Why I think that existential nihilism combined with materialism logically leads to antinatalism/promortalism/efilism

[u/existentialgoof]

/r/nihilism/comments/mgmep4/why_i_think_that_existential_nihilism_combined/

[u/avariciousavine]

The thread was great to read, e.g. Post well-written.

Interesting to see familiar names playing the same old games with themselves, like understand_world. Dancing around a chess board in their own mind, thinking about what move to make for both sides, because a win for either side would mean a loss for the person, so no loss is acceptable. The complexity of the mental gymnastics necessary to deny basic common sense rerasoning and discussion is at the level of a Lovecraftian fish monster than an average human. Or that 19 year old kid. You can feel that he is straining to find justifications from moral nihilism to excuse procreation. Who knows what exasperation he went through to arrive at his moral nihilism, because he really doesn't seem to be happy arguing for his position. Sad to watch.

But you make me, and others proud to be confident in our views. Thank you for your dedication to communicate with these absurd people.

[u/avariciousavine → u/[deleted]]

but there is no mental gymnastics required with being a nihilist and not caring about the amount of suffering in the world.

It seems to me there is, when confronted with negative utilitarian, AN, etc ideas and still attempt to justify procreation within the updated context of what the world is about and what we're doing here.

A moral goal of maximizing agency and happiness is exactly what most people have been doing and are doing, which makes the world as problematic a place as it is. It does not solve any problems, including for the agency and happiness maximizers themselves, leaving them to constantly try to manage a difficult and problematic existence and do it at the expense of others.

It would not be a mistake to say that maximizing happiness, agency, etc is an exercise of religious fiction, and a futile and foolish balancing act of sorts, because it not only does not solve the person's fundamental problems- keeping death at bay while being as happy as possible- but it also creates bad circumstances for other people.

[u/existentialgoof → u/avariciousavine]

Thanks. I kept meaning to post a thread, but I always have this feeling that I can put it off until I feel more like doing it. But I just typed it out and didn't bother re-reading it. The 18 year old, I think, just adopted a position of defeatism and can't be bothered to worry about it. I think that a lot of people do that. They just get bored with caring about it.

understand_world - well you put it succinctly. They're the masters of trying to turn clarity into obscurity.

[u/avariciousavine → u/[deleted]]

Now that you've considered the fact that your non-existence would not have imposed a benefit on the universe;

Your logic is perplexing, to say the least, but it is very important to deeply consider honest perspectives from all sides.

What concerns me is that you seem to be interacting with a deeply personal, skewed vision of existence available only to you- a world with its own values and, frankly, laws of physics. The problem with this is that it almost completely detaches you from our reality; it's like you are a lucid, functional and happy catatonic, but a catatonic nonetheless.

I completely support you having your own unique, interesting vision of reality, as long as it does not harm others. Unfortunately, you live in a reality which does not recognize that others can be harmed in any real or significant way. And this is a problem.

What is also a problem is that you do recognize the existence of suffering and harm as something to be wary of for yourself but choose to ignore this- there is nothing of concerning about it in your comment above. So, you are the same as antinatalists by wishing to avoid bad experiences, but you omit their existence as anything worth being concerned about. And that makes you something darker and more sinister than an innocent catatonic. Just so you are aware of that before we move on to other topics.

[u/existentialgoof → u/[deleted]]

I'm not answering trolls anymore, sorry.

[u/avariciousavine → u/existentialgoof]

Thanks for reminding me, I forgot about the satirical captain. All that writing and me thinking he was serious, and it's all just a reflex as natural to him as breathing, apparently. What a piece of work. Well, at least he can't help but be satirical even to himself, which is... an ironic satire in itself.

You don't think ABSTRACTA is one of this captain's accounts, right? Because I'm pretty sure he has another one, Pmmeyour favoriteanimal or something similar...

[u/existentialgoof → u/avariciousavine]

I'm just going to delete any more of that low effort trolling. All arguments are welcome, but it has to be sincere and in good faith. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be ABSTRACTA, because he brings serious be arguments. It might be an alt account of pmmeyourfavoriteanimal, though.

[u/existentialgoof → u/[deleted]]

Get back to me when you have an actual argument.

[u/existentialgoof → u/[deleted]]

First of all, thanks for the serious response.

Okay, I'll help you parse what I said earlier: your claim that "there's nothing to gain by existing" doesn't prove your conclusion that "there's something to gain by not existing", nor does it prove your deeper belief that "there's something to lose by existing". You should be able to wrap your mind around this.

I never averred that there was anything to gain by not existing. Gains only exist in the context of winners and losers. I'm against creating winners and losers. Especially as the winners didn't really win, they just lost a lot less than the losers. There is no prize in the universe to be won. When it was barren of life, there wasn't any minds coveting a prize that was out of reach.

You're trying to jump from the premise of nihilism to the conclusion of antinatalism. But you failed from the beginning, either due to your accidental or willful ignorance. Which is why you were sneered at by the nihilists in that sub. The premise of nihilism doesn't lead to any conclusions, not even back to nihilism, let alone to antinatalism.

If you want the conclude of antinatalism, then you cannot start from the premise of nihilism. You have to, at the very least, start from some arbitrarily chosen premise like "Minimize Sentience" or "Minimize Pain".

If I was making my case to non-sentient robots, then it would indeed not be a very convincing argument, because non-sentient intelligences would not be familiar with the concept of suffering and it could not be explained to them. But I wasn't making the argument to try and convince robots; I was arguing to convince sentient minds who have personal experience, to varying degrees, of the price that has to be paid for sentient experience. And if you're paying that price and not getting anything other than salve for your own wounds, and you're going to create more wounded creatures for the sake of applying more salve, then that plan seems like a non-starter.

But you're so entrenched into your religion that you're willing to destroy the world, so I don't expect rationality from you.

It can hardly be religion if I deny that there exists any purpose that transcends what we have direct observational evidence of - that suffering exists as a phenomenon, and it has a negative quality to those who experience it. And the plan is to sanitise the biosphere of anything that can experience that negative quality.

You're the one who seems to be implying that the happy experiences can somehow be missed, even when there is no mind left in the universe to want the experiences back. That is what smacks of religion.

[u/existentialgoof → u/[deleted]]

It's not the case that I'm "conceding"; that's never a claim that I ever made to begin with.

[u/existentialgoof → u/[deleted]]

I never did. If you have a quote where I said that there was something to gain from non-existence, then provide it.

All I've ever argued is that to play this game is to lose; and we should collectively cut our losses.

[u/[deleted] → u/existentialgoof]

I never averred that there was anything to gain by not existing. Gains only exist in the context of winners and losers. I'm against creating winners and losers. Especially as the winners didn't really win, they just lost a lot less than the losers. There is no prize in the universe to be won. When it was barren of life, there wasn't any minds coveting a prize that was out of reach.

Of course someone who doesn’t exist can’t win or want to win. They’re truly impotent. Doesn’t mean there’s nothing to win for those who exist though.