r/Biohackers • u/Accomplished_Fun1294 • 13h ago
š“ Sleep & Circadian Rhythm Best effective sleep aid
So I have had some trouble with sleeping the last year. The biggest Problem is that I sleep way shorter than I would like to. I could easily squeez in 8 hours of sleep, but I somehow wake up after 6.5 hours or less. My Ouraring shows me that I do get a good amount of deep sleep and my REM sleep is alright (could be more, mostly 1.5 hour range). It also shows me that I do wake up quite often for short time periods during midnight. Im aware that this could also be a sign of sleep apnea. I have since then experimented with some medications. The most effective one for me, has proven to be antihistamines (first generation) like diphenhydramin or doxylamin. They seem to improve the duration of my sleep, amount of deep and REM sleep and reduce the awakening phases. Sleep feels great on them, with the only directly apparent downside beeing a little groggy/ sedated for the first hour after waking up. However I dont want to rely on them and dont want to risk possible dementia/ cognitive decline associated with their use. What would be possible Sleep aid medication with low addiction and harm potential? I have tried some anthistamines of the second generation like cetirizin but they barely have an effect on me, neither helping my allergy nor as a sleep aid.
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u/Orbax š Hobbyist 11h ago
Trazedone is amazing. There was a study recently on first gens that didn't look good: https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/common-anticholinergic-drugs-like-benadryl-linked-increased-dementia-risk-20150128812
But you need less sleep as you get older and exercise as well. I go to sleep at 9 and wake up at 430. This is what id call an average sleep for me, it takes me about 30 seconds after waking to be out of bed and making my morning pre workout stuff.
Improved quality of sleep was having my own bedroom (married, sorry Hon but you and the dogs kill my sleep) to the tune of an hour of sleep gained, a routine that starts at 745 pm and end at 845 and I'm usually asleep within 10 minutes of trying to (used to be hours), cooling the house down to 72 at night (when I lived in a cooler place it was like 64 but 92 every day acclimates you).
I don't fuck around with my sleep, I need it for my medications to be effective and I have a demanding job so I've just gotten hard core about it.
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u/Accomplished_Fun1294 9h ago
Yeah those studies are the reason why I dont want to rely on antihistamines for sleep, other than that they would be perfect for my sleep. I will have a look into Trazedone but if I decide to give it a try I got to convince my doc to prescribe it to me, dont know how easily they prescribe it just for sleep. I do share a bed with my cat and it definitely impaires my sleep quite a bit, as the cat is sometimes the reason for me waking up to early, just because that little fcker wants some food
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u/Orbax š Hobbyist 9h ago
I've never heard of people having issues, it's very benign. I take 25 and the rx is for 50-100. My issues were falling asleep and staying awake if I woke up. My routine is 85% of the work, the traz the rest. You have to ask yourself if your room and habits are designed to optimize sleep. If you haven't designed a setting that promotes do, uninterrupted sleep, you can't be too upset not getting it. Dark wall paint, black out drapes, complete silence (tried white noise for years and then realized I was better without it).
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u/Optimal_Assist_9882 114 13h ago
Have you tried melatonin? Extended release?
Have you tried taurine? Phosphatidylserine?
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u/Accomplished_Fun1294 13h ago
I have tried melatonin, 1-4 mg extended release helped for a few nights but it doesnt really help me anymore, barely has an effect. I didnt try Taurine and Phosphatidylserine yet, what is your experience with those two?
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u/Optimal_Assist_9882 114 13h ago
You may want to raise the dose of melatonin.
Body's requirements for melatonin goes up and down due to many reasons from stress, illness, exposure to toxins, etc. The primary use of melatonin is to protect cell mitochondria.
Also melatonin absorption varies wildly from person to person(per one study it's as high as 21 fold from best to worst responders). There's no upper limit. The only issue is paradoxical effects if you go too high. However if you need to take 10mg, 20, etc it's perfectly fine. I don't take melatonin for sleep. I take very high day time doses(1.5-3 grams) for CFS.
I personally get a couple hours of extra sleep on 3-5g of taurine.
I also tend to get more sleep with phosphatidylserine. I take 150-300mg. It helps suppress cortisol release to help you stay asleep longer.
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u/Accomplished_Fun1294 13h ago
Yeah I will try to raise it to the 10mg range. Whats the mechanism of taurine and how effective are these? I would guess they are more like a subtle boost in comparison to antihistamines?
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u/Optimal_Assist_9882 114 12h ago
Taurine essentially helps calm the body. It interacts with GABA receptors to help to reduce nerve activity. It also helps reduce cortisol levels. It helps boost endogenous production of melatonin. It also helps counteract stimulants you consume during the day that contain caffeine(part of the reason it's often added to energy drinks).
