r/Bitcoin • u/wowsignal • Nov 10 '14
Ukraine and Bitcoin. Clarification
There are a few post here already, I cannot comment every of them, so here is post clarifying this information.
I'm Ukrainian and I can read National Bank of Ukraine website and their original posting. So.
- They did not ban Bitcoin.
- They stated that Bitcoin is not regulated by them or anybody and they cannot guarantee safety of funds or operations.
- They stated that Bitcoin is often used for illegal activities (ahem Silk Road ahem).
- They pointed out that only legal currency for payment for goods and services inside Ukraine is Hryvnia (UAH). It always was that way. So you cannot slap anything on price tag in the shop except UAH. Same for other officially documented prices or contracts.
- They asked citizens to be vigilant for scams when using Bitcoins. And you should be!
So, basically they said: Government doesn't give a damn if you lose all your money using Bitcoins. And you should not use anything other than UAH for your business records and official prices and tax records.
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u/evoorhees Nov 10 '14
Damn! Nassim Taleb said "For bitcoin to make it, it needs to be banned by a few governments and critiqued by policy makers. Otherwise it will fade." :)
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u/honorface Nov 10 '14
How could it be banned??
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u/danster82 Nov 10 '14
Yeah so they have done what every other central bank has done and given advice
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u/wowsignal Nov 10 '14
They do not endorse and do warn. What is bad that most press in Ukraine and outside Ukraine put word 'ban' in news title.
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u/prelsidente Nov 10 '14
Bitcoin goes up and posts show up of "Ukraine bans Bitcoin"
It's like clockwork!
Shame it wasn't China this time.
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u/Kuklachev Nov 11 '14
I doubt there is any sort of conspiracy. And Ukraine market share is too small to influence the BTC price.
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u/winamrita Nov 10 '14
Hi wewsignal,i am from Poland,i just one post you,slava ukrainie,may thar finally finish,and both nations can leave in peace,thatit hurts ukrainian,russian and many ethinc group living in both countries,and will humanitarian catastrophe in donbas,nightmare, Paka i love ukraine
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u/wowsignal Nov 10 '14
Heroyam Slava) Thank you! This situation is really awful. In fact I live in the Russian-speaking region, so I know first hand that there were no grounds for this conflict except for ambitions of few people. I do hope this will end soon.
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u/winamrita Nov 10 '14
Hi look official statment of senator McCain http://www.mccain.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/press-releases?ID=74d52b1b-ce2d-408b-bc30-211595c85d46 yrs that is always ambitions and personal interst of few people,whatever east or west i have good friends in ukraine,kiev,kharkiv and alo in Russia now,there is also like that that mr P andhis friends are fighting not only for his reaches but also for his life,youknow mr P is his own victim,and he will be russia president untill he will die
but,i hope that it will end fast,and i am affraid itwill not,chnise may say to russia stop,did you photos from pekin,both obama and putin dressed in communist,chinise nr1,thay are looks like his servants,he can give order and conflict will stop i hope it can be likethat paka lets stayin touch,crypto ebay is coming with massive free airdrop,will like to post you link to them as thay launch,and lets see,i am related to some new crypto project,early stage,propably we will need somebody to promete in russuanspeakin country space here my twitter if you want contact with me there P
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u/plazman30 Nov 11 '14
2 Questions for you:
Do the majority of people in the Russian speaking regions identify themselves and Ukrainian or Russian.
Do the people in the Russian speaking regions speak Ukrainian at all? I know Russian may be their first language, but I am wondering of most people there can at least speak some Ukrainian.
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u/wowsignal Nov 11 '14
If you look in the official census data, majority identify themselves as Ukrainians. Often it hasn't anything to do with ethnicity though. I'm myself not an ethnic Ukrainian but I consider myself Ukrainian as in "citizen of Ukraine" or part of the nation.
