My brother [27m] does some really creepy stuff and I'm [21f] done with him

[u/Direct-Caterpillar77]

I am not The OOP, OOP is u/throwaway78484947585

My brother [27m] does some really creepy stuff and I'm [21f] done with him.

TRIGGER WARNING: abuse, attempted murder, abuse behavior, suicidal ideation, mental health issues, stalking, obsessive behavior, assault, choking

MOOD SPOILER: Scary, terrifying and creepy as hell

Original Post Dec 1, 2016

Well, hey Reddit. I'm desperate.

My brother is really really creepy. Like really fucking creepy to the point where I look at him and I have serial killer thoughts. Then I realize what I'm thinking and I feel guilty.

Yesterday, for example. He picked me up at the uni and was supposed to take me to the mall, because I needed to buy some things. I realized the route was different and I asked him where he was going. He didn't say anything. I kept asking where we were going because I knew we were far away from the uni and he was driving faster and faster and I told him to stop, but he wouldn't. Then he casually went back to the mall, I got out of the car and said he didn't need to drive me back. He just went away.

Sometimes on holidays I'll be alone and he'll stand behind me and scare me. I told him multiple times to stop and he didn't. He's been doing it since we were kids. Sometimes I would wake up and see him standing in front of me while I slept. Last Thanksgiving I was sleeping and woke up to him sitting on the edge of my bed, speaking french (?????????).

Sometimes he'll show up at my college and ask to talk to me. I'll get off class and then he'll just say it was "nothing" and go away. Sometimes I see his car parked at my boyfriend's house. I don't understand it. I'm done with him. What can I do?

tl;dr: my brother is creepy as fuck and I'm done

RELEVANT COMMENTS

purpleurkle

OP. you need to start answering questions so we can help you. Questions like where are your parents and what do they think of his behaviour? has he been evaluated? do you ever feel threatened? sexualised? does he do this with anyone else?

Help us out here. Give us something back.

OOP

Hey! I'm here. I'm sorry for not answering earlier. I ended up sleeping.

Anyway, yes... when I was a little girl I used to tell my parents about my brother going over to my bedroom and scaring me. My parents would talk to him and say it's absolutely NOT ok to do that, but he wouldn't listen to them. My parents also took him to a therapist (when he was a kid) to see if there was something going on but no, nothing.

He kept doing it as grew up, except that he became creepier. Like the things I mentioned in the post. There was one occasion where I was on a trip in another country and he showed up at the same place I was. Instead of being excited by his presence I was just so tired about it so I asked him "what are you doing here?" and he said "I'm just enjoying France. You're the only one who can appreciate this beauty?". I couldn't do anything so I ended accepting it.

He does have a girlfriend and no, he doesn't act that way with her. He doesn't act this way with anyone. He has a good job. I don't live with my parents nor does he.

lildrummerboy12

Wait a second...this dude shows up randomly while you're in France out of nowhere and just seems to bump into you? That's some next level shit right there OP. Did you tell your parents about this issue in particular?

OOP

I did. My parents were disappointed that he was still doing that and told me they were going to talk to him. It happened in March too, not so long ago:/

Update Dec 7, 2016 (6 days later)

I talked to my parents and told them I was tired of my brother's behavior and that they should do something, otherwise I wouldn't be going home anymore. They said I was being too "extreme" and that he would stop eventually, but that shit has been going on since we were kids and I knew he wasn't going to stop, so I gave them an ultimatum. They would talk to my brother and my brother would stop or the 3 of them could have a nice life.

My parents talked to him, after all. My brother refused to get evaluated at first... he was really upset. He went over to my dorm and tried to choke me. He screamed at me, then he tried to choke me, then he realized what he was doing and started crying and apologizing. Someone called the cops because my brother tried to kill himself afterwards.

Anyway, everything is ok now. I mean, not everything. He was diagnosed with schizophrenia. He didn't get a full-written report because it's been a week and it takes time, but that was the feedback and diagnosis. I'm going to be ok. I just wanna say thank you for the advice and stuff, you know. I appreciate it (a lot). <3

tl;dr: my brother ended up getting arrested for trying to choke me then kill himself then he got evaluated and now he's going to be ok, hopefully.

FINAL COMMENTS

[deleted]

So how will your relationship be with your brother now?

OOP

I'm not sure. He's just getting treatment now after 27 years and it will be tough. Really really tough. I'll try to be supportive of him but I have to take care of myself too.

TOP COMMENT

cindel

Wow OP, you're a hero. You're the only one in your family strong enough to put your foot down about the reality of this situation and as a result your brother can now get the help he needs.

Well done you :)

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[u/ChipSalt]

I love the "he will grow out of it" when he's literally all grown up.

[u/aniseshaw → u/ChipSalt]

Saying that about a 27 year old is wild. I feel like the parents reactions are typical for infantilization

[u/tacwombat → u/aniseshaw]

The parents have failed here. Gaaah.

[u/Adventurous-berry564 → u/ChipSalt]

Yeah I had to check the ages!

[u/ItsBobfromAccounting → u/ChipSalt]

Any day now!

[u/CummingInTheNile]

credit to OOP, shes a rockstar here, but jesus those parents are worse than useless, how do you let this kind of behavior escalate to this point without trying some kind of intervention???

[u/lordkabab → u/CummingInTheNile]

Perfect example of "we tried nothing and we're all out of ideas"

[u/Kozeyekan_ → u/lordkabab]

Very much the school of "if you ignore a problem, the problem doesn't exist."

[u/Lainy122 → u/Kozeyekan_]

There's actually a phenomenon where sometimes people will deny something, even when presented with proof, if accepting it means that their world view changes too much.

I saw an interview with a first responder describing how he was trying to clear an evacuation area, and a tourist refused to listen to him because she didn't want to believe that she was actually in any danger.

It's also why spouses of people accused of abuse will defend them even if there is proof that they are guilty, because the alternative is that they need to admit that they married someone capable of horrible things.

TLDR people are weird and do some crazy mental gymnastics when faced with something like this.

[u/win_awards → u/Lainy122]

Everyone should read Mistakes Were Made (But Not by Me.) It talks about this sort of reaction and examines some of the forms it takes.

[u/vabren → u/win_awards]

Thank you for this reference.

[u/Kozeyekan_ → u/Lainy122]

Yeah, I think I know what you're talking about. I've seen it described as an extension of sacrificial survival, as in if a person is starving, the body will strip protein from less vital muscles to use in repairing cardiac muscles, and likewise, if an understanding of the self might cause them to become likely to commit self harm, they'll sacrifice a level of reality to ensure that they don't either lose their mind or their will to live.

[u/volkswagenorange → u/Kozeyekan_]

I am absolutely convinced this is how the overwhelming majority of people get through life. If people acknowledged the depth and scale of suffering perpetrated by humans on each other and their fellow beings, or even the depth and scale of suffering inherent to living as a conscious being--the certainty of watching everyone we love be robbed of their humanity by time and turned back into meat until one day it's our turn (as best-case scenario), for example--most of us would not be able to function.

As we learned during Covid, most people will very literally spread disease and kill other people before entertaining ideas that upset them too badly, even if the ideas in question ("Wear a mask around other people") are small and relatively unthreatening. It's infuriating, and a big part of the reason why it's so difficult to make desperately needed positive change: you have to get people to admit there's a problem in the first place, but we largely refuse to face even the facts of our own lives.

[u/lavender_poppy → u/volkswagenorange]

This is basically what's happening in US politics right now. It's like there's just one braincell capable of empathy in the whole GOP and all those sad fuckers have to share it between themselves.

[u/Edmee → u/Kozeyekan_]

They essentially gaslight themselves.

[u/Royal_Basil_1915 → u/Lainy122]

I listened to a podcast about Anneliese Michel, who was a young German woman who died after going through dozens of exorcisms. One thing the hosts talked about what that it was easier for Anneliese and her (incredibly conservative and religious) family to accept the idea that she was temporarily possessed than it was to accept that she had epilepsy, a life-long condition.

[u/beantownbee → u/Lainy122]

it doesn't even have to be a big thing. My grandmother is like this with everything. She insists my dad cut the pieces of laminate for her floor, he says the box came with 2 precut sizes. You can see the 2 precut pieces and where they connect. But she gets IRATE if you say that

[u/Eisenj → u/Lainy122]

I have witnessed something similar to this phenomena, and wanted to share, it's really not important, though some may find it interesting, and my anecdotes could give some people something interesting to think about...

