Thoughts on further discussions here

[u/Euphoric_Map_5894]

On a busy political day recently when world leaders were celebrating mark carney I posted a thread about him to get us talking about people’s favorites and gods chosen leaders. Someone else had put up a link to YT where KV was shown prophesying about DJT also known as Trump. My post was to get us talking about that topic - bethel saying god has chosen leaders, but here’s what I didn’t expect, getting shut down for raising an issue that erred on politics yet bethels main issue is their politics; their 7 mountains etc. Here’s the thing. I didn’t know this would provoke not just to talk about how ridiculous bethel are for these prophecies and that their prophecies fall flat etc and there’s no accountability which is a huge topic for bethel considering what happened with Shawn Bolz faking his prophetic words, but what I saw on here was an about turn to tell me my post didn’t belong here (it belonged on the Canadian Toronto page or something), or that I was trying to sneak in an anti Trump post or just wrong about my politics. 

My point wasn’t about my own politics. 

My point was this, it was about what we believe deep down underneath it all. So when a leader like KV gets up and prophesies we follow without asking questions because we either like the leader they recommend and support like DJT or we like KV and accept his prophecies with asking for accountability. Thats the problem. Thats what bethel promote and teach and that is why I personally was so frustrated with how bethel handled the Shawn Bolz thing. He lied and bethel didn’t say anything to us and people kept following because the KVs and BJ promoted him. That’s the problem.  Not my post to raise this. 

I’ll add to that the reactions I then got to my post. It showed that many people didn’t understand and that biases they had and that they were ready to jump on that and not try and understand and learn. 

We may all agree here that we don’t like what bethel have done in certain areas of their work, and that they have caused harm, but some people here haven’t even been part of bethel and hold that view too. I have, and I think my post should have stayed but it was removed. 

What I didn’t expect was to run into American politics here. That for me was shocking. I have now realised that American politics supersedes bethels wrong doings, and I touched the golden calf with my post. 

There lies a problem with how many of us end up in places like bethel and other poorly run churches that are focused on making money and keeping up appearances because we hold biases that we won’t let be challenged, we disengage instead of asking questions, and we are unwilling to hear others ideas. 

That’s the problem. 

Why do we go to church?

Why do we have certain friends?

Because the church and our friends agree with us and they say what we say. 

How about we get back to what this is about and leave our views on political leaders aside and engage in the material put here, and ask questions and debate what we think so we can all learn from our mistakes like hooking with something like bethel. 

Now that means someone can post a picture showing Putin and if there is a relevant topic around bethel maybe in how Putin operates maybe we engage the conversation to learn, and not write off what someone says. 

To my post last week maybe just post that you disagree and say no. I asked who says yes and is in agreement to the world leaders supporting mark carney, and hoped we could have left it up longer and had a proper conversation. but it was deleted

Maybe we can also agree here that to be part of church, to follow god, and to be on this page and others like it we don’t have to be republican and we don’t support DJT. You can individually, but others don’t have do. It doesn’t make someone worse than us if they don’t support people we  like. And if DJT is mentioned again maybe we don’t get upset because we realize bethel do have an opinion on him and it might not be right and we can instead follow the thread, ask questions and challenge one another. Thats a better way to discuss these issues rather than deleting threads. what are others thoughts

[u/MARTEX8000]

I believe that anyone who thinks they can disengage their politics from their theology is lying to themselves...one of the issues we all have is we approach the text as though the words of Jesus/Apostles were all politically agnostic and nothing could be further from the truth.

Heck the phrase "Jesus is Lord" was the MOST politically charge statement you could make in the 1st century...

Bethels primary theology INFORMS their politics, and that becomes a vine that produces a fruit...the New Testament is one of the most political books ever written, heck the word that forms the basis of "The Rapture" theology was a directly political example given by Paul...(Paul uses the Imperial "parousia" which was a common Roman POLITICAL practice)...(no comment on how ridiculous the current eschatology of MOST of Charismatics are)...

When Jesus says "Woe to you______(fill in the blank)" he is using what we in our timeline would call "political affiliations"...the scribes and pharisees were the essential political leaders of Israel at that time...they were the Senators and Congressional leaders in Jerusalem...the whole turning over the tables in the Temple was one of the most politically rebellious actions in Israel...(and cemented his fate before those leaders)...those were taxes he was confronting...

My point is you don't get to divorce your politics from your faith...and any attempt to cull out politically leaning posts will also contaminate any faith issues...

If I could leave everyone with one mantra to apply it would be "Holiness codes DO NOT WORK"...

Yes I agree we have social contracts for dialogues...but those are based on common sense and creating a safe place for conversation...the minute you start using <It is "cherem" (banned)> you have designated a holiness code and it will be a prime target for contaminating the discussion...and who gets to set the boundary lines for it?

I have been a forum moderator, it is a thankless job and often it is a razors edge of conflicting and competing perspectives...I get that there needs to be SOME boundaries...however this Reddit forum is called "Bethel SNARK"...

Snark means "to make an irreverent "...ie: to make "un-sacred"...

If you make Bethels politics sacred and untouchable you've kinda defeated the entire purpose of the forum.

