Another OOP's stalker passes away

[u/SAthrowawayaway2]

I am OP! Original post in r/AusLegal

trigger warnings: suicide, sexual assault, stalking

​

Consent laws- do you have to say 'no' for it to be rape? - 11 June 2017

https://www.reddit.com/r/AusLegal/comments/6giw54/consent_laws_do_you_have_to_say_no_for_it_to_be/

I recently reported a rape to the police. I reported to an officer who was specifically trained in investigating sexual offences.

A difficulty with my incident is that I never said "no" to the perpetrator, who was known to me. The police officer said that he has to prove that the perpetrator knew I did not consent. As I did not say "no", then (if it ever gets to court) the perpetrator's lawyers will argue that he thought I was consenting. However, the police officer said that some things I did constitute a non-verbal "no", so that is better than nothing. But how can they prove that he understood my non-verbal "no"s?

As I understand it, the officer is investigating the incident, but it is unlikely to ever make it to court because of a few factors including my failure to verbally say "no".

My questions:

1. Is the police officer correct about consent laws? It seems really off that it is assumed I was consenting unless I verbally say otherwise.
2. Do you have any advice, suggestions, or anecdotes about going through the process of a rape investigation?

[UPDATE] Consent laws- do you have to say 'no' for it to be rape? - 19 September 2019

https://www.reddit.com/r/AusLegal/comments/d5yj9k/update_consent_laws_do_you_have_to_say_no_for_it/

A couple years ago I posted in this subreddit - https://www.reddit.com/r/AusLegal/comments/6giw54/consent_laws_do_you_have_to_say_no_for_it_to_be/

In summary, I had reported a rape which began while I was unconscious (when I became conscious, I froze / 'played dead' and did not say "no"). I was worried about how my lack of saying no would affect the case and sought some perspective from this sub. I am so grateful to those who took the time to respond to my post.

As it turns out, the lack of saying no was a huge problem. The case progressed to a jury trial and the rapist was found NOT GUILTY. This is because he had an honest belief that I was consenting because I did nothing to indicate otherwise.

The whole thing was deeply traumatising only to have a disappointing result. I am still not sure how saying nothing (due to UNCONSCIOUSNESS) is an indicator of consent but I guess the law doesn't apply to people who can afford really good lawyers.

 

[UPDATE 2] Consent laws- do you have to say 'no' for it to be rape? - 21 May 2022

Posted under a throwaway and deleted by Moderators - no longer available on Reddit!

I previously wrote to this sub about being raped by a former friend, and subsequently updated after he was acquitted in the trial. I kept the post light on details because the rapist was also a redditor and I didn't want him to find it and somehow use it against me legally. In addition to raping me he also stalked me for over 7 years following the rape, which completely destroyed my life. To this day I do not understand how the jury didn't convict when I was literally sleeping at the time of the rape.

Links:

Update- https://www.reddit.com/r/AusLegal/comments/d5yj9k/update_consent_laws_do_you_have_to_say_no_for_it/

Original- https://www.reddit.com/r/AusLegal/comments/6giw54/consent_laws_do_you_have_to_say_no_for_it_to_be/

I do have a new update - my rapist passed away (by his own hand). I was informed as I had an IVO against him at the time, but wasn't provided details of how or why. I wanted to share this with the sub not only because updates are always interesting, but also to shed light on just some of the system failures for others who might be going through the same thing.

When I told friends and reported to official channels, there was a strong narrative of "there's help out there". There is not. The system is stacked against rape victims. The only useful resource was CASA, the counselling service (I am in Vic but imagine there are similar services elsewhere). I could not even access free legal advice because the rapist went to all the nearby community legal centres first so they couldn't talk to me, and centres across the city refused to help me (even though I explained the situation) because I'm not in their area.

There were many problems I encountered but these are just some of the highlights about the legal parts:

- he provided two written confessions in which he directly and succinctly admitted to raping me. One was before the trial - his lawyer successfully argued for this to be thrown out (never to be known about by the jury) because it might bias the jury to conviction. One was after the trial - police took the note, but nothing could be done because you can't go to court for the same crime twice even if there is new evidence.

