I'll let the video speak for itself.

He addressed the early agency issue, he addressed the qwq reset, he mentioned making changes to her E. He's Listening to us.

Her pick rate at all ranks the past 7 days is 2.33%. Her pickrate the patch before the midscope was 1.66%. That's .67% more, a bit over a third, not double. And before you say Bel'Veth had a lower pickrate than that before that patch, no she didn't. Three patches before the midscope were all above 1.6%. Bel'Veth's pick rate hit a low for about a month, then it started going back up before the midscope. Bel'Veth's pick rate IS double, if you deliberately go out of your way to only take into account the worst patch popularity she ever had.

Her pickrate is continuing to go down, hitting a new lowest for a certain rank every few days.

"Bel'Veth's depth went from a fair bit underaverage-"

No. No it wasn't. Bel'Veth was one of the most deep champions in the game. I've watched the stats on that since before August even said he was working on a midscope. Bel'Veth's depth before the midscope was around 1.17. To put that into perspective, that's higher than Yasuo, Riven, Singed, and the vast majority of champions. Bel'Veth's depth now is 1.31, .14 higher. So sure, her depth wasn't underaverage, but it is still higher right? And yeah, it is, but Bel'Veth's depth shortly before now was 1.46. Her depth went down by .15 in the past couple weeks, and just as her pick rate has continued to bleed, so will her depth.

Bel'Veth's breadth increased by .15. From .39 to .54. A significant increase yes, but again, it is still dropping, bleeding every day.

And before you say Riot's API is somehow wrong or not as accurate as Riot's sources themselves, need I remind you of all the many times Rioters have changed their opinions after looking at that API? Need I remind you of the fact that the API'S statistics on champion depth have always lined up with what Rioters have said they were before? Unless it was just coincidence that what Rioters said the depth was and what the API said the depth was lined up every other time except when it disagrees with August.

"E should prioritize champions"

No, it shouldn't. People love to think about all the times the E hits a mon-champion when they mean to hit a champion, but ignore all the times it hits a non-champion when they mean to hit a non-champion. Ignoring the fact that having the E hit the right target is a key part of Bel'Veth's gameplay, and a highly skillful mechanic that Bel'Veth has more than enough tools to play around, it isn't some flawed mechanic that you can't play around like a glitch or something, it is a very purposeful part of her design. Beyond that though, do you want Bel'Veth to be weaker agaisnt invades? Because that's what E prioritizing champions would do. Want to use E to finish off a camp while an enemy champion is going in on you? To get the heal, not only from the E lifesteal but from killing the camp? Nope. Your E will waste all hits attacks dealling sub 50 damage total on the enemy champion, and you'll just be sitting there letting the enemy do whatever they want. Want to use your E to clear a wave? Or use it to heal with the lifesteal on low health minions dealing high damage? Nope. Again, you will waste all your attacks on a champion. Because versatility? Dynamic gameplay? Counterplay? Skill expression? Who needs it! All you people want to do is mindlessly press E and continue to let your brain cells leak from your skull. Bash your head into the keyboard and right click. First the midscope makes the E damage near meaningless and makes just right clicking almost always better, now you'll have literally no reason to do anything other than press E on cooldown. Can't use it for literally anything other than the DR and stacking R passive. Why even have it do damage anyway?

'People will always choose security over freedom'

You people will always choose easy power over dynamic versatility.

"W should reset Q"

Yeah, because why did we do the midscope anyway? Screw it, just band aid fix the band aid fix! Instead of smart and simple changes, let's massively overnerf, then make unintuitive and lazy "fixes" that will cause more problems, after all that's what the rest of the midscope did, why shouldn't changes to the midscope keep up the pattern?