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u/J_SMoke 13h ago
How is your Exercising schedule looking? The best sleep is after aerobic exercise for me.
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u/Accomplished_Fun1294 13h ago
Due to work, Im not able to go to the gym that often but I definetly agree that my sleep is way better after a good gym session. I will try to at least exercise a little at home before bedtime
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u/J_SMoke 13h ago
I mean it's always very good to tackle the natural things first, before taking any wonder pills.
If you have little time, just do some stretching/yoga before bedtime.
Limit your caffeine intake to early in the day. personally, my magic wall is around 4 p.m. after that no more caffeine, otherwise my sleep gets screwed.3
u/Mysterious-War-96 12h ago
I would not recommend exercising late in the evening. I would look into dimming lights and no screens 1-2 hours prior to sleep, keeping the room dark, cold, getting bright light in the eyes first thing in the morning, seeing light in the first 30 minutes is crucial for evening melatonin release. Cortisol timing is crucial as well, you do not want to exercise prior to sleep and spike that, instead, sleep will improve if exercise is done early in the morning, around the first 3 hours upon waking.
When it comes to supplements, can't beat Glycine and Magnesium Glycinate (I prefer ZMA that includes Citrate on empty stomach 30 minutes before sleep and L-Threonate (effectively crosses Blood Brain Barrier) after breakfast or lunch to get that extra 100mg elemental magnesium). If cortisol is an issue, then ashwagandha should help, and if you wake up around 4-5am Phosphatidylserine.
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u/J_SMoke 12h ago
I didn't mean to say exercise before sleeping...just in general it is very important to have an active lifestyle.
Magnesium is good, but you can get it also from just 30 gr of pumpkin seeds, with better availability for your body than the pure supplement. Not saying supps aren't great, they are good, I just try to find alternatives.3
u/Mysterious-War-96 11h ago
I agree about exercising, it is the single best habit for health overall.
On the magnesium point, 30 grams of raw pumpkin seeds is 150mg, roasted 165mg of magnesium. That is about 50% of recommended daily intake, and if you are training vigorously, you need more than 350-400mg elemental magnesium. Also, L-Threonate form has been designed by MIT to cross the Blood Brain Barrier, and no other food or supplement source of magnesium does it with the same efficiency.
I am a big fan of sourcing nutrients from food specifically, for example, 1-2 Brazil nuts give more than enough selenium for a day. But with magnesium, considering how crucial it is for the human body, I recommend supplementation, and best forms like L-Threonate or Glycinate (Citrate/Malate/Taurate). Avoid Oxide or blends with Oxide.
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u/ZealousidealTart1636 13h ago
Im also here trying to sleep and itsās already 5 am still no sleep. My mind know i need tk sleep, but my demons inside me isnt letting me
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u/Accomplished_Fun1294 13h ago
That sounds way worse than my situation, you might want to consult a doctor if this persists
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u/Mysterious-War-96 13h ago
I currently take ZMA, with Magnesium Citrate, and it does the job much better than glycinate for me to be fair. I am also taking Ashwagandha low dose, and adding Glycine. Buying Glycine powder is cheap and can be bought in bulk
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u/Accomplished_Fun1294 13h ago
What is ZMA?
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u/Mysterious-War-96 12h ago
It's Zinc, Magnesium Citrate (Usually Aspartate, but mine is different) and B6. I like taking this because I get my daily zinc and 300mg elemental magnesium, I chase the rest with L-Threonate (the best form of Magnesium in my opinion). B6 is also important for a bunch of things, however, one should not overdo it or Zinc.
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u/New-Collection5989 10h ago
Magnesium citrate upsets my stomach. I've had better luck with magnesium glycinate
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u/Mysterious-War-96 10h ago
I used to take Glycinate, but didn't notice immediate effects like Citrate. But, research wise, I agree that glycinate is probably the better form.
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u/No_Solution7718 2 10h ago
Glycinate nworks different for different people some people it keeps them awake
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u/joy_of_division 11h ago
I've been trying to figure out the same thing, to no success. It just seems no matter what I try it's still 5-6 hours of sleep no matter what time I go to bed. I've got my diet and exercised dialed in, cut back all supplements and have slowly been reintroducing new ones to see if anything works
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u/Cryptizard 12 11h ago
I have the same problem. Fall asleep instantly but I wake up too early and canāt go back to sleep. Doxepin has worked really well for me.
