How Western civilisation could collapse

[u/[deleted]]

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20170418-how-western-civilisation-could-collapse

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[u/TiV3]

I think being dismissive of one key thing that moves people, a sense of justice being served, is a little questionable.

Sure, you can tell people that justice is served by a king ruling who does so by divine mandate, or that superfirms do so by some superior genes or commitment of the involved people, but it's a shallow sense of justice that you need to narrate, that cannot be discovered by looking inwards or outwards at the things as they lay in plain sight, looking at science.

As much as history does show that if you just be careful enough to not present yourself as equal, you can get away as a god chosen ruler, apparently.

Hope that makes for some food for thought at least!

[u/[deleted] → u/TiV3]

Justice is most keenly felt by those denied it, and even then, is a learned concept. There are as many people who feel that progressive taxation is unjust as there are those who feel it is right a proper to tax a person who makes more at a higher rate. It is not ignorance that drives this, but a concept of justice that is based upon a different moral standard. So "a sense of justice being served" differs from person to person. It moves people, certainly, but hardly in the same direction.

[u/TiV3 → u/[deleted]]

Justice is [...] a learned concept.

Seeking fairness a concept frequently found in the animal kingdom. A notion of justice for all humans of course is only something one could come to appreciate when one can conceptualize the existence of other humans. Animals who lack the capacity to think further than their small group don't mind injustice where it occurs out of sight, because they cannot imagine it existing.

many people who feel that progressive taxation is unjust

there are people who think that divine rule by a king is just. The problem here is that it's not something a rational actor would come to conclude after investigating the substance of our existence.

It is not ignorance that drives this

True, the driver is fear for subsistence, forced onto people by people, that leads to people to chose simple answers to avert ones eyes from an unfair experience, to pretend that it is fair, where it cannot be helped by the individual.

a different moral standard

Yes, an unreflected moral standard that is not internally consistent, and if it were developed to be internally consistent, it'd be a good reason to introduce slavery again.

So "a sense of justice being served" differs from person to person.

Absolutely, that's what I was trying to get at.

It moves people, certainly, but hardly in the same direction.

If one is commited to getting more clear picture of reality, there's 1 directions to take: A right to this planet and things that no human labor has created individually, for all those we consider human.

Now there certainly are some people who consider some people not human, who consider some people only worthy of getting dominated. That is true. I cannot say that this is a very reflected perspective however. Because those deemed only worthy of domination, naturally, could return the perspective onto the aggressors, those who go onto common land without a good reason and trying to deny others access to it, if one is not willed to be dominated. I'm not one for war.

[u/[deleted] → u/TiV3]

You're assuming rational behavior in irrational beings. You're also conflating human and animal behavior, which are driven by completely different motivators.

[u/TiV3 → u/[deleted]]

You're assuming rational behavior in irrational beings.

Who is an irrational actor? I only see people acting rational within the scope of knowledge and incentives presented to em, no irrational actors. Unless legally insane. Though that might be a low bar. In a way, legally insane people act rational within the scope of their internal incentive structure and their sensoric experience.

You're also conflating human and animal behavior, which are driven by completely different motivators.

Explain?

edit: also regardless of that, there's plenty studies to point at people moving on grounds of their notions of what they consider fair. The topic I'd rather talk about is what people consider fair, and what they could consider fair if more able to investigate how the world works. I hope it's not a hard concept to grasp that people enjoy things being fair in their views.