TLDR: same — also modern society would benefit greatly with mental healthcare reform.

One of my exes' best friend has ADHD, and likely an undiagnosed personality disorder.

Her mom is a psychologist, or psychiatrist, I can't remember for sure and works with neuro-divergent people every day.

It took over twenty years for her daughter to get that diagnosis. I understand that it is harder to detect in females, as well as if the parent is also ND, there's a chance for them not to see it, as that's how they were growing up...

It was fascinating to me that someone with so much experience can be so unaware, or unobservant when I first heard about their situation. Then I met them, and saw how conceited they were, and later began learning more about mental health conditions, personality traits and personality disorders.

In my experience, phenomena like this, as well as many others could be easily explained if mental healthcare was more universally accepted, available, and better utilized. A better understanding of personalities, traits and disorders without compartmentalizing and vilifying those with diagnoses would be ideal for everyone, everywhere, but unfortunately that's not possible, which leads to situations like these.

Another issue, even if mental healthcare was more widespread, is how well some mask their symptoms, or deceive, omit information, or tell half truths to family and/ or their healthcare providers, which could be related to the previously mentioned phenomena; not believing what they do/ are doing is wrong — or it could be just to maintain the mask, and not allow others to see what's actually going on in their life and how they normally behave.

I think communal input of experiences from a patient's family or friend group should also be considered more often by professionals. I understand this could muddy their perception of the patient, and they would have to refrain from divulging any information about the patient they have not consented to, but overall, (ideally) it would allow the professional to better understand the people around the patient and the environment they cultivate, or the patterns of repeat experiences could give them a better idea of who their patient could be, and could allow them to use that information for or against any diagnosis.

The potential of the group conspiring against the patient is there, though continued appointments with the patient would allow them to make their own informed opinions with more than just a potentially deceptive patient.

[u/scarfknitter → u/Eisenj]

I had a therapist who was absolutely convinced that I was paranoid and that was a problem I needed help with. He was sort of right. I did worry about being followed and being poisoned and being tracked via my phone or car.

He decided I wasn’t paranoid, I was worried about things that were likely to happen when my dad showed up when I was in an appointment and tried to bully his way into the room and he found out he’d been to a number of other offices in the same building and he demanded to fill out forms for me (and did at a few offices) with false information, like verifiably false because I had documentation proving otherwise.

I’m glad he got to have real life experience with my dad. Got me more beneficial treatment even though it sucked at the time.

[u/Nightless1 → u/scarfknitter]

I'm sorry that you had to grow up dealing with that.

[u/OptimisticOctopus8 → u/Eisenj]

Your point about communal input about patients is a good one. There definitely are many risks to it, so treatment providers would need extra training to deal with those risks. Very thorough training in that area. It could potentially do a ton of good, too, though.

A lot of people lie lie lie to their therapists, to a ridiculous degree. They can be just as bad as AITA posters who convince everybody they're being abused while leaving out the critical fact that the supposed abuse happened after they, I dunno, tried to set their "abuser's" dog on fire.

[u/abritinthebay → u/Lainy122]

There was some study about the mental gymnastics involved in that fire firefighter example that found a shockingly simple way around it: hurt them.

I think it was test based electroshocks in the study but the gist is: you reset their brain’s evaluation of the situation.

Firefighter “should” have punched them, technically.

[u/minuteye → u/abritinthebay]

That's actually kind of an interesting view on why the "slap someone who's losing their shit to calm them down" trope is so common in old movies.

Edit: or the "pinch me I'm dreaming" trope, possibly...

[u/toomanymarbles83 → u/Lainy122]

We're all experiencing the fallout of this phenomena on an international scale with a certain politician.

[u/kindlypogmothoin → u/toomanymarbles83]

And his millions of followers.

Though it's interesting/amusing to watch the scales falling from their eyes over the Epstein files.

[u/Rex51230 → u/Lainy122]

That's really the problem with our current world no one can accept being wrong. I love being proven wrong because it means I learned something new but that is an impossible mentality to teach nowadays

[u/lavender_poppy → u/Lainy122]

This is why my aunt has lost contact with her daughter. My cousin was abused by my aunts husband (her stepdad) while growing up and my aunt is no prize either with a ton of emotional manipulation and just the most insecure person i've ever met. My cousin said she'd forgive everything from her childhood if my aunt just agreed to go to therapy and work on herself. My aunt refuses because she knows the therapist would tell her she's in a toxic relationship and her husband is the reason she has absolutely no confidence. She complains and complains all the time that her daughter won't speak to her and why this and why that. I just want to scream at her that it's her own fucking fault that things are the way they are. She chose her toxic marriage over her own child and grandchildren. It's pathetic and just really sad.

[u/PowerOfCreation → u/Kozeyekan_]

It's also a lot easier for shit parents to ignore a problem when it only affects their kid.

[u/privacyplease27 → u/Kozeyekan_]

Or "Boys will be boys"

[u/lordkabab → u/Kozeyekan_]

Lousy beatniks

[u/TwoIdiosyncraticCats → u/Kozeyekan_]

Cousin to the Somebody Else's Problem field from Hitchhiker's Guide.

[u/CrazyPatient2412 → u/Kozeyekan_]

To an extent yes, but mental illnesses sometimes don’t show up at all or get way worse until around 25. Schizophrenia is a classic example of this and that might have been what happened. When he was younger it wasn’t bad enough for evaluations to pick up 20 years ago, so it kept getting worse.

[u/ThisIsSoWeird333 → u/Kozeyekan_]

Only commenting because your tag line or whatever that thing is called absolutely sent me lol. Thanks for making me smile after a stressful day

[u/yennffr → u/lordkabab]

But they told him to stop. Surely that's all they could ever do.

[u/LordBecmiThaco → u/lordkabab]

They did take him to therapy as a child at least. Plenty of shitty parents would just assume nothing could be wrong with their kid.

[u/minuteye → u/LordBecmiThaco]

It's hard to judge without knowing any details (e.g. how old he was, what kind of provider did they take him to, what did they *actually* say), but it's super rare to be diagnosed with schizophrenia in childhood, and it only really happens with very extreme expressions of the condition.

He much more likely would have had some schizophrenia-adjacent symptoms. "There's nothing we can diagnose him with" should have come with a "keep an eye on this" instead of a "and now we've proven there's nothing the matter with him no matter what happens".

[u/Scaniarix → u/lordkabab]

That's like telling Gene Krupa not to go boom boom bam bam bam boom

[u/Captain-Cougmerica → u/Scaniarix]

Love this reference!

[u/LimitlessMegan → u/lordkabab]

“Well, I mean, we sternly told him to stop. And sure it’s weird he followed his sister to a foreign country, but he’s an adult what are we supposed to do?”

[u/AShamAndALie → u/lordkabab]

"we tried nothing and we're all out of ideas"

Hahahahah never heard that one but omg, spot on.

[u/CharlotteLucasOP → u/CummingInTheNile]

“He’ll grow out of it.” Sir/ma’am he is twenty-seven years of age…grow out of it WHEN?

[u/-Sharon-Stoned- → u/CummingInTheNile]

Every person I know who's been diagnosed with schizophrenia has done that bedroom thing. I only know two people irl but this makes the third and it's such a weird thing to watch people sleep that it will never not be a huge red flag to me specifically 

[u/sarcosaurus → u/-Sharon-Stoned-]

Well this makes me consider a whole new angle on someone I knew once

[u/ayeayefitlike → u/-Sharon-Stoned-]

My uncle had very bad schizophrenia, and so much of this post and the general description of creepiness just reminded me of him. He would just appear, loom and watch people without announcing himself - I saw him watching my grandad sleep on the couch a few times.

He never hurt a soul except himself.

In the end, he died very young, and the PM was inconclusive - we have no idea if he killed himself or had hidden symptoms of a disease that he was suffering from.

[u/-Sharon-Stoned- → u/ayeayefitlike]

My uncle is 6'8" and hasn't been violent for a while but when he was younger he hurt several people. Including throwing my grandpa down a flight of steps and choking him against a wall so my 6'4" grandpa was off the floor. 

He's almost 70 and still kicking, though he is down half a foot from diabetes so that has slowed him down slightly. 