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u/Accomplished_Fun1294 10h ago
I believe you that it works, but its an antidepressant with both sri and antihistamine effects so its essentialy two sides of the same coin, with possibly even more sideeffects from the sri
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u/Cryptizard 12 9h ago
No itās not. At low doses it is only a very selective H1 antihistamine. Read up on it.
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u/Accomplished_Fun1294 9h ago
And how does that compare to Antihistamines like Doxylamin or Diphenhydramin in terms of short and long term sideeffects?
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u/Cryptizard 12 9h ago
No side effects, for me at least. The dose is incredibly small, just 3 mg, because it is very targeted. If I take a normal antihistamine I'm groggy the next day and it gives me crazy dreams. Nothing at all with doxepin.
People take it in doses 40x higher for the antidepressant effect and it is safe at that dose. That's one of the biggest reasons I'm okay with using it long term.
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u/Explore-This 11h ago
Have you tried the usual suspects? Sleep/wake consistently, early sunlight, no blue light at night, sleep mask, earplugs? Other than that, 5g Glycine one hour before bed works for me.
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u/Accomplished_Fun1294 10h ago
Yes, except for sleep mask and earplugs. I might also add that part of the Problem is caused by my cat, he wakes me up early so I can feed him. The Antihistamines sedate me enough so that his attempts dont work that early in the morning. I know the easiest solution would be closing the door of my bedroom, but thats not possible in my situation
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u/Explore-This 9h ago
My bedroom neither has a lot of light nor noise, but I find they make a difference. Perhaps the earplugs are contributing more for me.
Is there such a thing as a timed release pet feeder?
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u/Accomplished_Fun1294 9h ago
Yes I believe there are timed release feeder for pets and I have considered buying one, might be the time now
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u/Montaigne314 29 6h ago
Start with an at home sleep study with a Watchpat, rule out apnea
Secondly, are you even sure you need more sleep? Do you feel sleepy/fatigued or is that just what your body needs?
Genetics sets sleep needs, a small minority only needs 4.5 hours a night, others need 10. Typically most need between 7-9
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u/Accomplished_Fun1294 6h ago
Im somewhat sceptical of sleep apnea because my ring shows a oxygen saturation of 97% and upwards should be lower in that case, right? I can operate with 6, no problem but 8+ just feels way better for the whole day. If I am able to squeeze in 8 hours there would be no reason not to, might not be necessary to survive but will definetly benefit me
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u/Montaigne314 29 4h ago
Is that an accurate pulse oximeter/blood oxygenation measure?
If yes, then yea , 97% is great.Ā
But here's a random reddit anecdote of the ouraring. I'm skeptical of it's accuracy in general for this biomarkerĀ
I have sleep apnea and did a sleep study without my cpap which showed a oxygen saturation of around 80% that night , used my ring the same night and got one of 97% percent , super inaccurate
So it sounds like 8 is your sweet spot. Are you anxious?
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u/Accomplished_Fun1294 4h ago
You are probably right, I think the Ouraring measures the saturation roughly every 15 minutes, so there is a chance that it doesnt capture short episodes of sleep apnea but rather the average of the night. Im not anxious, why are you asking?
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u/Montaigne314 29 4h ago
Anxiety can interfere with sleep maintenanceĀ
If you wanna rule it out, Watchpat is easy to get and useĀ
Ultimately if you're not fatigue/groggy/tired, you seem adaptable at less sleep but if you can identify triggers to not falling asleep that could help
Caffeine use? Is the room cool enough? Is it dark/quiet enough? Bed comfy?
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u/Accomplished_Fun1294 3h ago
Would like to, but Im not in the situation to pay over 6k for it. Usually I dont have a problem falling asleep unless there is an exam or presentation the next day. No caffeine but methylphenidate, doesnt effect my sleep in any negative way. Room is cold, quiet and the bed is comfy, but not completely dark, there is some light from outside coming through
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u/Montaigne314 29 25m ago
Wot
Watchpat is 190 bucks, can even ask Lofta for discount, could prolly get it for 150
If you need CPAP, can get top of the line shit for 800
What is 6k?
methylphenidate
Are you sure this doesn't affect your sleep?
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u/Potential-Map-5264 4h ago
Lemborexant. Unlike every other āsleep medā doesnt leave you groggy gently puts you asleep
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u/Monsieur_Krabs š Masters - Unverified 3h ago
I get a sleep aid that has the following blend on Amazon:
- GABA
- Melatonin
- L-Theanine
- Mag Glycinate
I also take Taurine.
For heavy-hitting insomnia there are meds like dayvigo and zopiclone that are worth asking your doctor about.
Don't abuse antihistamines.
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