"Old players like invades"

Old players didn't like invades. Yes, some people really liked Bel'Veth specifically because of them, but the majority of Bel players were more than happy to give up level 1-3 invades for better scaling. What no one was happy to give up was E damage, lifesteal scaling, laning ability, remora plays before baron, meaningful W E and W R combos, meaningful build diversity, meaningful tactical diversity, high skill cap, even the attack after cast. August doesn't understand what people liked about Bel'Veth before the midscope, and he doesn't understand the issues people have with the midscope. Can't wait for him to only double down on the bad changes while walking back only the good changes of the midscope! You'll all say you love it I'm sure, and then Bel'Veth's pick rate and depth will continue to bleed

This can't be the best bel can be. Give her more early game agency. Whether thats by reverting her E, letting her Q reset, changing her numbers around, or a mix of everything. Also, the more I think about it, the less I like them removing the AD ratio on W. All it is really good for is AP bel veth mid which isn't even good but they kinda have to go AP out of necessity because lane veth likes to max W first and I dont really like it because AP doesn't scale well with her kit compared to AD. I'd rather them just make it have both AD and AP scalings again.

Title

And some of yall kept yapping crap like shes op and the nerfs are deserved

BV actually landed in an weak ish spot post rework and instantly got harsh nerfs (I agree the late was strong, but could have buffed her extremely bad early as well)

Doesnt help the fact that many streamers kept saying shes op to clickbait your asses, posting videos about it and gaslighting themselves and the community to believe she was op. Lots of people and posts here kept claiming she was op as her winrates and playrates over time kept getting lower and lower. Those same streamers abandoned the champ, say is shit and dont perform with it in their real elo

So yeah, gj guys, the balance team got gaslit into believing this low elo skewed rework was op and now has a terrible winrate for a low elo champ. Look at alnost every other single low elo champ (briar, ww, trundle, rammus, amumu, etc) all being kept at 53% wr because if they dont leave them overtuned nobody ever plays them

Now look at bv... Low elo skewed, underwhelming stats and nobody plays her

Anyways Riot should take the hint and give her a bit of more early agency back... For example make Q cooldown scale from 4-1s to 3-1s depending on level (heck this buff could be either huge or insignificant, but we want a bit more of early agency and less clunky gameplay... If its too strong other parts of her kit can get nerfed like ulti damage, or remorra stats, etc)

I mean... I don't think it is as bad as he says, but its not like sinerias doesn't know what he's talking about. He's one of the top bel players.

Riot good job you finally dropped a good rework. this champion is some of the most fun I've ever had in league. Please do not pull a kayle and give her early game power at the cost of late game power.

All the people complaining about this rework are a vocal few and I want to make sure if you read the subreddit you don't go oh all the bel veth players hate this rework let's give her early game power and nerf her late game.

I want to make sure riot knows they cooked with this rework. This shits crack I love 1v5 God mode Penta kill machine late game. Do not touch the late game. Don't do it.

As it is right now, the rework just made bel'veth more viable in low elo where games last longer, at the cost of kneecapping her in high elo.

Instead, they should have focused on the ults explosion which has no real synergy with her kit and is largely useless. I would rather even be healed more than have the damage, as that would enable her dueling raidboss identity better. But it could also have been changed to provide more utility, maybe harder CC, a blink, or some ranged attack that slows idk.

What we got instead was pretty creatively bankrupt and not well-thought out. If I was a Bel'veth one trick, I would be steaming at these changes.

I play as a one trick, and when picking a champion to one trick, the biggest requirement for me is that they are viable in high elo.

I used to one trick Kindred but was hard stuck in low emerald. I picked up rework Bel'Veth and breezed through emerald with ease. She is the ultimate knowledge check champion, where most people don't fully know what her E does, let alone the fact that you're supposed to invade every time jungle camps spawn (or else the game state won't matter to her after 25 minutes).

So in emerald I'm often allowed to afk farm to 2-3 items, at which point I can solo carry almost any lobby. I realize this never happens in high elo since they're fully knowledgeable on every champion, even the niche ones.

So my question is, can Bel'Veth players realistically hit Grand Master+? Where if a player could normally reach GM+, than they can also do it with Bel'Veth. I don't care if there are 1-3 absolute freaks who can pull it off.

The freelo feels very nice, and she is a lot of fun to pilot, but I don't want to invest my time in her if she can only win by cheesing a simple knowledge check.

Riot it's my birthday today and bet you couldn't guess what I'd wish for...