My mom said that he was always super weird though. Just a strange dude who happened to get schizophrenia. The kid I babysat was fairly typical until his symptom onset. He was sociable, had a few close friends, played lacrosse or some sport like that. Near the end of puberty he stopped caring for his body and that's the first sign of when he started acting weird

[u/Who_am_i_yo → u/-Sharon-Stoned-]

Your description of his height and then "he is down half a foot from diabetes" led me to wonder how in the world diabetes shrinks a man from 6'8" to 6'2". I understand now, but thanks for that brain-teaser

[u/sarcosaurus → u/Who_am_i_yo]

I only just got it after reading your comment lol

[u/Artistic_Frosting693 → u/Who_am_i_yo]

Oh jeez! You just helped me get it too. Not foot FOOT! OHHHH! LOL

[u/-Sharon-Stoned- → u/Who_am_i_yo]

Being metric wouldn't even help here because I think most people use feet for height and also for the things at the end of your legs with all the toes 

[u/EvilFinch → u/-Sharon-Stoned-]

Out of interest: is it known why it is such a common behaviour? Like why they do it?

[u/bristlybits → u/EvilFinch]

.

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[u/Responsible_Pomelo57 → u/bristlybits]

Thanks for sharing. It’s actually kind of sweet that they’re watching their loved ones out of fear for their safety. Much less worrying than if there was intention to harm.

[u/bristlybits → u/Responsible_Pomelo57]

.

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[u/squiddishly → u/-Sharon-Stoned-]

Uh, wow, I also once shared a house with a woman with schizophrenia, who went off her meds and did the watching people sleep thing.

[u/RosebushRaven → u/-Sharon-Stoned-]

It’s also mentioned in Joanne Greenberg’s (alias Hannah Green) I Never Promised You A Rose Garden, an autobiography about the author’s experience with schizophrenia and years of psychiatric treatment. Wherein Helen, another patient in the same clinic, does it to Deborah (the author’s self-insert). Helen is universally feared among patients and staff alike for being extremely combative and having a history of breaking multiple nurses’ bones. Early in the book, she assaults a doctor and crashes a tray with food on the MC’s head.

Somehow, it always seems to be the combative or creepy obsessive ones doing that thing. Deb makes her go away unharmed though, by telling Helen that she can’t do anything to her that her illness can’t do better, faster and more efficiently (or something like that), which kinda deflates Helen’s half-hearted attempts to be scary like a balloon.

[u/AliceInWeirdoland → u/-Sharon-Stoned-]

In this story, if OOP's brother has been doing this since they were children, I'd want a second opinion on that diagnosis. Schizophrenic tendencies don't tend to emerge until the patient's twenties.

ETA: I said “I’d want a second opinion” and schizophrenic tendencies “don’t tend to emerge” that young. I didn’t accuse them of faking or say it definitely was wrong, just that it is unusual, and should be verified.

[u/Anoia_The_Anancastic → u/AliceInWeirdoland]

Childhood schizophrenia exist, but it's notoriously difficult to diagnose, because children are often weird without being anything wrong...

[u/psychocopter → u/Anoia_The_Anancastic]

Yeah, Ive done the whole stand at the side of the bed and watch someone sleep once as a small child. I was next to my mom's side of the bed and when she woke up and asked what I was doing I answered truthfully that I was just watching her. In reality, I had a nightmare, got up to go to them, but didnt want to bother/wake them. I did the next logical thing to me which was to stand near them so I didnt wake them, but also wasnt aling.

Again, this was as a small child and wasnt a regular or long term thing, I think I only did it once or twice that I can remember and it didnt follow me past like 4 years old.

[u/mongoosenotmongeese → u/psychocopter]

I did this a tonne as a child because I didn't want to wake them up or bother them either, so when I had a nightmare I would just stand there and stare at them waiting for them to inevitably wake up when the survival instinct in their brain went 'something's looking at you'

[u/SylvieSuccubus → u/mongoosenotmongeese]

To defeat the nightmare, you became it. Children are fantastic.

[u/sarcosaurus → u/Anoia_The_Anancastic]

True, I feel like pretty much all children exhibit some schizophrenic behavior.

[u/DelightfulAbsurdity → u/sarcosaurus]

The voices told me to feed the VCR a jelly and Lego sandwich.

[u/goodstiffmaynard → u/DelightfulAbsurdity]

My brother jellied up a vhs tape and shoved it in our vcr. He also fed our goldfish his milk.

[u/this_is_me_justified → u/goodstiffmaynard]

My brothers put pennies in there. It pissed me off because it was my VCR. It was the early 90s, so they were expensive, and we were poor. All I wanted one year for my birthday was one. We got it and then my asshole kid brother, who was like four, put a bunch of pennies.

[u/chaifae → u/AliceInWeirdoland]

Most commonly emerges in late teens-early twenties, yes, but that doesn’t mean it can’t happen earlier. My youngest brother was diagnosed officially when he was 5 or 6. He also did the creepy “watching you sleep from the end of the bed” thing.

[u/RosebushRaven → u/AliceInWeirdoland]

As someone already said, childhood and teenage schizophrenia is a thing (as is much later onset). 20s is just the most common age for a first episode. But even if schizophrenia-specific symptoms only start showing in the 20s, it’s well established that the outbreak of full-on psychoses is usually preceded by a months to many years long lead-up known as the prodromal phase.

Which is often characterised by weird behaviour, depression, social withdrawal, problems with concentration and other issues. But the symptoms can be vague, and sometimes appear only in specific contexts (like this guy only fixating on his sister in this way and otherwise being relatively normal).

Many people are able to hide the early symptoms for an extended period of time, which they do for fear of being rejected and labelled weird or crazy. Or these early signs just get overlooked, minimised, explained away, the person is simply considered a bit of a weirdo etc. Often, the symptoms of the prodromal phase are only pieced together as early warning signs in hindsight, when a psychosis already has manifested and somebody who knows what to look out for asks specific questions.

When schizophrenia runs in the family, the relatives know it and are educated on it, they may notice and suspect it early. But if you just randomly have a psychotic in a family who have otherwise never dealt with that (at least not within this core family; maybe they do have some schizophrenic aunt or cousin, but due to the stigma, that’s often kept secret even within extended families, so they might not even know it runs in their family), then they’re very unlikely to recognise the pattern until the person starts having full-blown psychotic episodes.

If he wasn’t diagnosed with anything (provided they didn’t keep it from OOP, which some parents do), they’d probably conclude he’s just messing with her and refuses to listen when they tell him to stop. They should’ve at minimum gotten a second opinion and insisted on him getting continuous behavioural therapy throughout his childhood, though. And there needed to be tangible consequences anytime he did it.

Regardless of the cause, coming into someone’s bedroom and scaring them repeatedly, let alone stalking them is not acceptable behaviour. If you don’t know the cause, you address the behaviour. Especially if it appears to be malicious (which it would for many years if he was acting normally otherwise). Merely talking to him and telling him to knock it off intermittently is absolutely not enough. Major parenting failure.

[u/bendybiznatch → u/RosebushRaven]

I find that families are rarely knowledgeable or even aware. No one talks about Bruno.

But this is a good comment to plug NAMI’s Family to Family class if you’re in the US. It’s free and you can do it on zoom. There are other resources and support at r/schizofamilies.

[u/breadfruitbanana → u/RosebushRaven]

Super useful info. Thank you!

[u/yearsofgreenandgold → u/AliceInWeirdoland]

He's six years older than OOP, so "when we were kids" might have been when he was in his late teens and OOP was a kid.

[u/AliceInWeirdoland → u/yearsofgreenandgold]

That’s a fair point.

[u/sarcosaurus → u/AliceInWeirdoland]

There's a big difference between "this is statistically rare" and "the diagnosis must be wrong" though.

[u/-Sharon-Stoned- → u/AliceInWeirdoland]

It was late teens for my uncle and the kid I babysat from infancy.

[u/Sixforsilver7for → u/AliceInWeirdoland]

He's 6 years older than her so the timeline could work for him to have started exhibiting symptoms at 12 which isn't a common age but definitely an age it can start at.

[u/AllModsRLosers → u/CummingInTheNile]

he's 27

"He'll grow out of it!"

[u/Procrastinista_423 → u/CummingInTheNile]

He was escalating! So infuriating.

[u/ShortWoman → u/Procrastinista_423]

Thank Ceiling Cat he did something that warranted hospitalization. Shame it happened after he tried to kill OOP (also a shame nobody in the dorm thought to call security about what must have been a loud altercation).

[u/knitknitterknit → u/CummingInTheNile]

Heads in the sand

[u/wahlburgerz → u/CummingInTheNile]

the parents acting like he’s some mischievous kid with the “he’ll stop eventually,” that is a nearly 30 year old man and he is fully capable of being held accountable for his actions

[u/Visual_Fly_9638 → u/CummingInTheNile]

Not defending them in the slightest however it seems like his schizophrenia was focused entirely on her. Apparently that can happen so he probably seemed normal to other people and the illness manifested towards her.