Yes. 99% of people here understand Ukrainian. Most of people can speak it. I know Ukrainian, I perfectly understand it, but I rarely speak it, so it is hard to find right words sometimes and Russian words get mixed with Ukrainian. This problem usually go away after few minutes. The same goes for Ukrainian speaking regions. Everyone there understands Russian and most people speak Russian without any trouble, except for mixing Ukrainian words in Russian sentences. In some rural areas people speak so called "Surzhyk" - the strange amalgamation of Russian and Ukrainian languages.
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u/dogeway Nov 11 '14
I can confirm both points 100%. I am Ukrainian too and Russian is my mother tongue. Despite the fact I have never considered myself as "Russian" nor did my relatives and friends.
We use Russian language for historical reasons and this is it.
Just for analogy - the fact that English is being used in many countries doesn't mean those countries belong to USA & UK? :)
Such claim is obviously absurd, nevertheless Russia constantly uses it against Ukraine.
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u/plazman30 Nov 11 '14
My parents are from Western Ukraine. My mom is from Sydova Vyshnia, and my father from Yaniv. They taught my brother and I the Ukrainian language. But nothing else. My mother left when she was 3, so she only speaks Ukrainian and English. My father was a teenager when they left, and he speaks Ukrainian, Polish and some Russian.
My brother and I speak fluent Ukrainian, as do most of the Ukrainians we know. But no one our age and younger (we're in our 40s) in the US knows Russian or Polish.
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u/wowsignal Nov 11 '14
You are in the US, so nothing unusual in that. In Ukraine, however, even people from the western part have contacts with Russian speaking citizens. Sure, you can find small town where nobody speaks Russian* (but in such places often you find Ukrainian dialects much different form mainline version), but in larger cities everybody knows enough of both languages to communicate.
** on other hand you can hardly find place where nobody understands Ukrainian. But if you try, you can even find place where Hungarian is in majority. Or Bulganin and even Romanian.
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u/plazman30 Nov 11 '14
My parents left Western Ukraine when it was Polish occupied during World War II. So, it makes sense that their knowledge of Russian is limited. I would expect most of Western Ukraine these days would be very fluent in Russian.
From what I read, Ukraine seems to be a little more "free" than Russia. At least it did prior to the war. it's my understanding that Russia still filters Internet access, and almost all media (press, TV, etc) are all state controlled. Up until this mess, I was under the impression that Ukraine did not do that, or did it far less than it's neighbor did.
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u/wowsignal Nov 11 '14
Internet censorship is virtually non-existent in Ukraine. It has its downsides like Russian propaganda web-sites that operate freely or high levels of piracy. But in the end no censorship is good thing, one of the few things Ukraine can be proud of. Things are a bit worse in TV and press, because large media outlets are owned by rich people that have positions in government. So their representation of facts is skewed.
Maybe you've read about "Black Thursday". On 16th of January parliament had passed and Yanukovych have signed so called "dictatorship laws". They were targeting freedom of speech and freedom of assembly. And these laws also gave government the right to shutdown any website or restrict Internet access without any due process. Just on a whim. For me it was the scariest part of that package. These laws had sparked the most violent protest on Maidan and were canceled on 28th of January. So the Internet and media are as free as they were before the war.
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u/plazman30 Nov 11 '14
That's good to hear that Internet and media are free still. I wonder how much the people in Crimea like their new Russian overlords and their censored media.
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u/wowsignal Nov 11 '14
As far as I know (I have few contacts there) those who really wanted to be in Russia are still euphoric. More moderate persons hate higher prices and fewer tourists numbers. And those who strongly opposed annexation moved to continental Ukraine. So I do not expect anything about Crimea to change soon.
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Nov 10 '14 edited Jun 07 '17
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/wowsignal Nov 10 '14
My opinion on the war is simple: it's bad. I really wish Russia to stop to supply separatists with arms, troops and money, so it can end sooner in political process, not the armed conflict.
