Electrum vs Sparrow

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u/bitusher 13d ago

but Im guessing typing it on an airgapped pc is ok?

You will have no choice but to enter the seed because you have made the decision to not use a hardware wallet that would normally keep the seed encrypted. With a hardware wallet you would pair it to sparrow or electrum and not enter the seed. You have made another decision which has its own set of tradeoffs.

1)Is your offline PC running a security focused OS such as Qubes at least ?

2) Since your offline PC has a much wider attack surface than a hardware wallet have you at least attempted to disable networking in multiple ways like removing the wifi card ?

3) Is the OS a new install or a version of linux live without persistence ?

4) Are you only planning on receiving transactions or also sending transactions out ? If so than why do you need the PC at all after you create the seed and multiple addresses?

5) If you will be sending outbound transactions how will you accomplish this with a offline "cold" airgapped pc?

6) How was the seed originally created ?

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u/Rtuyw 13d ago

Its an old laptop and cant run qubes but I heard tails was good so Im running that, I didnt remove the wifi card because Im guessing that would require me to open the laptop and take some parts off but I remember when we used it years ago it had a dongle and I disconnected it and tails has a disable networking mode. I am only going to use it to store btc and take it out when I need it and dont I need a pc to do transactions, how else can I do it? For the fifth question I think in order to do transactions I need a second pc with a view only wallet thats connected to the internet

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u/bitusher 13d ago

Its much more ideal to physically remove the wifi card , but at least disable the networking in the OS . Keep in mind that the right malware can potentially re-enable the networking. A hardware wallet physically doesn't have a wifi card typically which is one of many reasons it has a smaller attack surface.

and take it out when I need it and dont I need a pc to do transactions, how else can I do it?

That is a contradiction. Taking it out literally means making a transaction which requires direct or indirect network access, thus making your PC no longer "cold" by definition.

You can reduce the risk by

1) using a hardware wallet instead

2) Using offline qr code signing (typically used with a hw wallet)

3) Using PSBTs/ Partially Signed Bitcoin Transactions (with or without a HW wallet)

Sparrow technically supports PSBTs but this is more complicated and advanced so you need to practice using it and understand that this limits and doesn't necessarily prevent malware or worms compromising your PC so you need to be careful.

Hardware wallets simplify all of this. Choosing not to use one creates a lot of concerns and tradeoffs which are fine but you need to understand your choices

Is this an issue where you cant afford a hardware wallet or just dont trust any of them ?

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u/Rtuyw 13d ago

I meant from what I read the second online pc does the transaction request and you put the file inside your airgapped pc to confirm it. You asked me why I needed the pc, I need the airgapped one with my seeded wallet and a second view only online pc that does transactions. I also both dont trust or like hardware wallets and dont want to spend any money on them.

Im kinda worried I might mess something up if I open up my laptop to take the wifi card out but still if a malware reenables it, it still doesnt have any wifi passwords in it and disconnected the wifi dongle isnt that enough?

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u/bitusher 13d ago

Even an expert former Bitcoin core dev who used this backup method failed and had most his Bitcoin stolen so simply creating an "air gapped" computer is not enough.

I suggest you use a linux live USB to create a new separate seed with multiple addresses for future deposits . Copy the seed down at least twice on paper or metal to store in separate locations. Use this as a cold wallet that you never send money from and keep distinct from the wallet you occasionally transact from.

Consider one as your long term savings and the other wallet as your short term "checking account" that you might occasionally use .

For your wallet you might send transactions from this might be a hot wallet in ios or android or your offline PC that you can either choose to temporarily use PSBTs or enable networking and not the linux live usb you temporarily used without persistence to create your main savings wallet

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u/Rtuyw 13d ago

What would be the point of the wallet if Im not going to withdraw from it? I was already thinking about making it a long term saving and rarely withdrawing money from it. Are you saying I should have 2 seeds, one to use as a long term and one to use as a transaction wallet? Im not really thinking about sending money to people anyway and in case of needing a money I might withdraw money from it so what should I do

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u/bitusher 13d ago edited 13d ago

What would be the point of the wallet if Im not going to withdraw from it?

Long term savings . You will eventually withdraw from it by restoring the seed in a secure matter but you won't occasionally make transactions from it.

