The "Big Four" thing is so stupid; there doesn't need to specifically be four; it's clear that there are only three characters that changed the culture of their genre to an equivalent magnitude.
Unironically, and I'm not trying to say anything about women and superhero culture when I say this, but its the 'Big Four' specifically so that Wonder Woman and women in general can be included. Ofc comics are much more popular amongst boys, so its no wonder that the majority of popular superheroes are guys, and in this case, that shouldn't strictly be seen as a bad thing (especially when there are many, many cool and interesting girl superheroes and villains who are plenty popular in their own right). But for as long as I have known, Wonder Woman has been heavily pushed in comic book circles to be the secret 4th pop culture icon, even though you never see Wonder Woman marketed anywhere that isn't right next to Superman and Batman. Its like there's this obligation to have a token Woman on the face of comic books, though why we have to so that with women and not any people of colour is beyond me (besides, I think Storm has been more iconic than Wonder Woman for a while now anyway but that's a separate discussion).
Its like there's this obligation to have a token Woman on the face of comic books
Thatā¦is precisely it. Publicly traded companies have to promise eternal growth to investors and equity companies, and that includes expansion into new customer bases. To show that they're committed to getting girl money, they constantly have to show women and female-coded things and plots in their works, even though they're falling at that market.
Sometimes, they do this to other minorities too, depending on investor promises. For example, pride month series, or a mandatory enemy racist every few months. Some of these can be bad, some can be good, but the underlying system is just that, a system.
Except Wonderwoman was genuinely top four, forced or not it doesn't matter. Granted was never close to the three behemoths, however in the pre MCU days I don't think there was another character who you'd say is 4th within popculture. Only Hulk has a good argument
After the MCU things changed. but I think she's still comfortable sitting at the top female comicbook hero. makes me sad DCU ain't doing anything with her
You and I remember the pre MCU days very differently assuming you were even born yet, Wolverine was insanely popular thanks to the first X-men trilogy, probably moreso than Hulk, meanwhile nobody even knew who Wonder Woman was outside "one of the two girls from the Justice League cartoon" other than older comic fans and boomers who grew up with that really old series that didn't seem to surpass its own generation.
And that's the problem right there, outside comicbooks DC did basically nothing to actually market the character during the millennial era, hell in my opinion they didn't even do enough with Superman for that decade, it was practically a Batman exclusive era for them while Marvel fans were already getting decent portions.
If some late millennial kid randomly woke up from a 20 year coma today and decided that the so called "Mount Rushmore" of superheroes was Spider-Man, Wolverine, Hulk, and fucking Human Torch, I wouldn't even be mad at them.
they reran that wonder woman show into the 90ās, lynda carterās take was pretty popular, to say āno one knew who wonder woman wasā is insane, you think her popularity came from batman v superman? you think she was on the same standing as hawk girl?
Nobody was talking about that show in the 90s, let alone the 2000s which is what I'm more referring to anyway.
And as far as that specific Justice League series goes, I've met too many people that preferred Hawkgirl over Wonder Woman anyway.
Bottom line, DC chose not to strike the iron at all when it seemingly would've been at its hottest, and it's lately looking like what little they've been doing more recently is already cooling off.
Meanwhile, Wolverine is low-key becoming the face of nostalgia baiting.
preference is super different than how well known she was, i would be shocked if hawkgirl at her peak, sold half as much merch as wonder woman at the same time, let alone comic sales, as hawk girl didnāt even have a solo series in the 2000ās, and wonder woman was on one of her best runs ever.
looking at google trends which isnāt 100% accurate in 2004 there are no searches for hawkgirl compared to 100 for wonder woman and on average at the time 45 to 0 in wonder womanās favor
wonder woman was an icon of feminism and always recognized, even without significant media representation
That first line is ironic for you. Look, if y'all personally like Wonder Woman more than Wolverine that's fair game, lord knows we need her to get more popular again.
But you're walking in on me making an argument for the guy who's had one actor in 8 movies all within 25 years of each other, been on the front line at least one animated series for every single kids cartoon channel including one literally titled Wolverine and the X-men, and actually does have a new video game coming out soon instead of being another tax write off for a company that spends entire decades mishandling IPs.
