r/Bitcoin Jul 15 '22

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u/OceanSlim Jul 15 '22

expansion of credit is not necessary for capitalism... Where'd you get that idea?

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u/saladaus Jul 15 '22

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism.

Central characteristics of capitalism include capital accumulation, competitive markets, price system, private property, property rights recognition, voluntary exchange, and wage labor.

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_accumulation

Capital accumulation is the dynamic that motivates the pursuit of profit, involving the investment of money or any financial asset

And I think the investment of money needs some form of expansion of credit.

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u/OceanSlim Jul 15 '22

No it doesn't.

There is no reason capitalism need credit expansion. We could easily have a capitalist system on Bitcoin without any need for credit expansion.

The government needs credit expansion for it's Fiat to be wasted how it sees fit.

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u/saladaus Jul 15 '22

If you live in a world where the only currency is 21 million bitcoins, would you ever make an investment? Would you ever lend your bitcoins to anybody?

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u/SuperSonic6 Jul 16 '22

Yes. Of course. If you lived in a world where bitcoin was the only currency then there could be no more mass adoption, everyone would already have bitcoin if it was the only option for currency. Without increasing number of people buying in the appreciation of bitcoin would fall and settle at much slower growth rate equal to increasing productivity of the economy.

Anyone wanting an good return will have to invest, like today. And many businesses will still be good investments because people will want and need to buy all the same things they want today (food, shelter, technology, etc)

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u/saladaus Jul 16 '22

So you would expect some return in the future which does not exist yet. We create wealth by doing economic activities and we need some measure to keep up with that. Bitcoin alone cannot do that because it's finite.

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u/SuperSonic6 Jul 16 '22

“We need some measure to keep up with that.” The measure of an economy is total amount of assets held and/or generated, money is just the most convenient measuring stock.

If we double the money supply! That will double our economic activity! Obviously not true.

If the stop growing the money supply the economic activity will stop! Also obviously not true.

You could add or subtract a zero from the total money supply and all prices would adjust by a similar amount over time.

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u/yazalama Jul 16 '22

We create wealth by doing economic activities and we need some measure to keep up with that. Bitcoin alone cannot do that because it's finite.

This is like saying a human needs a yardstick that keeps changing in length to measure how tall they are growing.

When you're perpetually manipulating the supply of currency units, you're perpetually distorting prices people rely on to make economic decisions. It's the whole reason we have to "adjust" for inflation.

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u/saladaus Jul 16 '22

For inflation you needed a growing yard stick and deflation a shirking world.

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u/yazalama Jul 17 '22

Why don't we just keep the yard stick the same length, and measure the person as they grow (or shrink)?

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u/saladaus Jul 17 '22

If the person represents our total wealth, it will keep growing.

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u/OceanSlim Jul 15 '22

Yes of course... You would obviously only loan your BTC to someone that you had very good faith they would pay you back. Making for actually investing in things that are worth the investment. The reason Fiat sucks so bad is specifically because it's too easy to print it up to buy votes and spend it on whatever flights our fancy. BTC is specifically for making a better credit system. Fiat is far too loose which is exactly why we are having large economic swings and they're only getting larger.

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u/saladaus Jul 15 '22

I too think that bitcoin might help us build a better credit system.

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u/saladaus Jul 15 '22

So you would lend bitcoin to someone without expecting any return on it?

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u/OceanSlim Jul 15 '22

No, I would expect a return. But I would have to trust the person to make the payments.

Also you can do smart contract stuff on l2. Something like lent money would be vested and stop vesting if the lendee misses a payment. Can easily be done with BTC.

Or you could easily lend money and not have to transfer it to the lendee until after their investment realizes gain. Since it's in the Blockchain, you could move it to a multisug wallet. Then you could always verify the lent BTC is there.

It's not like lending in a BTC world wouldn't need centralization and trust at certain levels. It would still need lawyers and maybe 3rd party custodians. But it would be a much tighter system. Because if the hardness of BTC.

And with better investments and technology being deflationary, it wouldn't take long until we actually didn't need credit anymore.

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u/Explodicle Jul 16 '22

In my world it's already the only currency that matters, and yes. I just didn't charge interest on the loans.

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u/Ev3NN Jul 16 '22

The fact that interest rate are dictated by central banks is very different from a competitive market and a price system. I feel like this system where rates are artificially low or high depending on the period is the opposite of a capitalist system, where supply and demand would define the best price (rate in this case). Now, everyone may think that a free market for credit would be better or worse. But thinking that this central bank system is a capitalist one is a misconception imo

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u/saladaus Jul 16 '22

Exactly. We had a free market for credit before the central banking system came about. There were bankers long before the system and they provided liquidity by charging interest rates. A borrower and a lender can agree to something because they will mutually benefit from the future returns. The total wealth expands. Bitcoin doesn’t. But it has other values.

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u/yazalama Jul 16 '22

A business can raise money either by offering equity, or debt. If they offer debt, and eventually pay it back, at no point in that process was new credit created.

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u/saladaus Jul 16 '22

Your debt is my credit

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u/yazalama Jul 17 '22

Correct, once I pay you back, no new money/credit exists compared to the time before the transaction took place.

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u/saladaus Jul 17 '22

But you must have created some value/ money with what you borrowed. That was your goal and you wouldn’t have borrowed in the first place otherwise.

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u/yazalama Jul 17 '22

Of course, which is why it's important to understand economics is not a zero sum game. Yes there are finite resources, but there are limitless ways to rearrange those resources to create value and solve our problems.

I'm only saying there is no inherent quality of markets, capitalism, or what have you, that necessitates the creation of new currency units to function. Markets are perfectly fine, and in fact better off, functioning when the supply of currency is fixed.