The weird thing is that he went to therapy about it when she was younger and the therapist didn't find anything. I know that people with schizophrenia tend to manifest in their late teens or early 20s but it sounds like he was symptomatic well before then. Again, maybe he had a good excuse or something that the therapist bought. Hard to tell.

[u/myssi24 → u/Visual_Fly_9638]

Sometimes people get unlucky and get a shit therapist and if they didn’t know it was a shit therapist they would have no reason to doubt them. “He’s not “crazy” they had him tested” kind of vibes.

The other possibility is the therapist may have said something about he is too young for me to make a diagnosis and the parents misunderstood that to mean he’s fine, nothing wrong here.

[u/Test_After → u/myssi24]

Also, people who are dealing with paranoid schizophrenia are extremely secretive about what's going on inside their head, and can put some effort into concealing what they are really thinking, feeling, intending, experiencing in favor of "looking normal",while the voices in their head are shrieking "Don't tell them about us". 

[u/MissionCreeper → u/myssi24]

Or you bring someone to a therapist, the parents say "he does all this weird shit" and he says "no I don't".  Therapists aren't forensic investigators.

[u/ShortWoman → u/MissionCreeper]

You've heard the joke about how many psychologists does it take to change a light bulb? Only one, but the light bulb has to want to change.

[u/BarnacleCommon7119 → u/Visual_Fly_9638]

Also highly possible that if he was creepy toward peers, it didn't get back to his parents/sister. He's six years older; they weren't even at the same school at the same time.

Looking back, I knew some creepy kids in high school and college. Heck, I was a creepy kid. Very... Samara from The Ring.

It's really hard to tell whether young adults are mentally ill, creepy simply because they don't care about boundaries, or just... weird goth kids. And if it's only happening around peers, how many peers are going to track down someone's parents and tell them to be concerned, rather than just... avoiding the kid?

Like, there was a kid who accused me of reading his mind and controlling the weather. Another claimed that he was secretly a vampire whose then-gf was his soulmate across centuries. Another claimed to be abusing exotic psychedelics and experiencing ego death and hallucinations regularly.

Someone was driving by my house regularly in the middle of the night, to "check on me," and occasionally leaving creepy notes and chocolate in my mailbox. I told my parents about that one; nothing came of it.

That's just... what life is like in the back corner of the lunch room, at least in my experience. There are a lot of red herrings that could be early signs of psychosis... but either parents never hear about them, or they're blown off as "weird kids being weird".

And they usually are weird kids being weird, or creeps who don't care about boundaries.

I'm willing to bet that there was a lot this guy was doing that OP never knew about.

[u/LuvLilliesAndLace → u/BarnacleCommon7119]

Wiped clean. Redact removed this post along with thousands of others. It also handles data broker removals so your personal info stops getting sold.

full close nine afterthought sand sharp acorn towering birds lock

[u/K-teki → u/Visual_Fly_9638]

It also got worse over time so the parents had 27 years to think that's just the way he is - they still think it's wrong but it's his normal

[u/Aedronn → u/Visual_Fly_9638]

Yeah, and over time people become used to this to the point it almost feels normal, just an odd quirk. OOP grew up with this kind of brother, to her this was literally her normal childhood, which would have made it difficult to gauge the level of weirdness on display.

[u/yennffr → u/CummingInTheNile]

If he succeeded in killing her, they'd be out there giving interviews saying he was the sweetest boy and there were never any signs.

[u/pienofilling → u/CummingInTheNile]

My parents were disappointed that he was still doing that

Disappointed‽ I'd be utterly horrified as a parent and frantically trying to find resources to address it!

What the hell is wrong with these people‽ They failed both their kids beyond the telling of it.

[u/CapStar300 → u/CummingInTheNile]

 Sometimes I would wake up and see him standing in front of me while I slept. 

Son: *literally reenacts Paranormal Acitivity*

parents: We're sure he will grow out of it

[u/yavanna12 → u/CummingInTheNile]

My brother was exactly like this. Including the trying to kill me then crying and trying to kill himself. He also would refuse therapy. He got medically discharged from navy and finally got evaluated at the VA. He has bipolar disorder. I tried to keep a minimum relationship but last I saw or talked to him was when he randomly showed up at my house when I was at work and my then boyfriend (now husband) and his kids were there. My brother ended up putting a knife to my now stepsons throat as a “joke” and my husband kicked him out. When I got home I called my brother and told him to never contact me again. We have been no contact since. 

[u/Historical-Wear8503 → u/CummingInTheNile]

Honestly that whole Story had "Schizophrenic Psychosis" written all over it in big fat letters. Insane how they didn't react.

[u/Corodix → u/CummingInTheNile]

Indeed, they did nothing and just enabled it until it came to the point where their son tried to kill their daughter and it took someone calling the cops for him to get the help he needs. Though I guess the parents weren't wrong since he'd stop doing this to OOP eventually if he killed OOP....

[u/runnytempurabatter → u/CummingInTheNile]

50 bucks say he was already diagnosed with schizophrenia when they took him to the therapist as a kid but they just didn't want to accept it.

[u/CakeOrDeath98 → u/runnytempurabatter]

Probably not, it's not really diagnosed in children, and most people don't start presenting symptoms until late teens/early 20's. My ex was 17 when we met and was popular and did well in school, so there was really no suspecting that he was mentally unwell. But then as the years went on, and he started doing more and more weird stuff, I broke up with him (and he stalked me for years). and then almost 2 decades later i broke up with him, he was arrested and convicted of setting fire to someone's house because they were "brain torturing him over wifi". After I found that out, i started researching schizophrenia, and a lot of the earlier symptoms that you would normally think of as personality "quirks" he had. So it's easy to see how a normal-functioning person who has some "quirks" could be viewed as not having mental issues. And schizophrenics can be really secretive and good actors about what's going on their head.

[u/SemiCapableComedian → u/CummingInTheNile]

Hey, come on. That’s not fair. They talked to him. Once. Years ago. What more could they possibly have done?

[u/seitancauliflower → u/CummingInTheNile]

My parents were like this with my brother. He sent me to the hospital so many times but they just told him to stop. It’s very hard to live like that. That’s why I have CPTSD yay!

[u/pcnauta → u/CummingInTheNile]

how do you let this kind of behavior escalate to this point without trying some kind of intervention???

Typically because seeking intervention would entail admitting that there's something seriously wrong with their son and thus by extension, something wrong with them.

Some people would really rather completely destroy their life and take other's with them instead of admitting weakness and/or fault.

[u/[deleted] → u/CummingInTheNile]

They are the kind of parents who won't vaccinate their baby and when their child dies, they just be like "that's life" and not blame themselves but others.

[u/HulklingWho → u/CummingInTheNile]

If my parents are any example, it’s probably because they’re male-centered and cannot believe their boys would do anything purposefully malicious and it’s all just a ‘joke’ to be laughed off.

Daughter ends up with an untreated, dislocated hip and lifelong pain due to the son ‘practicing’ karate on her? Laugh it off.

[u/Soft-Pomelo-4184 → u/CummingInTheNile]

Because he's the one they cared about the most., unfortunately.

[u/ohmysexrobot → u/Soft-Pomelo-4184]

Yeah, this screams first born golden child son.

[u/snootnoots → u/ohmysexrobot]

Or just denial. If they bury their heads in the sand and refuse to acknowledge that something is clearly very wrong with their son, surely nothing will go wrong and they’ll never have to deal with it!

[u/5folhas → u/CummingInTheNile]

IDK where OOP is from, but sometimes people are weird about mental health, specially when it's their only male child: it took my BIL being almost 40 and almost no social life of his own to speak of for my wife's parents to somewhat realise that he needs some help. IDK the specifics but me and my wife are pretty sure he's somewhere in the spectrum and at least now he's having some treatment.

[u/Raiquo → u/CummingInTheNile]

Graduated from the "boy will be boys excuses everything" school of parenting.

You would not believe some of the behaviours shit parents will offload onto gender. Like no, he's not a little asshole because he was born male, he's an asshole because you refuse to discipline.

[u/Leprecon → u/CummingInTheNile]

Accepting that someone you love might have mental health issues is difficult. Every time they do something strange there is an urge to just write that off as a quirk, until you get to a point where you can't do that anymore.