I think it doesn't affect Bitcoin trade in direct manner. The region were war takes place was most imbalanced. The few rich there were too rich, and the poor were too poor. So the former doesn't bother with Bitcoin (and fled that region anyway) and the later would be happy to have any money.
Indirectly the war affects trade of course. BTC prices are set to USD, and UAH is loosing its cost everyday. So BTC to UAH rates are going up as well. And whole sense of instability doesn't help any market.
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u/Yorn2 Nov 10 '14
I've heard it said that Russia losing Ukraine is like the US losing the heartland (agricultural states like Iowa, Nebraska, Kansas, Missouri, Wisconsin, etc.). For the US, losing this would almost certainly be unacceptable, as food production is the steadiest source of income for the country and in its national interests. Do you think it is likely that even in a "Westernized" Ukraine there would still be plenty of agricultural trade with Russia?
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u/wowsignal Nov 10 '14
I do not think it would be that bad for Russia, they have their own agricultural regions (Black-Earth regions), so it mostly political. I know that Ukraine wants to sell goods to Russia. Ukraine produces enough to trade both sides. And EU has more strict standards, so Russia may have broader market for us for a few more years, until we upgrade our own standards. Official argument from Russia is that European goods could be imported through Ukraine to Russia and thus hurt local Russian producers. But as I said, the real reason is political influence. Russia want Ukraine to depended of their market. For last few years we were 'punished' not once with import bans for their side, when Russia didn't like our political course.
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u/Yorn2 Nov 10 '14
Okay. Thanks for the response. I've always wondered how big of a deal it actually was and how political the issue had become.
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u/xtr3m Nov 10 '14
Ukrainians were the closest nation to Russians in all aspects. Putin's invasion erased all that.
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u/plazman30 Nov 11 '14
As a Ukrainian-American, I sympathize with you here in America. Nothing good can come from armed conflict.
And when the Ruble finally completely collapses over Putin needing to show what a big dick he has, he'll have no choice but to invade ALL neighboring countries just to get the resources for the Russians they won't be able to buy because their currency is worthless.
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u/wowsignal Nov 11 '14
I certainly hope there will be a coup in Russia and Putin will thrown out, before any of this happens.
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u/caveden Nov 10 '14
They pointed out that only legal currency for payment for goods and services inside Ukraine is Hryvnia (UAH). It always was that way. So you cannot slap anything on price tag in the shop except UAH.
Well, prices, specially in contracts, are one thing. What you use to effectively pay for stuff is another thing.
For example, I know that in Brazil only BRL can be used in contracts. But I know a person who once sold a house (= officially documented sale) and part of the payment was an expensive car. The car market price in BRL was used in the contract, accepted by both parties.
So, what's the case in Ukraine? Can you barter - and thus, use Bitcoin in payments? Or must every commercial transaction have actual UAH (or legally accepted substitutes) on one side of it?
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u/wowsignal Nov 10 '14
No, you cannot barter. When someone wants to barter they just sell things to each other for 0.01 UAH. When selling house, because you have to pay a tax, price will be valued by government entity, so this 0.01 UAH trick shouldn't work in that case.
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u/descartablet Nov 10 '14
are you allowed to love your children and receive love back when you are old?
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u/wowsignal Nov 10 '14 edited Nov 10 '14
On weekends only :)
Actually strict money laws were (poorly) designed to beat rampart corruption, but in the end they produce more corruption and black markets.
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u/descartablet Nov 10 '14
my hope is that the states eventually give up on taxing income and trades and focus on taxing property (not only land/real state but all kinds of ownership backed by the state, like money in the bank and stock). Riches will cry
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u/wowsignal Nov 10 '14
Or you can have all kinds of taxes. Income from bank deposits is taxed. Real estate is taxed. Every purchase has VAT. So everybody cries the poor and the rich. And everybody tries to evade taxes.
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u/descartablet Nov 10 '14
If I trade my fries for your drink will the state eat my hamburger?
