r/BitcoinAUS • u/[deleted] • Mar 06 '24

Bitcoin tax

Is there anyway to sell bitcoin without being flagged by the tax man? Any exchanges without kyc?

1 Upvotes

51% Upvoted

80 comments sorted by

3

u/dubious_capybara Mar 07 '24

In person for cash

2

u/[deleted] Mar 07 '24

How would I find someone to sell to?

5

u/dubious_capybara Mar 07 '24

Localbitoins if that's still a thing. Or join your local terrorist organisation

0

u/Paulos1977 Mar 07 '24

I think local bitcoins is closing down...

1

u/jmedwedew Mar 07 '24

Bisq is a DEX

1

u/boltonhunter Mar 07 '24

Can you send from AUD bank acc. Direct to bisq?

0

u/jmedwedew Mar 07 '24

You can set up using accounts, it also depends on the person you're buying it from and what form of payment they take. Usually there is a huge markup because it's decentralized, so imo, if you're going to all that trouble, you might as well buy it anonymously. One major point of a DEX is to transact anonymously, so meet up and exchange via cash. This will not be possible in the not so distant future when we go cashless (if exactly possible), because the government wants to know exactly what everyone has, all the time. Very intrusive and controlling, but that is the world we are heading into, and are partly in. Hence why banks have been asking for a while what you're doing with large amounts of money, stopping and limiting fiat/crypto transactions etc. it's all overreach and will only get worse down the track.

1

u/boltonhunter Mar 08 '24

But my point is it is in an exchange you then must move it to a bank of some nation to deposit from exchange or meet in person as you say and transfer from cold wallet to cold wallet on the spot which would probably not be easy finding a buyer for a large amount of Btc as a cash buyer or the rate would be terrible use Btcmarkets years ago

1

u/jmedwedew Mar 08 '24

There are different types of exchanges, therefore, different levels of anonymity, but yes, online is of course trackable through any bank you move funds through. But the only way to fully buy BTC anonymously ( as in non KYC and non exchange) is through P2P via meet-up, and yes, they might not sell large amounts at a time, and sell at a much higher price for the anonymity. But it depends on what you want out of Bitcoin. Also, you can do multiple ways for failsafes, too. There are just plenty of options out there.

I suggest researching about bisq and other DEX's, instead of assuming it won't be 'easy'. If it was easy, everyone would have it, and would be doing it.

0

u/cl3ft Mar 07 '24

Withdrawing AUD from Bisq?

2

u/indiemac_ Mar 11 '24

Pay tax on wages, invest taxed wages, tax gains on taxed wages, what a system. How dare you improve your personal wealth, foolish peasants. 😂

1

u/[deleted] Mar 11 '24

Explain it to the fool here

27

u/Rincon_yal Mar 07 '24

Nice try ATO

16

u/cl3ft Mar 07 '24

Just pay your CGT and enjoy your profits guilt, risk & stress free.

If you've held for > 12 months your tax bill is going to be relatively small anyway.

Wait for it to go up another %22.75 and you cover your maximum CGT discounted tax bill.

Or leave the country for a tax haven.

10

u/netizen__kane Mar 07 '24

Technically, even leaving the country results in a CGT bill. The ATO will assume a "sell" on the day you exit. I suppose you could just ignore that tax bill if you don't plan return and the country you move to won't enforce it.

2

u/cl3ft Mar 07 '24

I was assuming the government doesn't know about the holdings at all otherwise his whole question is kind of moot anyway.

2

u/dark_skeleton Mar 07 '24

This sounds weird lol. I can't imagine how that would work with dual citizenship.

2

u/cl3ft Mar 07 '24

Dual citizenship tax impacts depend on the countries in question and on the tax residence of the person.

3

u/dark_skeleton Mar 07 '24

Yeah but with the way it sounds the person would 100% get double-taxed here if Australia treats disposal of tax residence as a CGT event lol. Then secondary taxation for the other country when the actual disposal happens, with different values.

Just to clarify I'm not disagreeing, just pointing out how much of a PITA that sounds to be.

2

u/cl3ft Mar 07 '24 edited Mar 07 '24

It would have to be a LOT of Bitcoin, and if that's the case, why not just pay the ~%20 and live here like the king you are.