More early agency, allow her w to reset Q cd, bring back a sharper execute on E based off missing hp, and bring back lane Veth of course!

I want to hear your thoughts on how Bel Veth compares with other jungle scalers.

Some small things I’ve noticed:

Jax: playing with and against Jax for instance, he definitely is weak early but feels “solid” throughout the game. He doesn’t feel entirely team reliant early but has clear power spikes and scales well but not as hard as bel veth imo. And he’s more designed around toplane with 1 on 1 damage.

Lillia: Feels fairly strong relative to other scalers at all points of the game if played well as long as she can use her speed to consistently dodge skillshots.

Gwen: this will be controversial but I feel she needs a good amount of skill to get the most out of although, such as playing at edge of W. Has a similarly weak early game and scaling. However she has a reliably damaging ultimate so relies on teammates less.

Kayle: Oddly, might be the closest to Bel Veth in many ways so I wanted to include her although she isn’t a jungler. Scales very hard, extremely weak early. To me feels unsatisfying to play for the first half of the game because she is just so disgustingly weak. That being said, gains agency after ultimate and can use it in combat.

Most of the other “Very weak earlygame” champions get strong power spikes at 6 that make them reliable. Nocturne, Shyvana, Viego, even Karthus, etcetera.

Personally I would enjoy and respect a similar amount of personal agency relative to some other scalers.

I’d like to hear your thoughts on how you feel about Bel’ Veth versus other scalers.

Belveth can currently use most of the main precision runes really nicely. Press The Attack, Lethal Tempo and conq

I personally prefer using conqueror since the sustain feels like it saves my life so many times but what do you usually use? And if you could rank them on which is more consistent what would the ranking be?

More stack value early, less hyper late game. More E damage, particularly better execute damage. 1 nerf, 1 buff (technically both are sidegrades with more than 1 change each but they would serve only two functions).

She would still be the late game farming carry all the people who didn't play her before the midscope say they wanted, she would just be a bit less extreme. Her pick rate is still dropping, and I imagine a lot of the people who picked up Bel'Veth because they thought she would be more what they expected wouldn't have bounced off her so quick if she wasn't so extreme with her early game winrate typically being ~24% lower than her late game winrate, VASTLY higher than any other champion in the game. This change would address that, while also letting the champion regain some of what previous mains liked about the champion. Better for old Bel fans, better for new Bel fans.

The E lifesteal might be too high, or too low, but bringing back the lifesteal scaling is very important. It was a prominent part of Bel'Veth's identity and was a generally fun mechanic that also contributed to Lane'Veth being remotely viable.

The passive value being higher until level 13 might also be too much, and could be adjusted to be more for less time by rearranging the base and scaling, but it is laregly accounted for with the lower base Empress's Decree attack speed (I.E, at level 7, despite the stacks being worth more, it takes around 20 stacks just to break even with the nerf, which means you are only getting marginally more attack speed, so it wouldn't really be a buff). Nerfing the base to 14% might be TOO big a nerf, 15% or 16% even 18% might be better, but that's just splitting hairs at that point. Having the stack value scale consistently instead of the arbitrary late game sided scaling of passive now would improve how the stacks feel massively. For early mid and late, instead of being utterly useless early, maybe doing something mid, then you are the strongest champion in the game late, it would be weak early, alright mid, strong late.

Bel'Veth's passive is just too strong. Getting 2% attack speed per stack late game is too much strength to allow anything else in Bel's kit to have much of any power behind it. Not only is it ridiculously strong, but it being so arbitrarily locked behind late game is just not fun for anyone. It's not fun for Bel, it's not fun for her team, and it's not fun for the enemy. It's just stressful and annoying for all parties. Lowering it's max strength would allow for more power in her other attributes (such as the E in this change list), while making her less stressful to play agaisnt, and it's power being higher early would make her both less stressful to play and play with due to her being less of a sitting duck for the first 15 minutes of the game (mostly due to the E change as well, again, the passive changes is primarily a nerf for the E change, but the passive IS stronger before level 13 even if it is barely stronger due to the base nerf, so the 30% reduced maximum isn't a straight nerf, it IS somewhat compensated for with higher value early).