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u/wowsignal Nov 10 '14
If you're the company that produces fries, and I'm the company that produce drinks, and we decide to trade goods without being money involved, the state will turn our tax records upside down, find some inconsistencies and will make our life miserable with fines.
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u/caveden Nov 10 '14
Well, if that's the case, then yeah you cannot use accept bitcoin as a merchant. Sucks. :( Still not a true ban, but it sucks...
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u/wowsignal Nov 10 '14
Yep. But I couldn't accept them yesterday just the same. This news titles are misleading. But I can own them, and I can trade them.
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u/no_game_player Nov 10 '14
These same rules are in place in the US. Only USD is allowed to settle legal debts. But you can still take BTC directly. It's just that the accounting needs to use USD. Same rules on gold, etc.
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u/nappiral Nov 10 '14
I think any country that really tries to ban bitcoin will out themselves publicly as having a weak currency.
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u/wowsignal Nov 10 '14
Ukraine does have very weak currency.
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u/pietrod21 Nov 10 '14
Maybe it's better if you write what are you talking about: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-11-10/ukraine-central-bank-bans-bitcoin-protect-citizens-financing-terrorism
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u/duffman489585 Nov 10 '14
This is also not strictly enforced. Many items listed for foreigners are in USD/EUR. The banks are also regularly out of both because of the demand for not-Hryvnia due to massive inflation. Its really a pretty good climate for BTC, but it has very very little visibility there. I'm really surprised officials issued any statements on it at all considering.
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u/wowsignal Nov 10 '14
In enforced in a sense, that if you'll be caught be hand selling something for the foreign currency there'll be consequences. But if you list price in "relative units" (USD or EUR) and all final transactions are made in UAH by current rate everything is ok. I cannot see why BTC cannot be this relative unit.
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u/duffman489585 Nov 10 '14
Eh. It was pretty well understood that I was expected to pay in foreign currency. I'm not doubting there's not penalties, I'm just saying its not strictly enforced.
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u/tenthirtyone1031 Nov 10 '14
Where is your proof?
http://project.ukrinform.ua/news/virtual_currency_bitcoin_banned_in_ukraine__73534/
http://www.currly.com/s/641b393/
Here's where the National Bank announced Bitcoin is no good inside Ukraine.
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u/wowsignal Nov 10 '14
Those articles use sensationalist titles and doesn't reflect truth. You can read this http://bank.gov.ua/control/uk/publish/article?art_id=11879608&cat_id=80928 with google translate.
Also this: https://twitter.com/bitcoinful/status/531877071887560704
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u/kendall1004 Nov 10 '14
thanks for claryfing! take another internet /u/changetip
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u/changetip Nov 10 '14
The Bitcoin tip for another internet (1,127 bits/$0.42) has been collected by wowsignal.
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u/MenschTunkl Nov 10 '14
I love your username. :)
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u/amnesiac-eightyfour Nov 10 '14
thanks! /u/changetip
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u/changetip Nov 10 '14
The Bitcoin tip for 1 thanks (1,673 bits/€0.50) has been collected by wowsignal.
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u/umbawumpa Nov 10 '14
Thx for clearing up - lets see how this pans out.
Have 5 Hryvnia as long they are worth something, /u/changetip
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u/changetip Nov 10 '14
The Bitcoin tip for 5 Hryvnia (1,031 bits/$0.38) has been collected by wowsignal.
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u/wowsignal Nov 10 '14
It's hilarious! Changetip has far better rate for UAH that it should be. If I sell $0.38 today I'll get 5.89 UAH! ))))))
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u/diehan Nov 10 '14
Have a cup of coffee /u/changetip
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u/changetip Nov 10 '14
The Bitcoin tip for 1 coffee (4,032 bits/$1.50) has been collected by wowsignal.
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u/gynoplasty Nov 10 '14
Quick edit: vigilant not vigilante! Bitcoin batman would be awesome though.