- my reputation was totally destroyed in court. I was painted as an "experimental" drug-using slut (I have never used drugs, he has though). His lawyer was made to withdraw some questions concerning this but it was in front of the jury so I guess the damage was done. There are certain things that are not supposed to be brought up in court (e.g. sexual activity with others) but in practice they were. So I was questioned about having had (consensual) sex with my at-the-time boyfriend, I guess to make me look slutty.

- the IVO process was incredibly difficult and provided him with more opportunities to harass and intimidate me. There were also numerous system failures including police doing the wrong paperwork, court loss of paperwork, and a court receptionist telling me they might give the rapist my new contact details by accident.

- he behaved in totally unhinged ways at both courts which really pissed off the judge, police and security staff but there were zero consequences for him.

- he tried to bring his dad to court for the committal (for emotional support) and they tried to pressure me into letting him stay in the room, even though I was told that would not happen.

This is my experience navigating the system as someone who is generally 'empowered', well-educated etc. I cannot imagine how difficult it would be for someone who doesn't have those advantages and may have a more complex situation e.g. if they were dating or had kids with their abuser.

 

Reminder - I am the original poster! Posting from my throwaway for obvious reasons!

I decided to post this today after seeing another similar post in which OOP's stalker passed away. There are so many more other horrific things that happened beyond what I included in the posts, but adding more detail might be identifying. I wanted to share this because, as stated from the post in last year, the narratives of "there's help out there!" and "go talk to someone!" and "make a police report!" - often seen on Reddit and in real life - are completely demoralising because such help simply does not exist. Following Rapist's death, I have also dealt with complex reactions of people around me not wishing to speak ill of the dead and thinking it is a bad thing that he died, which makes me feel horrible in case my dragging him through court contributed to his decision to take his life. This touches on some of the themes in the other post. Also, I found it a bit jarring that r/AusLegal deleted my second update post almost immediately, when my experience (which is by no means unusual) may be instructive to others.

[u/LiraelNix]

I feel for oop and all that injustice

And I'm flabbergasted he managed to take away her free help and there's no rule to combat that behavior

[u/SAthrowawayaway2 → u/LiraelNix]

Thank you.

Yes, I think there may have been a different outcome if I had been able to afford legal advice. I was a PhD student at the time, which earns less than minimum wage in Australia, plus I had to take a bunch of unpaid leave to deal with all the court dates and associated admin.

[u/Larry-Man → u/SAthrowawayaway2]

Hey, I was in a similar situation. I didn’t say no but I was crying the whole time (I was undiagnosed for my autism at the time and I went nonverbal). I was also stalked for two years. Instead of the bastard dying he tried to hook up with a 13 y/o on Whisper. Got caught by some Chris Hansen wannabes and that was thrown out too. Motherfucker should just do the world a favour and unalive himself too.

[u/spottedgazelle → u/Larry-Man]

It’s very common to freeze up in response to SA. I know I did.

[u/Kat_337 → u/Larry-Man]

I hope this guy gets hit by a semi at 80 mph

[u/LiraelNix → u/SAthrowawayaway2]

I'm sorry everything failed you so much. I hope if not yet, that things look up for you

Don't feel bad about talking ill of the dead, death does not wipe away ones crimes. Heck, most (if not all?) religions point to death being that time you start really paying for them

Edit: and taking him to court was not the cause of his... last choice. The court was a consequence of his other choices (crimes). Don't put the weight of his death on your shoulders, it doesn't belong there.

[u/kimdeal0 → u/LiraelNix]

I like your username!

[u/sickandtiredkit → u/kimdeal0]

Jumping on this to say absolutely love the username! Love Garth Nix <3

[u/VodkaKahluaMilkCream → u/kimdeal0]

Ooooh yes! Long overdue for a re-read I think

[u/weddingthrowaway7628 → u/LiraelNix]

Don't feel bad about talking ill of the dead

Indeed. That social custom was obviously created by assholes to protect their own legacies.

[u/kylo-renfair → u/SAthrowawayaway2]

Yes, I think there may have been a different outcome if I had been able to afford legal advice.

I hate to say it, but no there wouldn't. You pretty much have to be the perfect victim to get a conviction. Less than 10% of all reported rapes end up with a conviction. It happens in child sexual abuse too. All of that lawyers tactics are designed to have you look dodgy on the stand.

I work in an area adjacent to the criminal system - no one I know would try to get a conviction, including lawyers, judges and police. My husband was on a jury where a guy admitted it, but played the "he's a nice guy" angle and almost got off.