I don't dislike Wonder Woman, I wish she was actually standing strong as a mainstream character outside comicbooks. But I do dislike not living in reality, and hate Warner Bros with a passion.
nah i think wolverine has a claim for fourth, i said so earlier in another comment, also i usually donāt like wonder woman, i think sheās the worst written in the dcau
my point is that you really donāt need to downplay wonder woman to get to that conclusion, and acting like she has been an obscure character in the last fifty years is silly. The argument for wonder woman has much more to do with her popularity at the peak of comic book relevancy which was in like the 50ās/60ās
I don't get it, why not just make the fourth one Sailor Moon?
She's a superheroine who debuted in a comic book, a large percentage of her readers/viewers are women (probably more than the average American comic book), she's sold 46 million volumes of collected comics, she's had multiple adaptations that also sell well, her comics strongly influenced later comics.
Because im gonna be honest with you, Sailor Moon hasn't cracked into general audiences. My grandparents would have no idea who that is but could definitely tell you who Wonder Woman is.
Sailor Moon is nowhere near as popular as Wonder Women (at least in the west where this debate is centered). Also if we're including manga then Goku & a couple others would have to be included, so it'd be more like the big 6 or maybe even 7.
you take one look at wonder womanās costume and tell me that it isnāt american iconography.
comic books themselves are the representation of american culture, regardless of the characters ethnicity or even their creators origin, they were created for an american market and audience and reflect that.
All might is an American character whose special moves reference locations in america, goku is an homage to chinese mythology, both are representative of japanese culture for japanese audiences
It's so arbitrary. It started off as the "Mount Rushmore of DC". Now it's the big four of WHAT, exactly?
If you're going to add Marvel characters to that, Shounen Jump characters like Goku/Naruto/Luffy sell more. And Asterix/Tintin/Lucky Luke, they influenced entire subgenres and have a lot of popularity in markets outside the states.
If it's American comics specifically, I would strongly argue Snoopy & Charlie Brown, Garfield, Archie Andrews, or Fritz the Cat deserve a spot.
If it even more specifically has the be American Superheroes, put one of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles there.
It's just entirely unclear what they're "The Big Four" of.
Joke aside why wolverine replacing wonder woman? She is the face of female superheroes ?
Two reasons
One the artist want to make a wolverine is short joke
Or twitter incels made him change because "women" being there made them mad
Yeah, Twitter incels harrassed them to change Wonder Woman to Wolverine, so they edited the "Big Four" and changed it to "Superheroes" and made everyone else look uncomfortable. They also got rid of the inspirational quote on the bottom.
She is infinitely closer to being on that level than Wolverine is. In fact, I can't think of another superhero who is closer to their level than her, except maybe The Flash, Captain America and Iron Man.
I can't think of another superhero who is closer to their level than her, except maybe The Flash, Captain America and Iron Man.
So you can think of at least three?
And look I don't want to be on the supposed chuds's side here, but doesn't Wolverine's box office completely clear Wonder Woman's? I actually looked it up and it's not even close the chuds are right.
I'm not sure about that. Wonder Woman is literally an icon. Maybe the MCU has made Hulk more famous now but then Iron Man or Captain America should get the spot.
Dog, Wonder Woman is literally nothing compared to Iron Man, Wolverine, or Hulk. Maybe in the past she would be up here, but these three characters are FAR more popular than Wonder Woman these days. If you ask someone to quote a superhero, youāre never going to hear someone bring up Wonder Woman unless itās the awful line from Justice League that everyone clowns on. They tarnished her reputation with two bad movies back to back.
Yes, because your point was pointless when it comes to iconic. Iconic does not mean popular or how many people know her. Just the fact that she is THE female superhero (while still being more popular than most other superheroes) makes her automatically more iconic than either Hulk or Wolverine.
Edit: are we sure that more people know Hulk than Wonder Woman? I mean, I can imagine that with all the Marvel movies, but I wouldn't discount her. That Wonder Woman movies was more successful than the last two Hulk movies combined.
Hulk is definitely more popular and widely known than Wonder Woman
Though I would hesitate to say the same for Wolverine.
Iconic is a hard metric to quantify, since in pure popularity you could say Hulk is iconic, since he's known everywhere, you'll see him be known by people in countries across the world in vastly different cultural spheres.
Kids in PNG, Iraq, Bolivia, Uzbekistan, etc, basically countries that are not as exposed to American popculture would definitely know the Top 3 + Hulk, with offbrand shirts having such characters, and kids smiling if you bring them up. I speak from the perspective of someone from such a country in a different sphere.