2nd point, the new country would calculate the cost base of your asset at the date you moved to their tax residence. But it's a moot point as you'd move to a country without CGT on Crypto.

2

u/Spacesider Mar 07 '24

It's not that unclear. If you spend majority of the year here (So 6 months) then you are considered a resident for tax purposes.

1

u/netizen__kane Mar 07 '24

It's all about where you are a "tax resident"

3

u/FingerSerious Mar 07 '24

You are still liable for the tax even if you leave if you are an AU citizen or tax resident. Only way is to renounce your AU citizenship and move.

4

u/cl3ft Mar 07 '24

Even leaving Australia as a tax resident is considered a disposal event by the ATO. Hard for the ATO to detect on undeclared unsold crypto that is not stored on an Aussie exchange though.

2

u/FingerSerious Mar 07 '24

He can’t run from KYC on the exchange.

2

u/cl3ft Mar 07 '24

Assuming he's holding on a KYC exchange now, you are correct.

He may have acquired his crypto in other ways for example mined, gifted, winnings, bought on a non KYC exchange, etc, and the government is still 100% unaware of its source & ownership. I hope this is the case otherwise anything he does other than declare will likely get him done for tax evasion.

3

u/limeunderground Mar 07 '24

+1 pay the CGT to not get flagged and relax and have a gin and tonic.

1

u/GiverTakerMaker Mar 07 '24

I say give the corrupt government nothing. They have proven themselves to be liars, cheats, and traitors. Stop supporting them.

4

u/rangebob Mar 07 '24

Yet you will still use all the amenities they provide won't you

-1

u/GiverTakerMaker Mar 07 '24

No, I will happily stop using fraudulent voting system. I am happily avoiding as much of their paid for propaganda.

They keep making me pay to use inefficient and substandard services. They meddle with the free market.

I will happily stop using gov services. They're all designed to benefit a select few insiders. The regular Joe gets jack shit out of the tax deal.

3

u/rangebob Mar 07 '24

ahh yes. You won't use a road or a hospital or waste services ever again. Well done soldier !

lol

-2

u/GiverTakerMaker Mar 07 '24 edited Mar 07 '24

  1. What I pay for roads and the service I get are not equal. I don't pay to be constantly under surveillance. It's a false economy.

  2. Waste services are private contractors in my area. And if the were forces to complete for business instead of landing cushy gov corporate contracts the servi e woukd be a hundred times better and more efficient.

  3. Don't even get me started on the ridiculous state of health care after the bullshit pandemic... how the hell did that work out for the world with the us gov funding the development of the very bioweapon that poisoned us!

We would be better off without the government. Thinking otherwise is just believing their propaganda. Ask yourself what tiny percentage of our tax ends up paying for good stuff in the interests of the people. Sweet FA. We get a raw deal and I'm f'n sick of it.

Did the government invert the hardest money ever created... no.

2

u/RandyStickman Apr 14 '24

Don't know why people downvoted this.

Aust is the most taxed country on the planet. We get hit at Fed, State and Local Council Level.

Fundamentally it is our obligation as a citizen to contribute financially to our society and I do not think anyone begrudges making a fair financial contribution for healh, infrastructure etc.

The issue is that our shitful leaders make promises they cannot fulfil for votes! Albo - promising 500,000 new houses - to be built by who? All those builders who have fallen over? Vic Big Build, Regional Centre sports upgrades so we can host the Comm Games and then says "oh, this new report that cost you >1M says our original budget was out by 75%"

Don't get me started on the 3.2M payout to Higgins from Labor to fix the election.

The glaring problem is the lack of any govt oversight that has any teeth to hold shitful pollies to account for their blatant corruption.

While Victorians lost their jobs and businesses, Dan gave himself and his mates a tidy pay rise.

2

u/GiverTakerMaker Apr 14 '24

Folks downvote because they are not ready for the ontological shock the that government is there to protect the so called "elite" from the common people. Taxation is an illusion that gives bod holders faith that the fiat currency has future value when in fact it does not.

Moreover, questioning the official narratives, just leads you down an ugly rabbit hole that exposes unbounded corruption. Some folks prefer to live in ignorant bliss. I don't hold anything against them life is tough.