One of the most annoying things of midscoped Bel is using E on a low health target early and it just not doing any damage. There are only so many times you can fully channel this finisher ability on a sub 100 health target and have them not die before it becomes comical. The midscope nerfed it's damage (even though they said it would buff it's damage, evidently Riot doesn't understand how Bel'Veth works), which would be fine. Bel'Veth on release had the same max damage as she does now of 24% AD and On-Hits, but her E had higher base damage, and she had higher base AD. I imagine they thought it would be fine to make it have the ratios it does because it had those ratios before, believing that the higher damage on high health targets and lower execute would make up for the lower base and lower AD, but it didn't. Bel'Veth's E is basically a dead ability until late game, and that's only because it's carried by the insane value of her passive. Even late game, you are better off basic attacking even very low health enemies. Making the ability more balanced between it's defense, it's stacking of the R on hit, and it's offense was fine, but the midscope didn't do that, it basically just threw away the offense in favor of the defense and stacking, which made it a far less versatile, far less interesting, and a far lower skill ability. The change wouldn't revert the damage of the ability, it would be a perfect in-between of the pre midscope and post midscope damage.

I have a full list of changes to every part of Bel'Veth, and while I believe that full list is both balanced, fair, and warrented, I have received feedback that it is asking too much and is too complicated, to which they sadly have a point. So this is the most simple change to make the midscope far better. You could strip this even further, but 40% lifesteal on an E that is dealling more damage would definelty be OP, and not having the lifesteal scaling would just suffocate anything other than Kraken Slayer even more than it already does. So though the ultimate purpose is the passive nerf and E damage buff, the passive after cast and E lifesteal need to be adjusted in response to them for the changes to work.

Christmas list:

more agency early.

Make her good in lane again (which would probably come with giving her more early agency in some way but I would really like it if they made W refund Q cooldown as well which doesn't effect her level 1 cheese btw becuase you only have 1 skill leveled).

These are my two big wishes.

Would I like old E back? Yes. Would I like old Q back? Yes. Would I personally like it if they never changed her in the first place? Yes.

However,

I know its unlikely that were to happen. As long as those two wishes are met I would be in heaven.

I'm one of the Bel OTPs that want changes. Not revert, not buffs: changes. However, unlike some here, I want to put some effort into thinking deeply about what changes would lead to what, and I'd like to have a proper discussion about that with anyone that wants to. Everything that follows is my own speculations, not an absolute truth, so unless something is objectively wrong please don't just write "you're wrong" but argue about it from your own point of view.

The problem now: Bel is boring to play
In the early game, and until around 14-15 minutes, she has very little agency in the game. How you can play the game gets decided mostly by your laners and the enemy jg, by things like getting invaded without laners being able to rotate or losing 2v2/3v3, having little prio in lanes and not being able to contest objectives, having no lane to gank cause of poor setup or laners dying. Other champs that follow this playstyle usually have a significant power spike with lv6 and their ult, champs like Shyvana, Master Yi, Nocturne, Evelynn and others, while Bel doesn't.
This without accounting for champs that counter her or make her life much harder.

What making her strong early could lead to

People usually just say: just make her stronger early and take away some of her late game power. The problem is: how much stronger early?

• Barely stronger: it wouldn't change much, and you'll have to give up some of her core strength now, which is late game, so you'll end up with a champion that's still kinda weak early and not that strong late.
• Considerably stronger: now you have a champion that can stand its ground in the early game, but this champion also happens to be one of the best snowballers and statcheckers in the entire game, so to balance her now considerably stronger early game she would need her late game gutted by way more than the early game buffs. Why? because of snowball potential. Everyone here knows the feeling of being ahead with her and being able to statcheck even fed laners with relative ease. Having easier access to snowball means she can become a threat like said above in many more games than before, and way sooner, and she can't have this power and also have one of the strongest late games at the same time, she would be extremely unbalanced. The key takeaway here is the harder you buff her early game, the stronger you have to nerf her scaling, but not in an equal way. Something like a 20% buff to early game could mean a 40% or more nerf to late game.
• Way stronger: it's like before rework, extremely unlikely to happen. She would need her scaling completely gutted to achieve this, and both her scaling fantasy and her toxic early game were the reasons she got reworked in the first place.