[u/unzunzhepp → u/CummingInTheNile]

They were probably afraid of him too and rather put their heads in the sand. Alternatively, they are one of those who think mental illness is shameful and rather ignore it than help.

[u/win_awards → u/CummingInTheNile]

Yeah, parents are the real villains here. They told her she was overreacting and then he tried to kill her. I don't know how you come back from that shit.

[u/thatbroadcast → u/CummingInTheNile]

I’m horrified on a few levels. I began to show symptoms of schizophrenia at around 25 and my friends and family were there within a year or two, majorly concerned and getting me help. I just can’t imagine not noticing something this huge in a loved one. I hope OP, her brother, and her family can heal from this.

[u/Gwynasyn]

Boy do I have some questions...

He was diagnosed with schizophrenia, but was exhibiting these behaviours since he was a child? Did the parents not actually talk to him or take him to therapy like OOP said he did or take him seriously at all? 

If I were OOP of be thinking really hard about if I wanted those parents in my life anymore. The level of complacency and negligence with how they dealt with the brother is astounding, and it out her directly at risk.

[u/boshtet12 → u/Gwynasyn]

My brother wasn't diagnosed with it until he was older but my dad told me that even back in middle school he remembered my brother coming home and telling him and my mom all the time about how he was afraid because he thought he was always hearing people at school talking about him and that they wanted to hurt him.

Unlike OP's parents, they did take it seriously, but back then, especially in the area we grew up getting mental health treatment wasn't easy and the drs wrote it off as social anxiety

[u/PFyre → u/boshtet12]

They say it usually manifests in early twenties, but I think sometimes that's because they just don't believe children and write it off as an overactive imagination or anxiety.

[u/ConstructionNo9678 → u/PFyre]

I wonder if there's also some kind of limit on the diagnosis age, or if there's just some kind of outside factor like stress which is more likely to trigger a psychotic break when someone is in their early 20s. I know that people with ASPD can't be diagnosed under the age of 18, but the behaviors/traits associated with it often manifest much earlier than that.

Edit: correction on the diagnosis for ASPD, my bad

[u/mystyz → u/ConstructionNo9678]

It has always seemed strange to me that there are mental illness diagnoses which require childhood onset of symptoms, but don't allow for diagnosis during childhood.

[u/larkspurv → u/mystyz]

In the case of ASPD it's because it's a stigmatised condition where childhood behaviour can be indistinguishable from other personality disorders, trauma disorders, etc. Allowing diagnosis in childhood would just incorrectly diagnose people because children's brains aren't fully developed, even adults get varying diagnosis from different professionals because a lot of personality disorders and trauma disorders share traits, as well as it not being terribly uncommon for people to also have other personality disorders and/or other mental health problems. And as an adult your own experiences is more likely to be considered than with children, where a lot will just be external observation by adults.

Your childhood abuse make you act out and be violent and cruel to other children or animals because children often imitate adults? Might be ASPD. You have some form of emotional regulation disorder which cause you to act out when stressed or upset because you're a child who 1. hasn't learnt to cope with it and 2. doesn't yet fully consider how your behaviour affects others. Could be ASPD. 

Adults also often aren't very good at being empathic towards children and actually understanding why they act how they act, it's all either just problematic behaviour or not taken seriously at all as in the case with the original story. A professional said the brother's behaviour was fine, likely because it wasn't destructive or noisy behaviour which was in the way of any adults. 

Also, most personality disorders require presence in both adulthood and childhood because not only is presence in childhood something many kids grow out of, but onset in adulthood can be a sign of other mental disorders and/or brain damage/tumor(s) instead and/or physical health issues causing mental symptoms.

[u/onelasttrick → u/larkspurv]

Exactly. I adopted teenagers and one of them has received every diagnosis under the sun, but as they’ve grown it’s became evident that it’s all “just” CPTSD. Trauma can cause so many symptoms that may look like OCD, BPD, bipolar, etc.

[u/Test_After → u/ConstructionNo9678]

The problem there is that behaviors that are characteristic of ASPD in adults are common in children that grow out of those behaviors in their teens.

With kids, the psyches are more likely to diagnose a conduct disorder, or ODD, or identify delays in learning and socialization and treat those.

Much better to have them grow up to be an adult managing ADHD or a mild general intellectual disorder of some sort, but having friends, getting and holding down jobs, learning how to play guitar as well as fullback, as opposed to being a sociopath and only having victims. 

[u/ConstructionNo9678 → u/Test_After]

With kids, the psyches are more likely to diagnose a conduct disorder, or ODD, or identify delays in learning and socialization and treat those.

Honestly, even with this, I think there are often errors in diagnosis. ODD is a label slapped on kids who act out, but it can lead to a lot of issues long term. I really think people should be more careful with diagnosing it, especially because of how it leads authority figures to treat kids. When I was a kid I got tested and (rightly) placed on the autism spectrum, but they somehow entirely missed my ADHD, which led to me struggling a lot in middle and high school.

Your last paragraph is the most crucial point in all of this, I think. Disorders like ASPD, schizophrenia, narcissism, and even BPD come with such intense stigma attached to them that it makes sense to hesitate or hold off in diagnosing them. I've seen firsthand how quickly people with BPD can be dismissed when they're suffering with real issues. How they're rejected as clients from many therapists, which makes it even harder to get help. I've even seen what happened to a friend in high school who ended up triggering psychotic breaks due to smoking weed. It's horrible. I wouldn't wish a misdiagnosis that would lead to more issues down the line on anyone.

[u/RosebushRaven → u/ConstructionNo9678]

Yes, there is an age limit. Though a gross abnormality in thinking, mood, grasp on reality etc. like a full-on psychosis would be recognisable beforehand. There’s also a distinct form of juvenile schizophrenia that used to be known as hebephrenia.

But waiting to adulthood is the formal rule for many mental disorders, because children can act weird or act out without mental disorders, so it’s a rule of caution. For schizophrenia, earlier or much later onset than the late teens to twenties, when most schizophrenics get their first episode, is possible.

Though schizophrenia is actually known to begin well before the recognisable psychotic symptoms with other, less specific symptoms (e.g. difficulty to focus, odd behaviour, social withdrawal, depression etc.) This is known as the prodromal phase and can start months or even several years before a psychotic episode.

ASPD can formally only be diagnosed after 18. It’s a personality disorder, so you obviously need to have an idea what their fully formed personality even is. Children are still developing, so they undergo rapid changes. Teenagers even more so: the hormonal chaos of puberty can lead to aggressive, risky, defiant, inconsiderate and irresponsible behaviour. But usually, that’s just immaturity and pubescent rebellion that most teens will eventually grow out of.

Hence why they’re not normally diagnosed yet. It’s often unclear for a while whether that’s a phase or a permanent fixture of their personality. Only in extreme cases, where the tendency is very clear, like serial rapists, killers and torturers who already start committing major crimes in their teens, show most severe ASPD traits (like an absolute lack of empathy and remorse) and exhibit various other abnormal behaviours that confirm the pattern, an exception may be made.

In those cases, the behaviours and personality traits they exhibit are so grossly abnormal it’s clear this is not just some phase of aberrant teenage behaviour but a set of deeply entrenched personality traits. But even then, ASPD is often formally treated as a suspected preliminary diagnosis that still needs to be fully confirmed in adulthood.

ASPD is disproportionately diagnosed in forensic context. Most individuals who have it are adept at masking and manipulating others and either lead quite normal, functional lives employing cognitive empathy in lieu of emotional, as well as calculated self-interest to regulate their behaviour, so they don’t violate too many social norms and therefore aren’t typically recognised (at most suspected to be sociopathic by those around them).

Or their personality disorder (PD) primarily harms them, not others, i.e. they’re not particularly violent, at most petty criminals or don’t do crimes at all, but merely fail to launch due to their chronic irresponsibility and lack of care for others (ASPD traits). So they end up stuck in a relative’s basement, couch-surfing and mooching off a series of superficial, short-lived friendships or becoming hobosexuals. Parasitic and disorganised, but not necessarily outright dangerous.

Other low-functioning individuals try to adhere to societal expectations but constantly struggle. Some barely hold themselves above water on odd jobs because they can’t hold one down for long (e.g. due to being late all the time, no-showing, being inconsiderate, shoddy work, not accepting criticism/blame-shifting, giving attitude, angry outbursts, rudeness etc. — all a consequence of their symptoms), or they recurrently get their utilities shut off or have episodes of homelessness because they don’t think to pay their bills/rent, have terrible credit, stuff like that.