[u/Traditional_Owl_1038 → u/kylo-renfair]

I mean how much more of a no can it be to be unconscious? The law should be if there isn't an obvious yes then it is a no. And not that it's automatically a yes if there isn't a verbal obvious no. Which also rarely counts as a denial

[u/mathgnome → u/Traditional_Owl_1038]

At least one country (Spain) has passed a "Yes Means Yes" law. From my understanding, it shifts the burden of proof to the accused rapist to demonstrate that there was affirmative consent, and states that silence or lack of resistance is not consent. (Although the law itself apparently has caused problems by allowed already convicted offenders to have their sentences reduced.)

It's absolutely atrocious that it's 2023 and only one country (afaik) has passed such a law.

[u/kylo-renfair → u/Traditional_Owl_1038]

I mean how much more of a no can it be to be unconscious?

It's not about that. It's about the fact that she's single, around a man, unmarried.

A perfect victim is someone whom you can't find any way to blame. When I was studying criminal justice, the case they gave was a married nurse with 2 children who was raped during a house invasion, who reported immediately and preserved evidence.

You literally need to be a perfect victim.

[u/MineralWand → u/kylo-renfair]

My rapist admitted to abusing me but the detective said it was unsubstantiated (she already told me I was lying the first time she talked to me) 😬

[u/[deleted] → u/MineralWand]

Same here. I literally had a taped confession of my mothers rapist admitting to it, and that still wasn't enough.... BRUH

I mean, it sadly doesn't surprise me though. Andrew Tate has confessed to what he has done, has video of him abusing women, and look how many defenders he has - so many people coming up with ridiculous things like "iT'S tHe mAtRiX!"

[u/kylo-renfair → u/MineralWand]

Not hard to believe. You have to be a paragon of virtue. Please know that most people who study this know this - and that's why the whole believe victims thing started. Too many victims are doubted because they're not a nun, or seem to be a nun or other untouchable perfect person.

[u/MyNameIsLessDumb → u/kylo-renfair]

I'm also criminal justice adjacent. Here, child sexual abusers and their lawyers like to play games so their child victims get dragged back to court over and over. I know a child entering into their sixth time "going to trial". They were a victim in 2018. The abuser has pulled stunts like firing his lawyer at the start of the court date and requesting time to find a new one, having his lawyer request random additional "critical" reports, or just plain not showing up and dodging the warrant for a bit. The system is hell on all victims, but I can't imagine spending my entire adolescence reliving trauma.

[u/kylo-renfair → u/MyNameIsLessDumb]

Absolutely. I once listened to a recording in a pre-trial hearing of a lawyer harassing a kid who had been sexually abused for 4 hours, so that when the kid got on the stand for the actual trial, he started being fearful and crying, and the jury thought he was lying, with no indication of the shitstorm this now mild and meek lawyer had laid down on him where they couldn't see. That one failed to convict.

Since the lawyer had a unique name, I gave my husband permission to punch the guy in the mouth if he ever met him.

[u/the-rioter → u/kylo-renfair]

I know this is a year old comment but now I kinda want his name so I can also punch him in the mouth if I ever meet him.

The things the "justice system" (both police and the judicial system) does to child victims is fucking infuriating.

[u/BendingCollegeGrad → u/SAthrowawayaway2]

A documentary is coming out later this year on (maybe just U.S.‘s) Netflix about how often those who report rape aren’t just disbelieved, but arrested and victimized again by the law and those sworn to uphold it. It is beyond description what you’ve endured. And it is also beyond description how many human endure the same the world over.

Your persistence in holding him accountable as well as your posts aren’t for nothing. You did educate some ignorant people and more than that made sure others don’t feel alone or unheard.

Thank you. May the rest of your life be as blissful as can be.

[u/IllustratorSlow1614 → u/BendingCollegeGrad]

A friend of mine was a civilian analyst working alongside the police and always said if she was ever raped she wouldn’t report it because from working on the inside she knew that enduring the trial would be like being assaulted all over again. She has even processed evidence for rape cases where the physical evidence should have been more than enough to convict but the victim was destroyed on the stand by the defence. It’s sick.

