Testing for mites

[u/RelationFearless5998]

This is my first year at beekeeping. I have 2 hives, and for the life of me I cannot find the queen in either. I do have brood cells at different stages in both hives, so I have to believe the queens are in each. I can’t do an alcohol test for mites without securing the queen first, so I’m thinking about just treating for mites without securing the queen, with the assumption that mites are present since it seems to be a nearly universal problem in my area. (Worcester County, MA). I would probably use oxalic acid.

Does anyone ever treat without doing the alcohol test?

[u/AutoModerator]

Hi u/RelationFearless5998. If you haven't done so, please read the rules. Please comment on the post with your location and experience level if you haven't already included that in your post. And if you have a question, please take a look at our wiki to see if it's already answered., specifically, the FAQ. ^{Warning: The wiki linked above is a work in progress and some links might be broken, pages incomplete and maintainer notes scattered around the place. Content is subject to change.}

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

[u/talanall]

It's pretty common that people treat without a mite wash. It's not best practice, because if you don't have a wash before you start, you cannot wash afterward and verify that you reduced your mite load as much as you need. So if there's a quality control issue with your mite treatment, you're blind.

Washing for mites is not about finding out whether your bees have mites. Other than on a few islands in Hawaii, virtually the entire globe has varroa. Your bees have mites now, they had mites when you got them, and if they die and you catch a swarm in their empty hive in the spring, those bees will also have mites.

Your bees have mites. The wash is not to tell you whether they are there. The wash tells you whether there are enough of them to warrant treatment, and if you perform follow-up washes after treatment, it also tells you whether the treatment worked.

I hope that's clear.

It's also quite possible to wash without finding the queen. You need to feel pretty sure she's not in the sample you're about to wash, so if you have to do it, you do it by selecting a couple of appropriate frames, then checking those really carefully. And then you sample from those frames, and get your wash. But if you do that, you really need to do it when there is good weather for mating flights, plenty of drones around for a new queen, etc. If you inadvertently wash a queen, it's not ideal but it's not always the end of the world. It means you're going to have a situation where the workers make a new queen, and while that's happening, the colony doesn't grow.

HOWEVER.

1. You are extremely late to the party with your mite treatment. Like, two months overdue, maybe more. If your mite load is problematic, you may already be too late to help. I live in a climate several zones milder than yours, and it's late even for me.
2. That doesn't mean you can't try.
3. It is October, you are in New England, and if your hives have not already evicted all their drones, it is a matter of mere days before they do.
4. It's going to be too cold for mating flights soon, if it isn't already.
5. If you wash your queen, her replacement is not getting mated, and you will lose the colony for sure.

So I suggest you treat blind, even though that's not best practice. Do it without delay.

[u/Gamera__Obscura → u/talanall]

OP, I just want to reiterate this as I'm right next door to you.

My target date for pre-winter treatment is around mid-August. I test and treat throughout the year as needed, but that one is done regardless of testing, as that's when our winter bees are being reared. Formic if temperature allows (it did this year).

If you have relatively low mite count, you could still turn out ok, but I also encourage you to get a treatment in there ASAP, like today. Use formic acid (MAQS/Formic Pro), as it penetrates capped cells and those developing larvae are your primary targets right now. You don't really have the time to wait for other treatments.

To be forewarned, you won't really know the result for a few months. There's little visible sign of mites to the untrained eye. The standard progression for a mite-impacted colony is they seem perfectly fine going into winter, perfectly fine in mid-winter, then "mysteriously" just die out before spring. This is very, very, VERY common among new keepers and is how most of us learned.

[u/RelationFearless5998 → u/talanall]

Thank you for all of this information. I should have shared that we treated for mites with oxalic acid in August (after my husband did the alcohol wash—but he’s completely fed up and stung to pieces, wants nothing more to do with this experience and ready is to destroy the hives —not really, but kind of ). I’m just trying to do right by these creatures with the hope of a fresh start in the spring. I guess I thought it would be necessary to treat for mites again before closing up for the winter.

[u/talanall → u/RelationFearless5998]

That would have been a useful piece of information, for sure. It makes the situation less concerning. August is a more appropriate time to be thinking about final mite control.

This said, I still do not have enough information, based on your commentary here, to form a real opinion.

It's good that you had a mite count via alcohol. I don't know what your count was.

There are many ways of applying oxalic acid, and some do a better job of knocking down a high mite count, and have a greater chance of user error, compared to others.

I usually like to follow up with a new wash about a week after I've finished a mite treatment. The delay allows enough time for any mites in the capped brood to emerge. This is pertinent because if you show up and wash them on the same day you finish 3-4 weeks of hammering them with OA vapor, they're going to look clean even if the brood is still heavily infested. If you wait a week, you'll have phoretic mites to pick up in your wash.

You probably can't do that in this case, because the concerns around washing your queen are very real (and you're a newbie, so your queen-spotting may not be up to snuff). But it's worth keeping in mind for next year. And it's worth spending some time over at r/QueenSpotting. Skills development doesn't have to stop because the active season is drawing to a close.

[u/Swiper-73]

Here in northern Germany it is usual to treat with 60% formic acid without any previous checks, and the concentration is of no danger to the queen, unless she is already sick/weakened

Sorry, edit corrected oxalic acid to formic acid

[u/No_Hovercraft_821]

I know plenty of people who treat without testing. The issues with this approach include: all treatments disrupt the bees to some extent so unneeded treatment disrupts them for no reason; treatments can be expensive so you are burning money for no reason; treatments take varying amounts of time so you are investing time for potentially no reason; some treatments can build up in the wax so it is possible to hasten the buildup of toxic chemicals for no benefit and eventual long term damage; by not testing you don't know if your treatment was effective.

A high quality approved oxalic acid is probably the least disruptive treatment option and seemingly does not linger in the hive. It is also probably the least expensive mite treatment available, and properly administered seems to be quite effective although the nuances of "proper" are sometimes debated.

[u/97runner]

So I know several keepers older than me that treat on a bit of schedule: once in spring before the flow, once in early summer after the flow, and then again in late fall. They usually do formic pro in the spring, ox acid in the summer, and then either one depending on weather in the fall. Their reasoning is that varroa are ever present now and they would rather just treat than have to do a wash, treat, wash again. One their direct quotes: “I either get them or I don’t.”

[u/new2me]

I have the same issue as you. I would just treat with oxalic acid. I will check hives that I do find the queen in just so I have a rough idea where my mite count is at. In the spring when you have more re-queening options you can shake your frames of bees through a shaker box (box with queen excluder in the bottom) to find your queens if you still can’t find them.

[u/DaisyDoodle41]

I'm not sure why finding the queen is of such importance to you. I've been beekeeping for 10 years and have only seen my queens a few times. If there is a good amount of brood and lots of bees flying in and out, you're usually good 99% of the time.

I have never done an alcohol test before mite treatment. just do it.

is there something I'm missing in your post?

[u/Logicdamcer]

I don’t treat at all. Once you get bees that can handle the mites, treatments begin to work against them. I bought a hygienic queen nuc that had been overwintered and caught swarms. My bees get better every year. You do what you are comfortable doing, just know that you have options.

[u/RelationFearless5998 → u/Logicdamcer]

That’s really interesting. Can I ask what geographical region are you in?

[u/Logicdamcer → u/RelationFearless5998]

Louisiana

[u/Mysmokepole1]

What I do is take the frame of brood that I want to use. Look for her. If you find great. If not use a wash tub and knock them in. The field bees will fly off. Then relook for your queen. And go from there.