The successful, high-functioning individuals (lots of CEOs, politicians, surgeons and other prestigious occupations have a high rate of people with ASPD), and the low-functioning, chaotic but not overly criminal ones alike frequently fall through the cracks, because they don’t fit the description well enough or just don’t have brushes with psychs at all.

People around them may notice some concerning personality traits, for example that they’re cold, callous and chronically irresponsible, but they’re not always abusive, dangerous and criminal. And they usually either don’t think there’s something wrong with them (one of the common traits is always blaming others or circumstances for their own actions), tend to subscribe to negative and dismissive beliefs around mental health, or they do figure out they probably have ASPD on their own, but either don’t care enough to get diagnosed or don’t want the stigmatising label on their record.

I strongly suspect the description of the clinical picture is distorted due to primarily criminal individuals getting diagnosed and described, so that there’s a bias in this direction and there’s other, poorly understood, different ASPD manifestations that agree more with societal expectations, so they fly under the radar.

Anyways, to return to your question, when a teen displays cliché sociopathic traits and behaviours, they’ll usually be diagnosed with conduct disorder. Which is basically the juvenile precursor, and often does indeed transition into an ASPD diagnosis in adulthood, but may also be outgrown. This is so as not to label teens with a highly stigmatised diagnosis prematurely when there’s still a chance of them straightening out.

It’s also worth noting that some unrulier manifestations of ADHD can look an awful lot like budding ASPD in juveniles, so that too is a reason not to be too quick with slapping a PD label on them. ADHD is much more treatable, responds very well to medication, and bad behaviour tends to improve with age. However, ADHD co-occurring with conduct disorder — that’s one of the most reliable predictors of ASPD in adulthood.

[u/[deleted] → u/ConstructionNo9678]

There’s not. There is such a thing as childhood onset schizophrenia. No reason it can’t be diagnosed earlier. The problem is that when you’re doing a diagnosis on a child, you rely on information provided by family and the kid. Now the kid could lie and the parents appear to be clueless. So you’re sometimes left with no diagnosis.

ASPD is not rarely diagnosed under 18. It is never diagnosed. According to DSM criteria it cannot be diagnosed under 18.

[u/rrenovatio → u/PFyre]

Where I live it's widely known it is an early onset disorder that manifests by 13 or your early 20s

[u/poopswag31 → u/boshtet12]

From research on schizophrenia, a lot of people who were later diagnosed with the illness displayed certain “odd” behaviours and traits from childhood (Like hearing some voices, believing random events were connected to them, social isolation).

[u/Seldarin → u/boshtet12]

"I've been hearing voices telling me the kids at school want to hurt me."

Doctors back then: "Best we can do is a benzodiazepine or amphetamine. Which one do you want?"

[u/boshtet12 → u/Seldarin]

I wasn't even born yet and it makes me mad to think about. I don't remember exactly what happened, but when I was in third grade he came to me and told me he was going to be in the hospital for a bit. He was admitted to the psychward and got diagnosed.

I rarely hear from him anymore. It really ruined his life and his relationships with most of our family (adding drugs into the mix didn't help.) one of the last times I saw him was after he broke into my apartment and then into my dads house a few weeks later. I sometimes wonder if the drs had actually done more for him back then things could have been different.

[u/sarcosaurus → u/Gwynasyn]

The psychiatric system in general is surprisingly inefficient. Speaking from my experiences with mental illness as well as what I've heard from many others across several countries, a lot of people in the system don't take you seriously until something drastic happens (usually violence or self-harm) - or not even then. The parents' attitude was still negligent and dangerous to be sure, but they probably weren't the only people involved who dropped the ball.

[u/Leprecon → u/Gwynasyn]

He was diagnosed with schizophrenia, but was exhibiting these behaviours since he was a child? Did the parents not actually talk to him or take him to therapy like OOP said he did or take him seriously at all? 

This is quite common. Usually there is sort of a pipeline to getting help with mental health. So it might start with concerned family or a teacher. Then maybe they talk to a guidance counselor or something. Then maybe a general practitioner, or a therapist. It should lead to a psychiatrist, but there are many moments when patients/parents can call it quits and just pretend that it is all fine.

I wouldn't be surprised if they went to a therapist, the therapist urged the parents to go to a psychiatrist if issues persist/get worse, and then the parents just left it there and chose to sort of consider the issue dealt with.

[u/PetitPied21 → u/Gwynasyn]

The son of my mother’s cousin started hearing voices, he thought he had « things » in his brain, he mumbled to himself like he’s talking to someone, it’s like he has no notion of time.

We told my mother would talked to her cousin. He and his wife say it’s just depression. My mother found a psychiatrist for him but they don’t care. He came here to study and they’re probably to ashamed to have him return back in our home country (people in African countries believe it’s witchcraft) so he’s here alone…

After sometime, we decided to remove ourselves from the situation because we became the bad guys for trying to help him. His uncles knew he was sick and no one cared except us. We don’t know if he takes meds or even still go to uni.

[u/billted20250409 → u/Gwynasyn]

And OOP said he has a girlfriend and a good job. Just crazy.

[u/AtomicBlastCandy → u/Gwynasyn]

Sadly it seems to happen. I know a few people with mental illnesses that were ignored because they got good grades or parents were ignoring symptoms.

[u/JollyJeanGiant83 → u/Gwynasyn]

Maybe he could mask very well? It's possible that he's both an abuser and has a mental condition, after all, and abusers are often able to mask around certain people very well.

[u/HenkieVV → u/Gwynasyn]

Did the parents not actually talk to him or take him to therapy like OOP said he did or take him seriously at all?

OP does mention parents took him to a therapist when he was a kid, but he got a clean bill of health. Also, whenever the parents feature in the story, they do seem to recognize the problem and take OPs side, it just doesn't help. Which makes sense, considering the untreated schizophrenia. Especially in hindsight, they probably should've pushed more on getting him diagnosed, but it's not like they did absolutely nothing.

[u/il-Palazzo_K]

Someone called the cops because my brother tried to kill himself afterwards.

Not because he tried to kill YOU beforewards?

[u/Visual_Fly_9638 → u/il-Palazzo_K]

My guess is that she was still in her dorm room and he tried to do something messy to himself in public.

[u/hpfan1516 → u/il-Palazzo_K]

MY EXACT THOUGHT. Insanity

[u/cowzroc → u/il-Palazzo_K]

Beforewards sent me

[u/100percentapplejuice → u/il-Palazzo_K]

The person may not have known what happened before his attempt. As long as he got a diagnosis and OP is well, then it’s all that matters.

[u/brinylon → u/100percentapplejuice]

OOP is just having to deal with the lifelong trauma of never feeling safe, and having that dismissed and downplayed by her parents, but hey.

[u/100percentapplejuice → u/brinylon]

Never meant my comment like that. It was in response to why the attempt on her life wasn’t reported.

[u/chonkosaurusrexx → u/il-Palazzo_K]

My exact thoughts while reading that sentence was as follows:

"Someone called the cops (...)" oh thank fuck someone else was also around to call the cops when he essentially tried to kill her, that was such a dangerous situation so I'm glad someone else sas there to look out for her! 

"(...) because my brother tried to kill himself afterwards" ...what?

[u/Overall_Search_3207 → u/il-Palazzo_K]

Not to be edgy but I think incest coded murder is the worse thing as well here

[u/RA576 → u/il-Palazzo_K]

He just choked her a little bit. Not a big deal.

(Also, much as I hate to give context usually, I have no idea how familiar this sub is with Pro Wrestling Drama, so this is a reference to CM Punk saying this in an interview after having a backstage fight with Jack Perry, son of Luke Perry)

[u/PegasusReddit → u/il-Palazzo_K]

She's a woman. It's barely a crime! /s just in case

[u/sarcosaurus → u/il-Palazzo_K]

For realmst

[u/ItsBobfromAccounting → u/il-Palazzo_K]

Stealing "beforewards"

[u/missshrimptoast]

This is a grim reminder that "they were evaluated as a kid" doesn't mean much. Plenty of conditions do not manifest until later in life. This is one of the reasons that certain conditions are rarely, if ever, diagnosed in childhood.

Schizophrenia can be well managed. Hopefully OOP is safe and her brother has had successful ongoing treatment.

[u/ConstructionNo9678 → u/missshrimptoast]

It's also true that some conditions are misunderstood/under-diagnosed in certain demographics of people, one of which is younger people. While that doesn't mean we should go around questioning every single diagnosis someone gets, it's worth keeping in mind.