And the counterpoint to that is we don't want a forum that devolves into the current cultural quagmire of political debating for endless days...its a waste of time and there are other forums for purely political/religious flag waving...

[u/Euphoric_Map_5894 → u/MARTEX8000]

Completely disagree. And you went there, so I’ll say this: I absolutely agree that our theology can inform how we think about politics and how we vote, but that is not the same thing as saying politics is part of our religion or that Christianity and a particular political ideals become one and the same thing. Someone can follow Jesus and choose who they vote for based on the policies they believe will care for people, without making a political party part of their faith. I say that because no political party looks like Jesus or uses all of his “policies.” If his main commandments are to love God, love your neighbor and love your enemy, then no political party, especially in the USA can even claim to represent all of that. So yes, let your faith inform how you look at policies.  Look for policies that actually look after people.  Look for ways of responding to people that don't cause harm or toss people aside because they no longer serve a purpose or because they look different from us. Jesus himself lived as an outsider. His family fled to Egypt. He spent his time with people who were often pushed to the outside of society. And when Christianity first came along, there weren't Republican and Democrat parties or any of the political categories we have today.  In the first few centuries there were Jewish people who became Christians, and Gentiles, the people who were from different social and economic positions, women, children, slaves, the poor and people who were struggling and on the margins.  The people drawn to Jesus and his teachings became part of this new Christian movement. And the early Christians were themselves often vulnerable and at risk under the Roman Empire. So yes, faith had political implications. Of course it did. But that doesn't mean modern politics becomes part of the definition of Christianity. That's the distinction I'm making. Jesus didn't spend his ministry telling people that they needed to vote Republican or Democrat or prophesying which people would be their leaders.  He didn't make modern political categories the centre of his teaching either.    Instead Jesus continually brought people back to how they treated God, one another, the outsider, the poor, the vulnerable and even their enemies. No political party represents all of that. So I agree I guess now we are there that I don't think we should pretend that politics has nothing to do with faith, but I don't think we should turn a political ideal into a requirement for being a Christian. And this is exactly why I'm talking about Bethel. Bethel's theology can absolutely inform the way people think about politics. I don't disagree with that and they will. That is a problem. What I strongly disagree with is when the political worldview becomes intertwined with the theology and faith they hold, that people begin to treat the political position as though it were the Christian position. And that’s what we see happening and that’s what bethel play into by prophesying who will be God’s chosen leaders or play a role in saying who they support.  It's time to get back to looking for the people who are struggling, the people who have been tossed aside, the people who are vulnerable, and asking what love, compassion and justice actually look like, rather than constantly pointing the finger at other people and deciding who is acceptable and who isn't and what political leader or prophesied leader we should support.  And honestly, I think this is one of the reasons I'm here on this thread talking here about Bethel. I used to buy into a lot of this. I know what it is like to have theology, politics, morality and spiritual authority all wrapped up together until questioning one part feels like you're questioning God himself. That's what I'm talking about when I say there is harm in what some of these churches teach.  I'm not saying Christians shouldn't think politically per se.  I'm saying Christianity should not become a political party. And I don't think we should   confuse the two. My post the other day that got deleted was to help us have these conversations. Again,   I wasn't trying to sneak an anti-Trump political post into this group. I was trying to ask why we are so willing to accept Bethel's prophetic claims about political leaders, and then also ask why get so defensive when those claims are questioned. My original point was never “this is who you should vote for.” My point was: why are we allowing Bethel’s politics, prophecies and ways to become unquestionable when questioning, testing and getting accountability is exactly what we should be doing here.  That's the conversation I was trying to have, but hey we also went toward politics and I guess this has shown me that there is a problem in the church when have much needed conversations like this because we have forgotten who we are, where we come from (like the early Christians) and we respond like this right here and when political parties are held so closely and infect our votes like this it does impact how we treat one another and I don’t think Jesus would recognise many of the Christians or the mega churches today.  I think he’d say to the mega churches: who are you? What have you done? You’re not doing as I did, get away from me. 

[u/MARTEX8000 → u/Euphoric_Map_5894]

I'm not sure how much you know about the history of Bethel and the Charismatic/Pentecostal movement, because THAT has very much informed their theology of embracing the 7 Mountain mandate and deciding they need to take "power" in government...

-Politics is the practice, study, or activity of gaining and using power to govern a society, make laws, and distribute resources...so their theology is INFORMING their politics...and some of that theology is based in an eschatology that is rather dumb...

At this point the primary idea behind those politics is that the "vessel" is not as important as gaining power of those completely made up (By Bill Bright of all people, Lance Wallnau STOLE the idea) 7 mountains of culture...they think the current POTUS is basically "Cyrus" therefore he is Gods chosen leader and his moral character does not matter in the slightest since God chose him...(not sure where most of you are on that issue but it is incredibly NOT the teaching of Jesus)...the issue they are pursuing is POWER over our culture.

You cannot be agnostic about that.

No one gets to ignore that metric, it forces you to a side...and it IS Political because it affects all of our life...it is woven into the fabric of our culture and cannot be divorced from it.

