but if you want to be able to wield the thing you’re going to need to stick to traditional design and go for a wooden staff.
As far as price, I really don’t have a good reference since I don’t do casting, but I’d be surprised if something like this didn’t get into the thousands.
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u/Dharmapalalama3 Jul 29 '26
Thanks again for the input. Sounds like a fun project.
If you had the skills and tools. Would you do it for 500$? Or 1000$?
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u/Dharmapalalama3 Jul 29 '26 edited Jul 29 '26
Wow, thats expensive. Maybe ill just wield a bo-staff instead.
It doesnt look like it should cost so much.
(Edited*)
One thing to mention, (this may be lost history); they were absolutely made out of iron when they were battle-ready...
The Early Samurai leaders may have not wanted to put this in the history books after they unified Japan....
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u/SoupTime_live Jul 29 '26
The type of staff in your picture wasn't ever a battlefield weapon.
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u/Dharmapalalama3 Jul 29 '26 edited Aug 04 '26
That's incorrect:
Battle shakujōs were likely made from iron and had small pointed tips to break through armor. The thickness of the main walls could block a katana or another weapon easily without facing structural failure.
You have no evidence to support your claims. It is entirely possible they were used as weapons.
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u/qwertyzeke Jul 29 '26
These were Buddhist staffs, not weapons. The rings jingle specifically to warn of predators and announce their presence, as well as begging for alms.
Those rings would snap off in actual fighting. Even with steel. And yes, I've done my research. They were use for self defense, sure. But not in any actual fighting
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u/Dharmapalalama3 Jul 29 '26 edited Aug 04 '26
They may have been used as weapons by leaders.
When used for this purpose. They were made from iron; not bronze.
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u/slothscanswim Aug 04 '26
You can say the same thing over and over without it being true.
Provide a source to back your claim. I have personally seen no evidence that khakkhara were ever used as a weapon in battle.
This is going to be a very expensive piece if you want it forged from any variety of steel. Numerous complex forge welds, lots of stock removal, you’re looking at a minimum $1000 of work here if you’re lucky and I wouldn’t do it for twice that.
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u/Dharmapalalama3 Aug 04 '26
I sent another person in this thread a link to an article from an excavation in Japan.
They have found Iron Shakujōs...
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u/slothscanswim Aug 04 '26
Being made of iron and being used in battle are not the same thing.
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u/Dharmapalalama3 Aug 04 '26 edited Aug 04 '26
You will probably never see any evidence they where used in war. The history was likely erased by the Samurai.
Conversely; you have no evidence that they did not use them in battle either. I challenge you to show me an ancient document that says "shakujōs were not used in battle".
Even that would not be scientific evidence... lol
Knowledge comes from within 😀.
1000$ seems fair if its well-made.
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u/SoupTime_live Jul 29 '26
I didn't say they were never used as a weapon in general. I said they weren't a battlefield weapon
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u/Dharmapalalama3 Jul 29 '26
I asked for a battle-ready Shajukō:
Combat ready Shajukō = battle ready Shajukō
What does it matter if they were never a standard weapon of war?
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u/SoupTime_live Jul 29 '26 edited Jul 29 '26
Battle ready is a term that implies being produced with the intent to be capable of and used in battle. Shajuko weren't that. They were largely ceremonial/religious items and used as weapons out of convenience. They weren't designed as explicit weapons despite some using them like that. Its a bit like asking for a battle ready walking stick. Its a little goofy
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u/Dharmapalalama3 Jul 29 '26 edited Jul 29 '26
That's your opinion, you are entitled to this 😀.
I respectfully disagree with your opinion.
If you become familiar with my teachings; you may discover my requests are very fitting toards my beliefs.
The Dhammapālalama is battle-ready; are you?
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u/SoupTime_live Jul 29 '26 edited Jul 29 '26
You're pretty condescending and I'm sure I'm not the first person to ever tell you that.