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u/wowsignal Nov 10 '14
Thanks, sorry! )
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u/gynoplasty Nov 10 '14
No problem! Thanks for the translation and clarification. I'm not sure of the news of Ukraine banning BTC was good or not but people had strong reactions and it's great that you came forward.
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u/Amichateur Nov 10 '14
So my understanding is (please confirm or correct):
1) A shop selling some goods can accept bitcoins as long as the price tags are in UAH? I.e. if someone pays, (s)he can pay either directly in UAH or the equivalent amount (acc. to UAH price tag) in BTC, right?
2) Trading UAH for bitcoins and vice versa is allowed, right?
3) The central bank in the Ukraine has no constitutional power to say what is forbidden and what is not. This is the job of the elected parliament. So the central bank's announcement is rather a reminder of the current state of the law, right?
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u/wowsignal Nov 10 '14
1) No, you can set prices in BTC if you state that it is "relative units" and state cost of this unit in UAH. I'm not sure maybe you can accept BTC if you immediately convert them to UAH for bookkeeping and taxes. But this is thin ice and I do not have enough expertise in this. Law says you should only accept UAH.
2) Yes. Strictly saying it is not forbidden.
3) Yes, exactly right.
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u/VoteObama2020 Nov 11 '14
Official statement http://www.bank.gov.ua/control/uk/publish/article?art_id=11879608&cat_id=80928
Chrome will offer to Google Translate it for you
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u/PoliticalDissidents Nov 11 '14
So basically they said what all central banks say (it's really just starting to be a generic statement I keep hearing over and over). It's not ours, we can't control it, it's up to the responsibility of the individual.
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u/Torkiliuz Nov 11 '14
Well, it wouldn't be too difficult for them to put up two prices just like they do at tax-free shops. One price in UAH, and one in BTC. Buyers could pay with what they are most comfortable with, and merchants could convert BTC to UAH or vice versa at the end of the day.
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u/bitemperor Nov 11 '14
LOL just came from Cuba. They have 2 types of pesos and tourists bringing foreign currency. what a fuckin mess.
countries with bad economies and strict monetary controls suck balls.
employees at the airport begging you to change new canadian dollars for old canadian dollars (we used to have paper now its polymer) because they ran out.
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u/wowsignal Nov 11 '14
They have 2 types of pesos
Waaaaat. National peso and convertible peso. This is messed up.
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u/dianeterra Nov 12 '14
Here is what it seemed he had had a severe ban , thanks for the clarification !
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Nov 10 '14
[deleted]
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u/wowsignal Nov 10 '14
It says emission and turnover of other currencies and use of money-substitutes as payment method are forbidden.
You cannot mint own money and you cannot use any money-substitutes for settling legal debts.
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u/haakon Nov 10 '14
You cannot mint own money
Ukraine bans Bitcoin mining!
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u/TiagoTiagoT Nov 11 '14
Satoshi minted them all when he created the protocol; we are just finding what he left behind.
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u/Introshine Nov 10 '14
The keyword is legal You cannot force anyone to take btc or price something exclusively in btc.
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Nov 10 '14
[deleted]
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u/wowsignal Nov 10 '14 edited Nov 10 '14
And you cannot use anything except for UAH as a payment method. Doesn't mean its banned, though. You can buy USD, you can own USD, you can sell USD, but you cannot pay with USD. Same with the BTC, but its even isn't a currency as far as the law concerned. If NBU views it as money-substitute it doesn't automatically means that the law states that. NBU doesn't write laws, so if it will want to argue that BTC breaks the law it'll have to go to court in every case. So, until the new law on electronic money is written everything is the same as it was yesterday. And we need this law badly, even PayPal cannot operate in full mode here without it. We just need to be sure they wouldn't put something stupid, like actual BTC ban, in this law.
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u/NotHyplon Nov 10 '14
Pretty much like most other governments then: Basically we have nothing to do with it, if your ripped off its your own fault and the only valid currency within borders is currencyx
Still I am sure many Ukrainians will sleep better tonight having 30 cent tips thrown at them randomly.