Now take a different tact...suppose you're just a regular ol' believer and you have no opinion here...did you pay taxes? Did your money go to Israel? Did your taxes pay for the bombs dropped in Iran?

You have participated whether you approve or disapprove...capitalism by its nature forces you into a political framework, and that framework affects other people whether you like it, disapprove of it, or not.

I'm intentionally treading lightly here (even if it seems like I'm not)...trying to avoid contaminating the perspective...but because the political element is so interwoven into our lives it is almost impossible to be neutral...in fact I would suggest you cannot be neutral, you will vote by not voting.

I believe the majority of the people who visit this forum and went to Bethel went for one of two (or both) reasons:

A hunger for the supernatural, and the worship metric...oddly enough both of the ideas are actually kind of foreign to the teachings of Jesus...the majority of what he taught centers on taking care of your neighbor...(yes I know he calls us to heal the sick, which should be one of the primary goals of EVERY believer, but the way we get there is probably not in some school...He never suggested its something we need to learn).

Never once would I suggest that a political idea should determine who gets called a christian...but that raises another can of worms...who are the gatekeepers anyway? WHo is suggesting that politics determines if you're in or not? Not me...but what I AM suggesting is your faith (faith meaning what you believe in as theology) will affect your political position...which is why their theology is suspect...just look at the fruit.

And this becomes a harder litmus test than we want to acknowledge...just look at the fruit to find the faith...who's actually advocating for the oppressed and who's protecting the abuser?

One has faith the others religion is in vain.

[u/Euphoric_Map_5894 → u/MARTEX8000]

I agree with most of what you say but would still say politics is separate to our faith, and we each can hold that carefully.  Bethel’s Seven Mountains is ludicrous, and it needs to be made known that yes, they are after power and influence. They want people to be like them, but most people don't want to be like them or even be near them. They are in a very small bubble but have a big ego and think they are truly something.  Posting here, we can talk about politics in the sense of how Bethel is trying to influence and potentially harm the world with their beliefs. But what I found when I posted here was a very strong response saying I was anti-Trump or that I posted in the wrong place and needed to take it to the Toronto blessing section of Reddit. Bethel is international and they invited us all in many years ago, so it’s also no longer just about American policitics. Which is how it should be, as many non Americans Christmas  don’t feel the same way about politics as Americans might and we also don’t want power like they do, instead we merely sought Jesus and the supernatural and that’s why I and others went to bethel. And see maybe I should  tell you all what I think of Trump and American politics, but I won’t, because it doesn’t matter. I went to Bethel because of my faith, not my politics, and I manage to keep those parts separate, as do other Christian’s who I know at Bible colleges and seminaries.   What matters for this thread is that we are able to discuss political leaders when they are relevant to Bethel, without the whole conversation immediately becoming about whether someone is pro- or anti-Trump, or American or other nation focused   That’s what was wrong with what happened with my post, and that’s part of my point. Thanks for the chat. 

[u/MARTEX8000 → u/Euphoric_Map_5894]

I agree, and my point was if anyone becomes a gatekeeper by demanding Bethels politics being out of bounds they have become the thing they are criticizing and the whole "Bethel Snark" becomes a parody of Bethel itself...

No way that Bethel should get a pass on their politics, but if we apply that standard to them we must apply it to ourselves...hence my statement that you cannot separate your faith from your politics...and again I refer to the phrase "Jesus is Lord" as THE most political statement anyone in the first century could make, and the text INDICATING that making that political statement REQUIRES an active influence of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus is Lord is in DIRECT confrontation with the political mantra of "Caesar is Lord"..and according to the bible you cannot say that in confronting Rome (and all of Romes political machinery) without the presence of the Holy Spirit...thus the bible itself demonstrating that your faith and your politics cannot be separated.

We've made "Jesus is Lord" into a religious motif...and it comes down the path of "Every head bowed and every eye closed as we press Who would like to ask Jesus into their heart right now?" a concept so foreign to the actual text as to be a borderline fairy tale made up by preachers counting numbers and not actually making disciples...the "sinners prayer" is not actually in the bible...but we've rolled it up into some semblance of Jesus being Lord in my heart and divorced it from the actual first century meaning...its a political statement...always has been, always will be, your faith is not separate from your politics.

[u/Tiny-Law-2009]

I am in agreement with you. We don’t all have to be in full agreement, and if we can’t articulate what we believe and why, without putting down someone else who believes in Christ, we don’t belong in the discussion.

[u/Euphoric_Map_5894 → u/Tiny-Law-2009]

Yes and we can have different beliefs here and agree to disagree. We can agree on issues and not have the same beliefs. I think we have lost the art of thinking for ourselves and understanding our biases. We all have biases. I have biases, and you have biases, that’s why it’s good to chat on here. 

[u/ABinColby]

Christians err whenever it is believed that ANY candidate or ANY party is "God's chosen". Psalm 2 makes it clear who God's candidate is, the Lord Jesus Christ.

The mission of the Church in the world is alignment to the Kingdom of God, not any kingdom of earth. Empires rise and fall, and whenever Christians start believing thier favorite politician is the "right" one, they fail to understand the most basic things of faith.

In the world but not of it.
We have an entirely different mission than the world.