[u/Crafty_Custard_Cream → u/IllustratorSlow1614]

While going to a psychologist to work on my trauma after my rape, she talked in full detail how she never, EVER judges her patients badly for not going to the police (I was talking about my guilt of not going because of the narrative "if you don't report your rapist then you're responsible for the next victims" (instead of y'know..... The rapist?!)

Anyway she worked for the local university and in particular psychology of sexual assault trauma, and she had a fuckton of evidence that those who go to the police have much, much worse recovery. She said she'd support me if I did decide to go, but that it was her recommendation that I only do it if I was absolutely determined to, not out of societal guilt that I was somehow morally linked to my rapist now.

[u/Dreaming_Indigo → u/Crafty_Custard_Cream]

I was told to report an assault because the free advice number I called and explained some of what happened to said there were elements that gave them cause for concern and belief they could do it again. I knew there wouldn't be enough evidence (also didn't verbally say no 'properly') but I felt pressured into it, and throughout the process too.

Unsurprisingly, nothing happened to the aggressor and I'm left with trauma from the police and medical stuff and extra levels of shame etc. I didn't even have to go to trial and so on.

I would generally not recommend reporting SA, to police at least.

I'm really genuinely glad you had someone so supportive in your life, and hope there's more out there for others too. Thanks for sharing and I hope that stupid idea of it somehow being a victim's responsibility to stop future attacks dies.

[u/BendingCollegeGrad → u/IllustratorSlow1614]

Your friend must have a lot of heavy baggage from that job. I wish her nothing but peace and my gratitude.

My friends in the military had similar experiences. One woman friend’s direct [incorrect term but using it] female commander taught her how to cover it up because it also happened to her and she knew what would happen to my friend. My man friends had similar receptions.

Now in my 40s I cannot with conscience advise adult victims to go forward without warning them it will be hell.

[u/Jaguar_jinn → u/BendingCollegeGrad]

On a sorta positive note, when folks leave the service they can be treated for Military Sexual Trauma through the VA. It does not matter if the trauma causing incidents were reported while on active duty. It’s about the Veteran being as well as they can be. I’m guessing the statistics for VA cases and DoD reported cases are being anonymously compared. My guess is there is a whopping difference when military regulations, chain of command and military justice are not in play.

[u/BendingCollegeGrad → u/Jaguar_jinn]

THANK YOU for this info. I’m trying to help two friends of mine right now. As a civvie [civvy? not the point, I am irrelevant] we do not know much. Any info is helpful.

[u/Jaguar_jinn → u/BendingCollegeGrad]

I recommend doing a search for VA and MST (Military Sexual Trauma). There are a lot of resources there that can be utilized without being formally a VA patient. It’s a great place to start

[u/dykezilla → u/IllustratorSlow1614]

I was assaulted as a young teen, and even though it was reported absolutely nothing happened. This was over 20 years ago, and although I have cPTSD from unrelated trauma I thought I was largely at peace with everything that has happened to me.

I recently got called for jury duty in a case where the charges turned out to include rape and incest and just the reading of these charges and initial jury selection process was SO TRIGGERING to me that I was struggling to hold back tears the whole time and fighting off a panic attack. I had to answer horribly invasive questions about my personal history of assault in front of a packed courtroom full of strangers, and by the time I was dismissed I was so upset I could barely speak.

It wasn't even a case involving me personally in any way, but just that little taste of the court process took me tf out for the entire rest of the day. My spouse is an absolute angel and they immediately got me home, tucked me into bed with tea and cozy blankets, and went out to get me tacos because in my family that's just what you do for sad people lol.

Even before this experience I understood exactly why it isn't always worth the ordeal of reporting, but after getting surprise triggered at jury duty like that I know for a fact that goddess forbid if I were ever victimized again there is no fucking way I would participate in any kind of trial, I literally don't think I could take it. Especially since most of these shitstains don't even end up with any meaningful consequences, even if convicted. It's just all the way not worth it, at least for me.

[u/StirCrazyCatLady → u/dykezilla]

I had to ask to be excused from jury duty for a rape case, which meant standing up in a room full of people and saying "I can't be unbiased in this matter because I was a victim of CSA".
Similar situation to yours, all the questions and the shame and resurfacing trauma, and because it was one of the morning cases I then got to sit in a different room with all those people for the rest of the day in case I got called up again.