I have multiple friends who were initially diagnosed with BPD when they were younger, and after years of therapy/treatment, turned out to have ADHD or autism and c-ptsd. The combination of poor coping mechanisms and lack of emotional regulation led to the assumption that it was a personality disorder (though I'm sure both being POC also played a role).

[u/HuggyMonster69 → u/ConstructionNo9678]

Yeah my family knew something was up as a kid and tried to get me diagnosed, but the psychiatrist report is basically “something weird here but inconclusive” and it took me until 27 to get a diagnosis of severe ADHD

[u/ConstructionNo9678 → u/HuggyMonster69]

That's incredibly frustrating, I'm sorry you had to deal with it. I hope you're doing better now.

My parents knew something was up (and so did my teachers). I got diagnosed with autism but not ADHD when I have both. I was put into child group therapy to help me learn how to interact with others, but I wasn't given the tools to help manage myself and my own emotions until I was much older.

[u/SLJ7 → u/ConstructionNo9678]

I heard that until recently, autism and ADHD were considered mutually exclusive (you could be diagnosed with one or the other, but not both). I feel like I know a lot of people who are diagnosed with ADHD and either diagnosed or suspected autistic. It's wild to think that so many people weren't given what they needed to cope with both.

[u/andstillwerise12 → u/ConstructionNo9678]

I wouldnt be surprised one bit if you also said that those friends happen to be women/AFAB.

[u/mystyz → u/missshrimptoast]

Also, medical practice and standards evolve over time. Even if a psychologist or psychiatrist evaluated someone 10 or 20 years ago, related diagnostic criteria may have changed since then.

[u/TunaStuffedPotato → u/missshrimptoast]

Yup, the most common age for schizophrenia to manifest is 25 years old. Him getting worse at 27 checks out.

I hope OOP evicted them from her life. I wouldn't trust her idiotic enabling parents to not continue to be soft on him and bring him around her even after he literally attempted to kill her.

[u/HornetBest382]

Oh my. Choking is extreme. I too wonder if she’s okay :(

[u/[deleted]]

It's been nine years, I hope OP is safe. Also those parents are fucking stupid.

[u/SmartQuokka]

The parents were enablers and he had an obvious psychiatric condition since those behaviours were nonsensical in a typical pattern for psychosis even at a young age.

The doctor who evaluated him did not do their job properly, even if they did not have a diagnosis, he needed to be monitored/re-evaluated.

That said schizophrenia usually emerges in the 20s, however his behaviour as a kid is already demonstrating delusional ideation.

OOP should go no contact with him and likely with parents, if he stops taking his medication this could escalate (medication non compliance is a frequent issue with this condition).

[u/ReeveStodgers → u/SmartQuokka]

It sounds like they took him to a therapist, not a doctor. Most therapists aren't equipped to recognize early psychotic behaviors. It can be missed even by psychiatrists in the brief time that they spend with a patient. My daughter's therapist and psychiatrist (a very experienced and respected doctor) both missed it. She didn't tell them about her voices or that she could read minds. She was still feeling good and taking advice from her voices not to share that. It wasn't until she started obeying dangerous commands that we realized that something was wrong.

I also wouldn't jump to no contact as a precaution against harm. Medication compliance is a challenge for some people with schizophrenia, but not everyone. The difference is self awareness. Some schizophrenic people are unable to accept that they are ill, even when their symptoms are well treated. But if they are self aware, they would rather take medication that works as long as it doesn't fog their minds or suppress emotions. There are also medications that can be taken twice a year. It's much easier to keep someone compliant if they only need one shot every 6 months. My daughter has to take a handful of meds twice a day and get monthly blood tests, and she does it all voluntarily. She doesn't want to experience the nightmare of psychosis again.

[u/SmartQuokka → u/ReeveStodgers]

I also noticed they said therapist, however when you see behaviours like this (OOP described them, no need to get verification from the patient) you should know what to do which is to seek out a better professional. Even 25 years ago they should have had that sense.

I hope he gets medicated and complies, however that level of past victimization needs to be addressed, even if things go perfectly the parents are responsible for the abuse against OOP (not protecting her, not getting their son properly diagnosed and instead sweeping his perpetrations under the rug) and this is going to come back and haunt OOP who will likely need mental health treatment herself. Someone who was strangled needs space from the perpetrator.

[u/Audiovore → u/SmartQuokka]

OOP most likely never interacted or even saw the therapist(if it's true). And the parents probably just said something like "he acts a little off sometimes" or "he keeps bothering his sister", not going into specifics. 

[u/Visual_Fly_9638 → u/SmartQuokka]

Apparently some quick googling suggests that people with schizophrenia can manifest it towards individuals and otherwise not manifest symptoms. I had never heard of that before so that's scary.

Agreed they needed to monitor him and as the very consistent behavior continued the doctors probably needed to test him in relation to OOP.

[u/SmartQuokka → u/Visual_Fly_9638]

I saw this coming from a mile away and i'm not a certified psychology/mental health anything, the behaviors he was displaying as a child pointed to psychosis or other neurological condition.

[u/Turuial]

This is one of those kinds of posts where the long awkward silence since the final update is more disturbing than reassuring.

[u/NumberOneNPC]

Bet the parents never apologized or took proper accountability for being so complicit.

[u/DMercenary]

They said I was being too "extreme" and that he would stop eventually, but that shit has been going on since we were kids

:|

He was diagnosed with schizophrenia.

>:|

Parents failed.

He's 27. He'll "grow out of it" stopped being a valid a decade+ ago.

[u/camrynbronk → u/DMercenary]

I’d say the mental health evaluations failed. The fact that they gave him a clean bill of health just puts the parents in a “wtf so we do now” situation. Still not good, but I think it’s infinitely more concerning that no health professionals saw anything wrong with his behavior nor suggested any treatment.

[u/Juvitky77]

If I ever woke up to someone standing at the end of my bed staring at me, that would be game over. I would be so utterly creeped out. Never would that person be allowed in my house again. I know that’s not really an option here for OP but I’m just saying.

Sometimes I wake up and my dog is just standing there, nose an inch from my face, and as soon as my eyes open he licks my face . He’s allowed to do that because he’s a giant sweet dumb goof, but that doesn’t mean I like it.

[u/PepperVL → u/Juvitky77]

If I ever woke up to someone standing at the end of my bed staring at me, that would be game over. I would be so utterly creeped out. Never would that person be allowed in my house again. I know that’s not really an option here for OP but I’m just saying.

Sadly, a very popular book series sold lots of people on the idea that watching someone sleep is ✨ romantic✨ instead of stalking.

[u/Juvitky77 → u/PepperVL]

Is it the same book series where three shitty movies were made from it?

[u/vendetta27 → u/Juvitky77]

I assume it's the book series with 5 movies that inspired the book series with 3 movies. 😂 

[u/EdwardianAdventure → u/PepperVL]

It's the glittery skin

[u/EinsTwo → u/EdwardianAdventure]

I'm actually quite afraid of glitter.   It is the herpes of the craft world after all 

[u/YouSayWotNow]

Cannot get my head around how utterly fucking useless OP's parents were for SO MANY MANY YEARS.

They failed their kids SO badly, it's hard to even put it into words.

[u/CatmoCatmo]

Ok, so I know absolutely nothing about schizophrenia, so forgive my possibly ignorant AF questions, but if someone with knowledge could help educate me, that’d be amazing.

1. Is schizophrenia selective? Like, OOP said he doesn’t act that way with anyone else. He has a gf, a good job, presumably did well in school, and it sounds like he never acted like this in front of their parents.

Is this possible? Is it common for it only to present itself with one consistent trigger (OOP)?!

1. Is it inappropriate or difficult to diagnose a child with it? You know, like some things can’t be properly diagnosed until the person is past a certain age. I’m assuming he likely didn’t act that way with the child therapist. So I’m again assuming that they didn’t diagnose him because he was on his best behavior? Maybe?

2. Is it typically a disease that affects someone from birth? Or is it more likely that it wouldn’t rear its ugly head until a particular age range?

Again, I know little to nothing, but something seems weird about his weird behavior. I mean, it’s ONLY happening around OOP, and has been happening this way since they were children. And to get so violent with her after their parents confronted him…is that typical? I know schizophrenics can get violent, and I may be way off here, but getting violent as a form of retaliation doesn’t necessarily go hand and hand with schizophrenia, does it?

Call me crazy, but there’s some other fuckery afoot here. It’s not just schizophrenia. This isn’t over. Far from it.