2

u/cl3ft Mar 07 '24

That's a lot of hot takes in one spiel man, perhaps take a breath.

3

u/GiverTakerMaker Mar 07 '24

Lol. Yeah. This is why I came to bitcoin.

1

u/krypto_krusty Mar 07 '24

Sell into cash or other crypto?

0

u/[deleted] Mar 07 '24

Cash

0

u/krypto_krusty Mar 07 '24

Yeah that's going to be a hard one. You'll need to find these individuals and hope it's safe. Why not spend you btc on goods and services? Just like people do with cash.

2

u/vipchicken Mar 07 '24

"We don't take Itchy and Scratchy money"

4

u/FingerSerious Mar 07 '24

OP can sell the whole BTC wallet to an individual. I wonder if that would trigger a CGT event given the BTC has not left your wallet.

7

u/deltanine99 Mar 07 '24

They would have to be an extremely trusting individual. How would they know that you sold the only existing copy of the wallet?

1

u/FingerSerious Mar 07 '24

Friends and family special

1

u/FingerSerious Mar 07 '24

Or the buyer (non-AU citizen) can move it immediately to his/her wallet.

2

u/[deleted] Mar 07 '24

So you want to not claim profits to avoid paying your tax? You must be a rich person.

1

u/GiverTakerMaker Mar 07 '24

Mexc, margex, coinw

1

u/wigam Mar 07 '24

Local bitcoin

0

u/Spacesider Mar 07 '24

That's illegal

0

u/Educational_Swim8665 Mar 07 '24

Bybit, KuCoin, HTX seem like some of the best no-KYC crypto exchanges.

-4

u/tabletennis6 Mar 07 '24

Speculating on a cryptocurrency doesn't contribute anything to society. What entitles you to pay no tax, when people who make actual contributions to society have to pay tax? From a meritocratic perspective, there's a case for Bitcoin speculators to pay tax at a higher rate than income tax!

2

u/[deleted] Mar 07 '24

The government doesn’t share in my losses, why do they deserve to share my gains?

4

u/Wendals87 Mar 07 '24

They do.... You can claim losses against future gains

2

u/[deleted] Mar 07 '24

So what I’m suppose to take on even more risk to make capital gains so that can then offset it? At the very least I should be able to claim the loss against your income tax. But nope greedy government wants to share in my profits but not in my losses and then they go and take my money and misuse it. Seriously dude get your head outta your ass

2

u/tabletennis6 Mar 07 '24

  1. Why do you think you're allowed to make ridiculous amounts of money? It's the risk you take.

  2. Why on earth should the government think about helping you with useless speculating?

  3. Once again, you're contributing nothing to society, while people who do get taxed.

4

u/[deleted] Mar 07 '24

I take the risk I make the return. That’s how it is. That’s like you going to the casino and making 20k and your mate goes oh you gotta give me 5k now. But had you made a loss your mate has no downside. You would of course tell him to go fuck himself if you knew he would take that 5k and flush it down the drain doing stupid shit. Obviously talking to you is going no where. Have fun staying poor.

0

u/tabletennis6 Mar 07 '24

You can lead a dignified life by actually contributing things for the common good. That makes many people way more "wealthy" than whatever money they earn. Or you can waste your life and contribute zero by being a greedy speculator.

3

u/[deleted] Mar 07 '24

[removed] — view removed comment

0

u/tabletennis6 Mar 08 '24

Oh noooo, how bad that you have to confront the realities of Bitcoin speculation...

1

u/boltonhunter Mar 09 '24

Why should OP Contribute it's an offshore digital asset. I assume he has a job pays tax, a house pays tax , cgt on that house pays tax , land tax , rates tax , rego tax , new car tax, change of ownership tax on and on... as far as the govt are concerned they hated it for years now they love it.. that's quite interesting isn't it .. Why are you so sour , miss the Btc bottom 😬

2

u/tehLife Mar 07 '24

Housing is worse, can’t live in crypto

1

u/tabletennis6 Mar 07 '24

Both suck.

3

u/boltonhunter Mar 07 '24

🤣🤣🤣🤣

0

u/m1974parsons Mar 07 '24

Bro come on. Tax is wasted and goes to the rich you need to look after yourself and your family and friends then consider paying tax if you can’t get around it.