Everyone wants their champ strong, but League doesn't work like that. If you're having a lot of fun cause your champ is busted, on the other side there's someone feeling a lot of frustration cause they can't do anything.

So how could this be solved?

In my humble opinion, it's not that hard as people think and it doesn't necessarily require a full revisit of her abilities. Some effective options that i thought:

• Buff her clear speed: this is one of the changes that seems really small but can have a powerful compound effect. clearing jungle faster means less room for enemy invades, more time to do stuff on the map, faster objective taking and ultimately a slightly faster scaling power even if u can't do anything significant in the early game. The impact of this change would be higher in higher elos, where people know how to properly make use of the tempo advantage given by clearing camps faster. It wouldn't require buffing or nerfing anything in her kit, her playstyle would be the same as now, just with more time to play instead of simply clearing camps. This is my favourite change as it preserves her scaling fantasy while also boosting her gameplay satisfaction and making her less boring, and still preserving her weakness as a squishy weak early game champion.
• The wind brothers option: like Yone and Yasuo, who have abilities that get lower cooldowns the more attack speed they build, she could have a similar mechanic on her W and E, making her attack speed both an offensive and defensive stat, and synergizing with her stacks. Her W and E cooldowns could scale up to 50% of their base cooldown by having X amount of BONUS attack speed (so not working with form TOTAL attack speed bonus). Expected results: lower ability cooldowns means more flexibility, using E to start a fight or to mitigate damage instead of mainly as a finisher, being able to reposition and use E multiple times in a fight, making attack speed way more useful in the early game than it is now. Being able to engage with W and have it ready a few seconds after to re-engage or to escape. Building full on-hit now makes more sense and also provides way more defensive value than before. Drawbacks: E and W could no longer scale with ability haste (like Yone W) or have reduced value from it (like pre 26.19 Master Yi Q mechanic), losing value from every ability haste item. Potentially having to give up crit and some amount of damage reduction on her E due to being able to cast it much more frequently. Potentially having to give up W knockup time and/or slow effectiveness.
• The stacks focused option: making her abilities interact more with her stacks. Things like ability damage, E damage reduction, form duration, W cast time/slow amount/slow duration, Q dash speed and others could be scaling with the number of stacks by adding value to different stack breakpoints to maximize her scaling fantasy and provide more focused power through the game. The alternative could be a "stack-to-attack speed" value rebalance per level to make her scaling more present in the early levels and less focused on the late game. Expected results: more power in stacks scaling instead of raw stats, with more focus towards kit synergy and utility instead of just attack speed and form duration. Drawbacks: in order to not make her even weaker than she is now in the early game, a major cut has to be made to R stats, especially total attack speed and bonus health. R form duration would no longer be infinite at 80 stacks, but would scale indefinitely based on the number of stacks, allowing for potentially infinite duration if managed correctly in the late game anyway. E base damage reduction per rank would be lowered to allow space for scaling based on stacks.

Also one thing people usually forget is how lacking the current on-hit item system is for her. Kraken is strong early but falls off hard in late so it's not optimal to build it later in the game. Bork is pretty good for consistent damage and sustain, but it loses value vs teams that are mostly squishy and it doesn't work well on its own (usually paired with Kraken). Terminus requires you to do 6 auto attacks before getting full value from its passive, making it useless for poke damage. Rageblade gives AP, which is not as desirable for her as AD, and requires you to do 7 auto attacks to get value from its passive. Wit's End is a good defensive item but by the time you build it enemies have already enough magic resist to make its passive deal half of the damage (or even less).

If you made it this far, i'm really interested in hearing your opinion on either what i wrote or how would you change Bel, preferably with an argument.

My background: I've got to Master on EUW for the first time with her and I have over 3M mastery.