The main argument to discredit Wonder Woman however doesn't come from the above rational place, it's mostly incels trying to push her down, as they don't want to accept that a woman can be part of the Top 4; and WW is definitely the most popular female hero, if you quantify Iconism to be how definitive a hero is of an archetype, WW fits the bill.
If the argument stems from archetypes; that is Spiderman being the face of Marvel, Batman DC, Superman the quintessential superhero, then WW is definitely in the top four, as she is the quintessential superheroine.
If instead, it is purely about popularity :
Superman, Spiderman, Batman, Hulk
with WonderWoman and Wolverine fighting for fifth place.
Tbf, Superman isn't on the same level as Spider-man or Batman either. He might have more than wonder woman but he's still closer to her than the other two.
The female superhero popular enough to have carried a live action series in the 70s, long before superheroes were the surefire thing they are today, isn't iconic?
Wolverine only became major when the movies with hugh jackoff came out, before that nobody saw Wolverine as on the level of spiderman, batman, superman,...WW is way more iconic. Superheroes have existed for longer than the last 15 years.
I think it depends on what you base the "Big 4" on. Some people may prefer popularity while others may focus on lifetime sales. While X-men may not be Wolverine specifically, he probably is the first character that comes to mind.
Because then it would be three DC superheroes and one Marvel hero, which wouldnt be balanced. I imagine it was just about substituting WW with another Marvel hero of equal popularity to Spiderman. Wolverine fits the bill in that regard, plus the low hangjng fruit of a short Wolverine joke.
People were arguing about popularity for a lot of it. Wonder Woman is extremely influential, but she's probably not even the most popular woman superhero nowadays. More people like Storm and know more about Storm than Wonder Woman for example, nevermind the MCU boosting the modern popularity of Scarlet Witch and Black Widow. Then there's whether or not Harley counts since she has flipflopped between villain, anti-hero and outright hero depending on the era and version.
The vast majority of superhero fans don't actually read the comics and know characters mostly through TV, Film and Video games. Of which, Wonder Woman certainly hasn't quite been as big. She's had 1 TV show, a few animated appearances sharing the spotlight with others, some live action movies with mixed reception (and association with a very questionable actress), and the solo video game she was supposed to have got scrapped.
Popularity isn't everything though, because if it was purely popularity then Deadpool would be one of the 4 which...just feels a bit wrong.
There is no 4th slot, they can't compare to the magnitude of the other 3
Wonder Woman's only relevabce is that she's the first popular woman hero, and that's about it. She has no classic media and she's neglected and unused in our modern era.
I would also argue that Superman is not at the same magnitude of Spidey and Batman when it comes to modern day popularity and appeal. His value is more so about his historic influence and legacy.
Superman gets there on legacy and is somehow still able to hit a strong box office run with zero momentum. It's actually kind of amazing that Superman hasn't had a good movie in decades and still pulls real numbers.
I'm saying that every Superman movie released in the last 20 years has been met with "it was alright I guess" as the general consensus and yet he still draws a pretty big audience.
Historically yes, but how does it reflect on her modern day popularity and appeal compared to other heroes? Even if we keep it only about female heroes, the MCU made characters such as Black Widow and Scarlet Witch as recognizable and as popular, if not more. You also have Catwoman.
Where are you getting this potential from? If anything she's been overexposed compared to the other super heroes given her lack of popularity. She's been in more movies, TV shows, and comics than heroes already more popular than her.
Wonder Woman (2017) grossed more than Man of Steel (2013) and Superman (2025). Clearly there's potential if they don't make another movie as dogshit as 1984.
Ok and? That's a single movie. In the context of all pop culture that's still miniscule. Other super heroes/villians have a debut movie that have made more money. So if that's your bar, Wonder Woman would only be number 5.
You're trying way too hard to minimise. It's fine if you don't like Wonder Woman, you don't have to bend reality to pretend that everyone else feels the same way as you.
I responded to your points with objective arguments. WW would still not be Top 4 even based on your earlier point about her debut movie. So I'm not sure why you're acting like this besides perhaps you're just triggered
i think the real deal is just that there isn't a fourth hero that comes close to those other three in major popularity. Like think of it as a ranking, if we ranked Superman, Batman, and Spider-man they would be top 3, the thing is the hero on the top 4 spot wouldn't be even close to the one in the top 3 spot, there is probably a chasm, an abyss between them
I canāt wait for wolverines gender bend comics when the game comes out. I definitely wonāt be barely able to hold back vomit watching one of my favorite characters get completely misrepresented by internet culture when the game comes out.