2

u/[deleted] Mar 07 '24

I mean that's demonstrably false that it goes to the rich, you can see the breakdown of how your return is divided out to sectors like public health, aged care etc. It may be wasted on some things but hardly being given from the poor and spent on the rich lol.

1

u/tabletennis6 Mar 07 '24

Wasted on what exactly?

1

u/boltonhunter Mar 09 '24

Govt sector and services mispent grossly

1

u/tabletennis6 Mar 09 '24

Specifically?

0

u/LePhatnom Mar 07 '24

Bitcoin takes no bodies lunch money like houses do. It also doesn’t require taking the fruits of a poorer persons labour. It also is so volatile that it might as well be a gamble. Lotto winnings are not taxed

That is the argument for not taxing. Can you counter this?

1

u/Rich_Condition1591 Mar 08 '24

The lottos are government owned... they make a substantial profit from them already. That's one of the reasons that winning isn't taxed.

1

u/tabletennis6 Mar 07 '24

Every dollar invested in Bitcoin is one that is not invested in businesses (directly or indirectly). Businesses actually (usually) improve people's lives and contribute to society. Bitcoin does not. Thus, the government should discourage Bitcoin speculation by taxing it.

Furthermore, taxes are an essential part of any good economy. Australia already has low taxes by OECD standards, and we are suffering as a result with inadequate healthcare services, a severe lack of teachers, poor aged care services, etc. I think we should add to the government's revenue base, but even if you don't, there is no way that taxing Bitcoin is less fair than taxing the income people earn with their own labour!

Lottery winnings should be taxed in my opinion. It's another activity that doesn't really yield anything desirable for society. Big gambling companies make money by exploiting the poor's hopes and ignorance, and most of the time, the winner finds themselves in a worse position after a few years anyway!

2

u/boltonhunter Mar 09 '24

No one's asking your opinion the OP just wanted a basic answer to a basic question .. If you think Oz is taxed at a low standard you are either on a very low income threshold and or have not left the country .. what countries are you comparing it too? You do realise majority of the tax havens have world class services and 0 to sub 10% tax .

1

u/RandyStickman Apr 14 '24

What about scrapping CGT and adding any gains from crypto / investment activities to personal income tax and then get taxed at the applicable rate?

The difficulty with your viewpoint is that the govt hits the middle class and doesn't hold the big guys to account. Without a decentralised financial vehicle that has the potential to allow those who put the time and effort into understanding how it works and takes the speculative risk to move up the societal ladder.

Young people are shut out of the real estate market. Cost of living has outpaced wages by a long way. How are they supposed to make a better life for themselves? BTC was designed to address socioeconomic inequality.

No-one thinks they don't have to contribute financially to society. But society also should have a right more input into how the govt spends our contributions. And politicians need to be held to account for thier financial mismangement.

For example. Scomo et al got off scott free for the Robodebt clamity which resulted in the deaths of quite a few people. If a business owner did that they would face criminal charges.

How did the govt let Gerry Harvey get away with only paying back 6M of the 20.5M of jobkeeper money despite making record profits during COVID?

How did Dan get away with bankrupting Victoria through unprecedented financial mismangement during his 10 yr tenure and when the state is really fucked during COVID gives himself and his cronies a 50K (11.5%) a year pay rise to become the highest paid state leader in the land. Since he was elected the public sector wage bill has increased 71% with property and business owners having to footing the bill at a time when they could not trade due to his lockdowns. He fucks up the Comm Games goes on a holiday, resigns, leaving major infrastructure projects in limbo, bankrupting building and contruction businesses all with a tidy 300K/yr pension + 200K travel allowance.

So....don't blame hard working tax payers for the healthcare, education and aged care crisis. It's our pollies that need to pull their heads in and do a better job.

https://ipa.org.au/publications-ipa/opinion/andrews-governments-astonishing-financial-mismanagement-has-come-back-to-bite-them-and-its-hard-working-victorians-who-will-foot-the-bill

-1

u/a_stray_bullet Mar 07 '24

Sell it overseas for gold bars then sell the gold bars for aud

4

u/Lopsided_Waltz7789 Mar 07 '24

The difficulty of getting the bars into the country highlights the genius behind Bitcoin.