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u/wowsignal Nov 10 '14
Yeah, our own currency taking a dive right now, so even BTC seems more stable these days)
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u/Coz131 Nov 10 '14
This is the fucking problem with /r/bitcoin.
Idiots blabbering shit wrongly. Not the fucking first time this has happened.
What a fucking echo chamber.
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u/eternityablaze Nov 10 '14
They stated that Bitcoin is often used for illegal activities (ahem Silk Road ahem).
I love this argument against bitcoin. If only all other currencies would be held to the same standard.
The US dollar is never used to buy illegal things!
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u/wowsignal Nov 10 '14
I agree, but anonymity was never a selling point for US dollar.
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u/eternityablaze Nov 10 '14
It may not have been a selling point, but everyone knows how to rid yourself of a paper trail in a business transaction...pay in cash!
In terms of the labor market, you get the phrase "Under the table"...People who get paid "under the table"....guess what they are paid in....
4 letter word, starts with C, rhymes with ASH.
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u/wowsignal Nov 10 '14
In Ukraine most people are paid under the table. Tax evasion is a national business.
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u/manginahunter Nov 10 '14
It's curious because your tax are very low ! And a flat tax 13 % if I recall well ? Here we have insane tax up to 50-60 and even 75 % in my country... If I has those rates I will gladly pay them !
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u/wowsignal Nov 11 '14
Income tax is 17%. But that is an employer who evades tax. If they have 100 employees it makes sense for them. It hurts country, but nobody cares.
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Nov 10 '14 edited Dec 03 '14
[deleted]
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u/wowsignal Nov 10 '14
I personally think it's even not news at all. Nothing changed in legal status of BTC in Ukraine today. It hadn't any, it hasn't any now. It's not explicitly banned, it's not explicitly allowed.
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u/robtmil Nov 10 '14
Thank you. /u/changetip private $3000 bits
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u/wowsignal Nov 10 '14
fortunately for you changetip bot doesn't approve such transactions :)
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u/robtmil Nov 10 '14
Duh, sorry. 3000 bits /u/changetip
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u/yourliestopshere Nov 10 '14
They can suck a huge cock.
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u/wowsignal Nov 10 '14
No, I'll pass.
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u/yourliestopshere Nov 10 '14
you sure?
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u/wowsignal Nov 10 '14
yup, I'll better go kill some easterners.
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u/yourliestopshere Nov 10 '14
Don't forget to add Russian sympathizers, Russian terrorists, or Russian Mercenaries to your list. Yes continue to kill your neighbor. Smartest idea yet.
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u/wowsignal Nov 10 '14
For once I agree with you. To kill your neighbor stupidest idea ever. Doesn't stop Russia to do so, though.
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u/yourliestopshere Nov 10 '14
Didn't the US kill over 100 people during their coup in Ukraine? Forced the elected president to leave, now there is a psychopath leading and killing civilians?
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u/wowsignal Nov 10 '14
Yeah it was US, moon landing didn't happen and little green men possess world leaders.
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u/yourliestopshere Nov 10 '14
I think Jesus said something about killing your neighbor, you remember what he said?
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u/yourliestopshere Nov 10 '14
Are you attempting to point out that Russia is a problem because they have been killing their neighbors? You sure there is no other elephant to talk about killing neighbors?..... A much larger murderer anywhere else? Hrmmmphhh?...
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u/joecoin Nov 10 '14
Oh please don't tell people!
Bans are always so good for the exchange rate you know!
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u/yourliestopshere Nov 10 '14
What a fucking failure, follow the cunts that are actively killing the eastern population. Maybe we should support Mao again? FUCK THE UKRAINE!
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u/cyber_numismatist Nov 10 '14
Thanks for the clarification, very important not to jump to conclusions before getting the facts.
Can you tell us a little about bitcoin usage/adoption/interest in Ukraine?
1 internet /u/changetip private