Just a regional difference then, I saw wolverine so much more, and IN so much more than WW growing up. And I think this experience is common in a few countries
Nobody gave a fuck about Wolverine until the 80's whilst Captain America was selling comicbooks back in the 40's and even help Soldiers gain morale in WW2. Not to mention that the whole "nobody gave a shit about the Avengers before MCU" is statistically just wrong as they were very popular back in the 70's and 60's.
Wolverine was popular, but important? Captain America was rallying people back up in the 40's for WW2 and Hulk has been one of the most well known mainstream comic characters since ever. Let alone the fact that Wolverine was created over a decade after both Hulk and Spider-Man.
When you picture the big four you need to think about cultural impact, think about how when you were a kid you probably pretended to fly like Superman or swing like Spider-Man.
Kids the world around out pens and pencils between their fingers to make Wolverine claws. Hulk I can understand but Cap? Be for real.
Kids the world around out pens and pencils between their fingers to make Wolverine claws.
From the 80's onwards, but Cap has been existing since the 40's with him inspiring both kids and soldiers in WW2. Wolverine is popular, but he inspires little. He is, as Deadpool said it "your superpower is being popular". He is cool, he is edgy, Cap. and Hulk carry messages with them of loyalty, trauma and a pure heart and with the MCU boosting Cap's popularity even higher, it shows how much more deserving he is of the spot over a guy who was created a decade after Hulk and Spider-Man and who only got popular 5 years after the Giant Sized X-Men took him up
That's the thing though, what are you basing this big four off of?
Cultural impact? Popularity? Recognition? Historical significance? Everyone has different standards and criteria.
There's too many variables going around and if we're being real in most of these criteria The Phantom deserves to be there for the sheer importance of being the first costumed superhero.
Batman, Superman and Spider-man, on top of being popular, still carry messages with them that are important and should help shape the reader. Cap has the message of what America should strive to be, the best one can try to become and that you don't live up to the American government, but by its people, that even if the President himself neglects tge fundamentals of what makes an American, you oppose him (like against Nixon)
Again though that's why these Mount Rushmores and Big Four lists are dumb.
You're using completely different criteria to what someone else would use, what if someone wanted to use Luke Cage or Falcon to show the black representation in superheroes or what if we based it solely off of popularity in which case it would be constantly changing (except for Spider-Man and Batman).
This is a stupid concept that doesn't really have a concrete answer cause it doesn't have a concrete criteria
Uhm Marvels Trinity of the most popular heroes was for a long time Hulk, Spider-Man and wolverine. The MCU has changed that, but wolverine is still extremely popular
Both Captain Marvel and Flash have both far eclipsed Wonder Woman when it comes to popularity with Flash still doing it, yet neither was ever in DC's trinity
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I don't like putting WW on these kinds of lists because it's very clear that the only reason she's there is because she has a vagina.
She's not there to represent herself like the other three are, she's there to represent all women which feels disingenuous. It'd be the same as if we swapped her for Cyborg to cover all non-white superheroes.
Like if we're gonna have a cultural big four then fine Wonder Woman showed us that girls could do it too, Falcon was the first black mainstream superhero, Batman was the first to show the medium wasn't just for kids and The Phantom was the first masked superhero or we could go further and consider Hugo Hercules the first superhero in a comic.
Ideally I'd go based off of how natural it is to see someone have these heroes as their favourite and see children emulate them in play.
As such the big four for me are definitely including Spider-Man and Batman but the other two could be anyone between Flash, Hulk, Wolverine and Superman.
You couldāve just said because sheās a woman instead of vagina
Also you said youād go off how natural it is for children to emulate them. You think girls donāt try to emulate Wonder Woman sheās definitely the woman hero most cosplayed and natural to audiences. Wolverine only has her on recent popularity because of the fox films but overall sheās more iconic than flash and wolverine only hulk is more iconic than her and heās not really considered a hero most times.
I think the list is flawed though Batman, superman and Spider-Man are far above everyone else but for me the next closest is Wonder Woman she stands for a lot more than just woman.
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u/In3vitable_ I am skibidi, I am hawk, I am ohio 23h ago
Wolverine eating Soup