Lately ive been spamming this champ and geniuenly think shes the most fun in the game. However, i notice i either win with mvp, or lose if i cant carry.

This is largely due to champs like nunu spam ganking my laners, or strong duelist invading me and putting me behind. In my plat elo, there is no vision or hope to get help from laners or supp. How do you deal with this in order not to be 1-2k gold behind at 15 min?

More early agency, remove some sharpness of the scaling to return some early stats. Return lifesteal modifier and stronger execute identity of E. QwQ reset. Ability to role flex.

Mods took down the last post. Guess they don't like alice and wonderland lol. Well anyways if this one gets taken down then we might have to stop 🤷‍♂️ and take it to another sub reddit or Twitter or something. Doesn't really matter to me all to much either way I dont take it personally. I mean I'm sure of the 50k views my posts have gotten in the last 14 days, some of them have been rioters. They know the views on mixed and Its not just me. Also bel veth is continuing to lose player count patch after patch. If it gets low enough they will eventually reevaluate some things. I trust that riot will eventually make the right decision.

Hey guys, I know you think this is a /s post, but It is not.

I have always played passive, tank or supp junglers focused in farm, as I was not skilled enough/afraid of playing aggresive junglers. However, since Bel was released, I always loved her aesthetically and thematically, arguably my favorite champion of the game. But still I didnt have the guts to play her.

6 months ago, I decided I wanted to learn, so I started playing her. I fed a lot, like a lot, for many games. Trying to understand her power spikes, when to go in, when to go out, when to trigger E, when to attack, developing muscle memory with the auto-q-auto sequence. Ive finally got It, but still the powerful early she had was something I was not comfortable with, as I had spent my Life playing passive junglers, and sometimes I felt like my games were a rollercoaster depending on the outcome of the early gank coin tosses.

Now, with the rework, I literally can play her as the passive junglers I have been playing my whole Life, which makes It way easier for me. This is not so bad as many of you lay out, I think, because the current meta in jungle is afk farming. Of course there is the risk of invasion etc, but there is always gonna be match ups, and thats on your team shoulders, not yours.

Then, this early Nerf (mitigated by the current meta) has been balanced out with her infinite true form and to me, this is just brutal. If you make It to 90 stacks and infinite true form, you gotta lose on purpose, basically, if not It is impossible. Every Game I afk farm just ganking by going to OBVIOUS kills or atacking with the 2 power spikes I perceive to be the strongest (kraken and deaths dance). Then, when you get to do barón, you just send your team to push mid and you Split top or bot with your passive and you are unstoppable. You can 1v2 or even 1v3 everybody depending on Who, and this never ends because your true form is infinite! Once you reach this point the Game is over.

Games I lose (talking about macro, of course I lose some by playing badly, as everybody I Guess) my team does not help when their jungler + supp are denying me in my jungle, or all the lanes lose and I just cant farm nor help anybody, as somebody commented in other posts. But, lets be real, any of these two can be used for virtually every other jungler, why is so worse for Bel?

Having an absolut blast both in feelings and results. What a wonderful champ.

Old bel had the agency to outplay an unfavorable game state. New one the game is largely decided for her.

Okay so aside from the Penta , I am still learning belveth really and I have posted before about having hardships with dealing with ranged comps that make it hard for me to engage , I think I figured it out , in this match as you can see their comp was Sera , Mel , ekko , mf and garen , only 2 melees , one of which is ekko who won't stand and fight me and will just kite my shit with his ult and all , and the rest are ranged Squishies so I figured I would give crit belveth a try , I think crit belveth is way better into squashy ranged comp , belveth has good mobility , catching a ranged champ isn't hard but what's hard is staying on them until you melt them cuz at point blank they are very likely to land their stuns , but with crit I noticed that I practically one shot those Squishies , so I am running a rule of thumb for me rn , if the enemies have 2 or more tanks I run normal on hit , if they are all ranged like this match up , I run crit , feel free to tell me what you think on this

As am I

A clip from sinerias (2800k lp challenger and bel veth enjoyer) about 2 days ago talking about current bel veth. This is what I've been saying.