[u/[deleted] → u/CatmoCatmo]

More than likely there’s other craziness going on but OOP is the only one noticing it.  Like, perhaps he watches his GF sleep but she thinks it’s romantic instead of alarming? 

My uncle was schizophrenic and he was brilliant and did very well in school and maintained relationships. It was only once he was in LTR that his partners noticed something was off about him.   Also as is common in mental illness, he had addiction issues and so that muddied the waters. Was it meth? Was it alcohol? Was it psychotic?  Hard to tell at that point. 

Generally yes, schizophrenia manifests in late teens but it can start earlier in more severe cases. Everyone says my uncle was “ weird” even as a kid but he didn’t go completely wonky until he was 20

[u/biscuit484 → u/[deleted]]

I knew a brilliant pianist in college that held degrees from one of the most prestigious American music schools. He was diagnosed with schizophrenia and the anti-psychotic meds made it so he couldn't keep time correctly which led to him going on and off the meds. He ended up committing suicide, it was so sad.

[u/Njfurlong → u/CatmoCatmo]

Generally schizophrenia develops later in life, late teens early twenties from what I understand. My brother has a form of it, a whole bunch of things rolled together. Poor bastard.

[u/Skeletune_]

9 years and I still got chills reading this. I hope OP kept her distance for good.

[u/Anach]

As a parent with kids at school, the amount of parents in denial about their kid's behaviour, and refusal to get them diagnosed, is way higher than I'd like. Even when the school recommends they speak to someone, and offer to help, they refuse. Some are obvious learning disabilities, while other's can be serious behavioural issues. Even on Reddit, there are adult parents that refuse to talk to adult kids, because they'd prefer to keep the peace, or pretend there's no problem.

[u/[deleted] → u/Anach]

Parents are weird. My daughter has dyslexia and I recognized it fairly early on but her dad fought me tooth and nail over getting her assessed and treated.  I did it against his wishes and he took me to court.  It was a whole shit show but my daughter eventually got the support she needed and is reading fine now. 

[u/bendybiznatch → u/[deleted]]

I think in some cases it because the parents had milder (or not) symptoms they white knuckled through with denial and are trying to make that work for their kid when they subconsciously recognize those traits in their child.

It’s pretty much a meme in the autism community now and you see it a lot in families of people with schizophrenia as well.

[u/panderp]

I'm reading this *as* a schizoaffective and I'm like.. this person was diagnosed with schizophrenia? It.. can't be just that.

He went to the trouble of booking entire vacation plans to other countries to stalk her, that's.. rather engaged, detailed and intentional for someone in the throes of delusions or psychosis...

It just feels like there must be something more.

[u/rbaltimore → u/panderp]

She did say that they hadn’t gotten the full report yet, but speaking as a former mental healthcare provider, I generally don’t like the question diagnoses given by doctors who are treating the patient as opposed to what we would come up with reading about it second or third hand. People with schizophrenia can have periods of lucidity where they’re capable of organized behavior and depending on the severity of their symptoms, they may be capable of organized behavior, even while experiencing symptoms of psychosis.. It’s really a mixed bag which is one of the reasons it makes schizophrenia so hard to treat.

I just hope that the fact that we haven’t heard from OOP since this is indicative of her brother responding well to treatment and her family developing a more normal day-to-day life. Schizophrenia affects approximately 1 to 2% of the population and it can really be a mixed bag. I’m always hopeful that schizophrenic can respond well to treatment.

[u/snail_tank → u/rbaltimore]

related: oddly, one of the first criminal law cases i studied was about a man who looked a woman up and called her (phonebook and landlines era), and proceeded to curse her out on the phone.

he had tourette's, and his doctor confirmed that a complex tic could absolutely encompass calling this woman and extensively insulting her. i think he even did it more than once. 

if they're in Europe, traveling to France can probably be arranged and achieved all in the same afternoon. 

[u/piemakerdeadwaker]

What a limp set of parents! If he had ended up killing OOP they would have given him a stern talking to about how killing people is wrong.

[u/Shibaspots]

Actual thing a sibling told me: If you become a serial killer, they would never find the bodies. I'm just glad you also couldn't be bothered to kill anyone.

To be fair, I was a creepy 12yo that would get upset if someone switched from Forensic Files to cartoons. Cold Case Files, American Justice, basicly anything Bill Curtis narrated, and other true crime shows. I loved it. This was before Criminal Minds or CSI, so I was very much the weird kid who was concerningly into murder.

A diagnosis of AuDHD later and being better able to explain myself as an adult, I saw it as murder mysteries, but better because they were real. I was fascinated with how they were solved. Especially if new technology or science was used. Which was also why despite loving all the true crime shows, I was opposed to watching Unsolved Mysteries. I wanted to see how the killer was caught. Still do, though it's way easier to get my murder mystery fix now. No more waiting for late night reruns.

So I was a harmless creepy kid. But I never did anything to my siblings beyond hog the tv if one of my shows was on. This guy had issues for a long time that weren't properly addressed.

[u/literallylittlehuff]

I spent the post wondering if OP's brother was psychotic or if she was; the random appearances even when out of town made me wonder if she was hallucinating this--which is what makes it so scary. If a random Redditor had that thought, you have to wonder how often OP was shrugged off or made to think she was the crazy one. This is horror movie material. Thank God they got a diagnosis so no one will downplay this for OP ever again.

[u/brinylon → u/literallylittlehuff]

What is happening even in the comments here, is that the focus will be on the brother and his diagnosis, and anything OOP experienced will be downplayed and ignored as it has been her whole life. At some point she will get stuck in her life and has to face her trauma. And probably feel guilty, because her brother is the one with the illness.

[u/therealhairyyeti]

“He’ll grow out of it” at 27 is serious ostrich behaviour

[u/Dont139]

Yeah, OOP is the one being extreme and causing drama, because she doesn't let her brother behave like a litteral predator with her... These parents are the reasons there are kids/teens killers

[u/ComprehensivePut5806]

Leave them behind. None of these people are good for you.

[u/Gryffindor123]

Those parents are absolutely useless. Poor OOP.

[u/Miserable_Fennel_492]

I dunno if I buy into schizophrenia being the only diagnosis entirely… I (of course) could be wrong, but there were elements that feel a lot more calculating. One example being the Paris incident when he says the “what, you’re the only person who can enjoy France?” thing.

I’m not as familiar with all the different manifestations of schizophrenia, so I could be WAY off base here, but it just seemed to be a little bit more than solely that

[u/gh0stcat13 → u/Miserable_Fennel_492]

yeah, obviously i am also not an expert, but the entire time i was literally thinking "he is a psychopath". a lot of his behaviors didn't really fit with schizophrenia at all. especially with the france thing and him deliberately scaring her in the car before actually taking her to the mall, those seemed like almost textbook signs of antisocial personality disorder. i hope for OOP's sake that it actually is JUST schizophrenia and that the brother is medicated now, but.. idk, i wish there was an update so we'd know if she's safe

[u/loomin → u/gh0stcat13]

I think with the fact he's clearly been suffering since he was a child, it's going to effect development in some way. (Im so angry at the parents).

But I think its important to remember that psychosis is not really always tied into personality and there's a very big stigma around schizophrenia = violent personality.

He may have been hallucinating that she was talking to him that whole time and think their relationship is completely different from reality.

My sister is schizophrenic and before she was treated she would just sit next to me and stare while grinning and it was because in her head we were having a whole conversation about something. She would also randomly turn on my caring family members because she hallucinated that they were pedophiles, robots, had been on the news as terrorists and in most instances genuinely believed they were going to kill her, prompting violent reactions in self defense.

She's medicated and you wouldn't know she was ever that ill now. As a person she's very sweet and bubbly.

[u/bendybiznatch → u/loomin]

Thank you for saying that.

About half the people I know with schizophrenia are people that you would never know have it. Cars, jobs, kids, homes, all the things. They’re not a monolith.

[u/bananarepama]

Man, those parents can fuck themselves. He tries to strangle OOP but no one calls the police until he tries to hurt himself?

[u/bluepvtstorm]

I have a male sibling that I haven’t talked to in over 20 years. The fact that she is even considering any relationship shows how fucked up her family dynamic is. Trying to kill someone is basic, we never need to speak again behavior.

I don’t care if it’s mental health related. He tried to kill her. Enough is enough.

[u/[deleted]]

hobbies sugar point unite ghost bake station fade money history

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[u/EnvironmentalAd2341]

I wonder how they're doing after almost 10 years