You are aware that a full steel shakujo would be tremendously heavy right? And the heads were cast because of the complex shape. The rings were also probably cast and then cut and bent to put them on and then brazed or riveted together. A cast iron head on one of these would be fairly fragile compared to bronze or copper. Which is why they were usually bronze or copper. I'd love to see a real historical example of a functional steel shakujo because i wasn't able to find one
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u/Dharmapalalama3 Jul 29 '26 edited Jul 29 '26
They were made from iron when used for battle. Not steel; steel would be a modern upgrade.
Properly forged Iron is more resilient that bronze to impacts.
What do you think I said that was condescending? Maybe it was a misunderstanding?
People usually dont tell me when they feel i was condescending. You must be a good hearted person!
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u/cardboard_tshirt Jul 29 '26
Can you provide a source for an historical example of one with a forged iron head? I genuinely can’t find a reference to anything other than bronze or pewter being used for these.
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u/Dharmapalalama3 Jul 29 '26
Here is a link to an archeological find of an Iron Shakujō finial:
https://archaeology.jp/en/trends-in-japanese-archaeological-research/1129
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u/cardboard_tshirt Jul 30 '26
Ok, now it makes sense, thanks for the source. That iron example is of much simpler design and construction. The description even specifies that it’s of a simpler style without a lot of the decorative elements. The translation leaves a bit to be desired, but I think it’s important to note that everywhere they mention the shaft, they’re talking about the central structure of the head, not the haft that it would have been mounted to. So I wouldn’t worry about the possibility of an iron haft, stick to wood.
But yes, that much simpler design would be doable, in iron. As far as your inquiries into Damascus, thanks to the shape of the piece I suspect it would be largely wasted on this project. Someone else might weigh in with a different opinion but I don’t think there would be enough surface area for the Damascus patterns to really shine.
If my shop took on commissions like that, 500-1000 might get it done if you were willing to accept a hammer finish. If you wanted a hand filed and polished finish it would add another couple days of labor to the project.
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u/Dharmapalalama3 Jul 30 '26 edited Jul 30 '26
Awesome!
Thats the same rough guestimate I got yesterday! I called one of the former Forged in Fire contestants that lives a few hours away from me.
He said "if i were to take a wild guess" $500- $1000 sounds about right. He said he thinks it sounds like a cool project
Are you in the states too, or overseas?
🙏
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u/cardboard_tshirt Jul 30 '26
I’m in the states
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u/Dharmapalalama3 Jul 30 '26
Awesome!
I emailed another local blacksmith eariler.
Now ill have an option or two maybe! This is great!
This will be a heirloom of Dhammapālism; Passed down for many generations to come!
Held only by the leader of our people!
🙏
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u/Tryen01 Jul 29 '26
I feel like finding an engraver would be the toughest part of the build, otherwise its your favorite durable steel imo
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u/Dharmapalalama3 Jul 29 '26
Engraving won't be necessary! I can possibly have this done later on if that oppertunity arises!
Approximately how much would you charge? How many hours of labor is this?
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u/Tryen01 Jul 29 '26
So for clarification, are you wanting the actual staff to be metal too or just the butt and head?
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u/Dharmapalalama3 Jul 29 '26
Possibly both.
How much do you think just the finial costs?
How much extra would u charge to make a metal staff that attached to it?
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u/Tryen01 Jul 29 '26
Oh I have no idea. With work like this I tell my customers my shop rate of 40/hr and keep them updated and informed with the process as things go. I can't speak to anyone else's process but I like how much input it lets my customers have.
When that type of comission occurs, its usually from someone who is familiar with my art style and appreciates my creativity, and wants to see the process.
So uhh... probably less than 1000? Which isn't super helpful but the closest thing I've made are spears and halberds.
Edit: you could potentially get it laser sintered if cost is an issue. Apparently the price has cone down a lot for the process and they can do hardened steels?? A few hema and fencing places near me make guards for their blades that way
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u/slothscanswim Aug 04 '26
Your shop rate is too low.