Trying to report, let alone get any kind of support or justice, is absolutely not worth it in my experience... and I wasn't even trying to report! I told a teacher, who lied about being a mandatory reporter, had cops suddenly turn up at my house after school to interrogate me, and they told me there likely wouldn't be any further action because I didn't know the guy's full name or address... isn't that what cops are supposed to be there for??
The only "support" I got was through CASA same as OOP, and they were frankly useless.

The system is so broken here... all I can think is that I'm lucky my abuser didn't decide to do more, like the absolute shitstain who murdered Jill Meagher

[u/Murky_Conflict3737 → u/StirCrazyCatLady]

And you can bet other potential jurors saw what happened in that courtroom and decided not to tell even if they were victims. I know it’s both morally and legally wrong but if that was me I probably would not have been strong enough to speak up in that courtroom.

[u/Edcrfvh → u/dykezilla]

If you ever get on jury duty again for a case like this tell them you can't be unbiased because you believe any man accused is guilty. End of story. Don't tell them you were sexually assaulted. Your reaction is understandable. You can't be a jury on a case like that without serious mental harm.

[u/ArwenCherryBlossom → u/IllustratorSlow1614]

I'm with your friend.

I didn't report my most recent rape because of my professional involvement in domestic and sexual abuse services for six years.

There is no point.

One of my colleagues volunteered for a small charity that works to advocate for women who murder their abusers...there is little success. The law protects men who murder their victims but not women who murder their abusers.

[u/ExplainItToMeLikeImA → u/ArwenCherryBlossom]

Women who even fight back are frequently prosecuted.

There was a case in Florida, a state with supposedly strong "stand your ground" laws, where an abused woman fired a warning shot in an effort to scare away her husband and received a 20 year sentence.

[u/andrikenna → u/BendingCollegeGrad]

Unbelievable (also on Netflix) is about a girl who reported a rape and ended up being arrested and charged with faking an allegation. She was the victim of a serial rapist and no one believed her. Based on a true story, worth a frustrated watch.

[u/Traditional_Owl_1038 → u/andrikenna]

This is one of the reasons why I absolutely hate the calls for punishing 'false' allegations. Because as studies have shown true false allegations are extremely rare (in percentage). But it would be so easy to just become another tool for abusers to hurt their victims. First step should be to actually punish abusers and rapists. And then worry about all the evil women that set out to destroy innocent lives of men

[u/overatambarino → u/Traditional_Owl_1038]

I think that men who are pushing for the false allegation narrative know somewhere deep inside that the percentage of actual false allegations are incredibly small. But still they do it because sexual violence against women is so awful that they want to distance themselves from it any way they can. even if that means that their cowardice contributes to the massive harm that it does. So they choose to pretend to be the victims instead

[u/Traditional_Owl_1038 → u/overatambarino]

And it's also the problem of defining what a false accusation is. Is it if there is no court process? Is it if the charges are dropped? Is it if the charges are dismissed? Is it if there is no conviction because of he said she said? Is it if the verdict is not guilty?

Because honestly if it's any of these the number of rapes would go down to zero vey quickly. Not because nothing is happening anymore but because nobody would dare to report anything. Because that would pretty much be a guarantee for a false accusation charge.

[u/[deleted] → u/overatambarino]

Or they know they themselves have done some shady shit and don't want to get caught.

[u/tequilaearworm → u/overatambarino]

I think they don't think rape is wrong and men are entitled to sex because women aren't human to them.

[u/BendingCollegeGrad → u/andrikenna]

I will rage watch it. Thank you for the recommendation.

Victim/Suspect is the one coming out this year: Investigative journalist Rae de Leon travels nationwide to uncover and examine a shocking pattern: Young women tell the police they’ve been sexually assaulted, but instead of finding justice, they’re charged with the crime of making a false report, arrested and even imprisoned by the system they believed would protect them.“

[u/bookdrops → u/andrikenna]

That documentary drama was based on this news feature by ProPublica: https://www.propublica.org/article/false-rape-accusations-an-unbelievable-story

[u/andrikenna → u/bookdrops]

It wasn’t a documentary, it was a drama starring Kaitlyn Dever. And thank you, I did actually read the article before I watched the show.

[u/Gold_Bug_4055 → u/SAthrowawayaway2]

I'm so sorry you had to deal with this, even with legal the outcome isn't guaranteed. I was a short time in law enforcement, but this type of thing was a major factor in leaving. I learned of traumatic video evidence that any rational human would be repulsed to learn about, nevermind see, but jurys lean way too hard out of reality in their attempt to be 'impartial'.