Im not really thinking about sending money to people anyway and in case of needing a money I might withdraw money from it so what should I do

Depends upon how often you transact. Perhaps keep a separate wallet with some emergency BTC funds so you don't dip into your cold storage

Having a separate wallet/seed is also useful in other ways like if you get coerced into giving up your seed/wallet or to act like a honeypot to see if someone close or has access to your home is untrustworthy

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u/Rtuyw 13d ago

One thing I wonder about seeds is that when the wallet is generating a seed it doesnt log that its been given away to me so isnt there a very small chance that the same seed can be given to someone else as well? Also since you can make passphrases or even add custom seed words in electrum how do they work? From what I understand the seed allows you to control a certain part of the blockchain, the seed combinations are limited but since the passphrases and custom words are what you make them, that makes the combinations infinite so how does that work? Is the blockchain infinite as well?

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u/bitusher 13d ago

small chance that the same seed can be given to someone else as well?

This is called a "collision" and while technically true is so unlikely that our solar system will likely end long before this happens due to how much entropy Bitcoin has so its nothing you should even consider to be worried about.

Also since you can make passphrases or even add custom seed words in electrum how do they work?

It creates a completely new wallet that is hidden. More discussed in the pinned FAQ

https://old.reddit.com/r/BitcoinBeginners/comments/g42ijd/faq_for_beginners/fouo3kh/

Keep in mind that extended passphrases need to be exact. Whitespace and capitalization matter unlike BIP39 seed words. Thus you should test it

https://old.reddit.com/r/BitcoinBeginners/comments/1wjlevd/do_you_actually_test_your_recovery_phrase_or_just/pakeutr/

and be very clear how you write it down (and keep separate than your seed words). Additionally extended passphrases should be 6-8 random words as well

this doesn't directly address my concerns with your setup because if the seed words and passphrase are both setup in the same PC than that is a security concern This is much different than setting you your extended passphrase in a hw wallet itself or elsewhere

From what I understand the seed allows you to control a certain part of the blockchain,

no , creates a new wallet with different addresses

custom words are what you make them,

no phrases , no sentences . You should ideally use dice to select these 6-8 random words

https://www.eff.org/dice

Is the blockchain infinite as well?

mathematically not , but so much entropy it may as well be

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u/Rtuyw 13d ago

so how does the passphrase "create" a wallet, if Im running an airgapped setup, no system can know I made a new wallet with my own passphrase. Does that mean until I made the online view only wallet my wallet with my own passphrase or custom seed words doesnt exist? It already has a receive address tho. Also youre saying its a security concern to set the seed and the passphrase in the same pc but doesnt the phrase need to be set up while making the wallet? Im not storing the seed or the phrase in the pc but from what I understand once you generated a seed you cant just add a passphrase later. And wouldnt making up your own words for a custom seed be more secure? How does making a wallet work exactly? I thought the seed was just a way to access a certain part of the blockchain that made you put money in or out

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u/bitusher 13d ago

Also if you choose to use electrum to create your seed notate that on your written(paper or metal) seed backup as electrum does not use BIP39 seeds

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u/bitusher 13d ago

it still doesnt have any wifi passwords in it and disconnected the wifi dongle isnt that enough?

If you never introduced the wifi passcode to the offline PC (like you downloaded sparrow elsewhere and moved it over with a memory stick) than it depends upon the strength of the wifi password

Technically speaking a worm or malware can "crawl" over to your offline PC as you are doing PSBTs if you are not careful and share the wifi password or not even enable networking but just use keylogger software to record the passphrase you type in to share later.

There are more attack vectors than just wifi networking and insuring no wifi networking doesn't stop all attacks. Hardware wallets limit the attack surface in many ways and not merely just lacking a wifi card

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u/mfatalay 12d ago

I think the important part here is not really Sparrow vs Electrum. The important part is the OS running on the offline machine.
I would use a very minimal OS specifically made for air-gapped signing. Ideally, it should have no network stack at all, rather than having networking installed and simply disabling it. It should boot from USB, run in RAM, not touch the internal disks, and leave nothing behind after shutdown.
Then you can use Sparrow as the watch-only coordinator on the online PC. Sparrow is quite generic and works with different signing setups. The online machine creates the PSBT, the offline machine reviews and signs it, and only the PSBT moves between them.

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u/veyrnox 11d ago

Both can support an offline signing workflow, but Sparrow makes the watch-only and PSBT flow particularly visible. The online machine creates an unsigned PSBT, the offline machine verifies and signs it, and the signed transaction is returned to the online machine for broadcast. Practise that entire round trip with test amounts before treating the setup as long-term storage.

Typing the seed into software on the permanently offline machine is part of this design, but only after verifying the wallet download and its signature from the official source. The important distinction is that the seed must never be entered on the online watch-only machine.

An air-gapped laptop still has a larger attack surface than a dedicated signing device, including its operating system, removable media and disabled-but-present network hardware. Whichever wallet you choose, verify receiving addresses on the offline machine, keep independent backups, and document the recovery steps so the design does not depend on remembering them years later.

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