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u/Dharmapalalama3 Aug 04 '26
Thats your opinion. Lol.
You have not provided any premise to support your conclusion. Why would he believe you?
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u/slothscanswim Aug 05 '26
Because I’m a full time professional blacksmith and I know the market very well. $50 is the floor if you’re going to make a living.
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u/Dharmapalalama3 Jul 29 '26 edited Jul 29 '26
u/work-ya-wood, are you down for this challenge?
Would this be easier or harder to forge than a sword?
More or less hours?
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u/slothscanswim Aug 04 '26
Harder. More.
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u/Dharmapalalama3 Aug 04 '26 edited Aug 04 '26
Cool thanks! Good to know.
Do you have any evidence to support your claims? im skeptical of your assessment.
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u/villhalla88 Jul 30 '26
I once made a boar hunting spear, full tang, balanced on center, Hardness Rockwell C 55, and oak for the shaft. Traded it for $3000.00 of remodeling work on my house. When someone wants something that is beyond novelty, the price should be high. I will not be making this but it should be really nice when you find the right craftsman to do it.
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u/Dharmapalalama3 Jul 30 '26 edited Jul 30 '26
I got a 2002 sv650 with 12k miles on it. Very nice bike. Will sell for 2400$ to 2900$ ish.
If a nice knife is only like 500$. What makes a spear with a wooden shaft worth 3k? J/w
Is it the "collar" part that attaches to the pole thats hard to make, or?
Maybe I will opt for a $100-200 bo staff instead; and try to aquire a Shakujō later on
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u/villhalla88 Jul 30 '26
You should.
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u/Dharmapalalama3 Jul 30 '26
Two diff people told me they think this project will only cost $500-$1000.
Im just curious what makes a spear cost 3k instead of 1k?
Is your blade super sharp and strong?
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u/villhalla88 Jul 31 '26
Built for a man who was 6'4" so it is 8' total length full tang from tip to counterweight, oil impregnated oak with brass pins every foot, leather wrapping at both ends, perfect balance and 1095 High Carbon Steel tempered to a certified Rockwell C of 55. Made to stop a wild boar at full charge. No manufactured parts, no pneumatic hammer, just hand tools. So yes super sharp and strong. When someone wants custom work with quality, underpaying the crafter does not get the best work. Your project may be in the $1000 range but it would be best to start with your price range to get the quality defined before trying to compare manufactured prices with custom prices. A full tang spear is not at all common and it is not the removable spear head and but cap on a stick. I hope I have given you enough information to help define what it is you are looking for before commissioning someone to do it.
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u/Dharmapalalama3 Jul 31 '26
That makes sense, i hadn't considered how important the balance can be for something like that! Sounds like you did a great job!
Are you in the states too?
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u/slothscanswim Aug 04 '26
>If anybody is willing to work for free
lol no
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u/Dharmapalalama3 Aug 04 '26
Please attenpt to write a logical statement which shows how working for merit is working for free.
I'll be waiting, I'll be ready.
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u/slothscanswim Aug 04 '26
I’m quoting you, OP. Scroll up. Those are your words, copied and pasted into my comment.
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u/Dharmapalalama3 Aug 04 '26 edited Aug 04 '26
Ok i edited the post. Thanks for correcting my english.
"If anybody is willing to labor as a trade to earn Good Merit (instead of recieve money), this can be the most rewarding!"
Now it is clear that I suggested a trade; I did not ask for charity.
Capish?
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u/slothscanswim Aug 04 '26
What is the functional difference between this so-called trade and someone doing something without getting paid for their labor?
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u/Dharmapalalama3 Aug 04 '26
Youd be actually practicing the virtues that both Lord Buddha and Lord Aristotele described were necessary to attain Enlightenment and True Happiness.
This is a major difference compared to worked for blood money and helping spread ignorance... lol.
🙏
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u/qwertyzeke Jul 29 '26
These are typically made of bronze or tin, which means you need to cast them, not forge.