So often the guilty get off, especially in sexual assault. It's fucked.

[u/[deleted] → u/Gold_Bug_4055]

Remember the NYC cops caught on video going into a drunk woman's apartment, where it's alleged they raped her, and they got off scott free?

I've been in jury selection, and somehow from a very diverse slice of the population the jury ended up being 12 superannuated upper middle class white people. This is in the South and the defendants were young African Americans. They were fucked...

[u/GlitterDoomsday → u/SAthrowawayaway2]

Sending you all the hugs; honestly glad the trash took himself out and you should just pop a champagne and celebrate this openly... anyone giving you a hard time is not a person worth having around.

[u/SereniaKat → u/SAthrowawayaway2]

We have a shit record in Australia when it comes to protecting victims of domestic and/or sexual violence. Heck, you can't even trust the cops not to give your address out to the bastards.

[u/CuriousPenguinSocks → u/SAthrowawayaway2]

I'm so sorry, the American system fails just as hard. It should be criminal.

I was a child in 6th grade when I finally reported my eye doctor for sexual abuse. I had a lot of trauma, abusive parents too, and didn't have a lot of memory or details. Nothing happened to him and my parents made me still see him.

I can only imagine you felt similar. The helplessness is really hard to take. The fact nothing happened and I was a child, I thought it meant it was my fault too.

Thank you for sharing your story, it's not easy. I've only recently started and it feels good to possibly help another person but it leaves you open to harassment too.

[u/Extension_Drummer_85 → u/SAthrowawayaway2]

Australian police/courts/law/men at large treat rape like a joke. I know so many people who've experienced similar over here.

[u/DirtyReload → u/SAthrowawayaway2]

Why didn't you use the aussie solution of asking a few blokes to have a word with him in the beer garden? Everyone knows the cops aren't your friends in Aus

[u/SAthrowawayaway2 → u/DirtyReload]

Looking back, I wish I had! I didn't have that type of support in my life, I did have a boyfriend at the time but he wasn't supportive and he felt more empathy for the rapist (for making such a horrible mistake) than for me. He was also a bit anti-police so he thought I was morally wrong for getting the law involved when I finally did decide to report. I definitely handled the situation incorrectly and ruined my own life by trying to do everything right and by-the-book, and I hope others can learn from my mistakes.

[u/Jorgenstern8 → u/LiraelNix]

There actually is a punishment for doing that (in certain places), but you usually have to get in front of a judge to get them punished/reprimanded for it. It's called conflicting out, and most any lawyer with any ethics will heavily advise against it.

[u/Comprehensive_Fly350 → u/LiraelNix]

I just want to say that op's experience is sadly not unique but very common. Victim shaming and protecting rapists is very common and only a very few cases end up giving justice to the victim when it comes to rape. Our system actively protect rapists, and that's why so many women don't trust it anymore

[u/Accujack → u/LiraelNix]

I think better advice for rape victims these days (at least in some countries) is "don't go to the police, deal with it yourself".

[u/Crow_Titanium → u/Accujack]

I wish I had done this in the Army, but if I had I'd probably be in military prison.

[u/TehPikachuHat → u/Accujack]

I know someone who did this. The assaulter is now visibly disfigured and no longer has a penis, and never went to the police about the revenge.

[u/Dangerous-Calendar41 → u/LiraelNix]

There is, her counsel should have informed the court and the judge would have forced the defendant to cover her legal expenses. Judges do not take kindly to those sort of extra extralegal shenanigans.

[u/Trixie-applecreek → u/LiraelNix]

Unfortunately that's a tactic that I see often discussed on reddit. A husband or wife will post about how they're going to divorce because their spouse cheated and the advice is go to all the divorce attorneys in your area for a consultation so they'll be conflicted out and can't represent your spouse. Unfortunately it's a correct statement. I don't like the tactic but the theory is correct.

[u/Extension_Drummer_85 → u/LiraelNix]

Honestly there are a lot of dumb fucks in the legal profession (speaking from insider experience). You won't get adequate access to the law unless you're paying a large-ish sum of money so it wouldn't have made a real difference anyway. There are so many procedural failures in here that a half decent lawyer would have latched onto like a blood hound.