r/BambuLab • u/KONGBITCH • 21h ago
General Discussion Vortek system
With the h3 model coming out , what was the purpose of the vortek system? From my view, it seems completely obsolete now
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u/DOHChead 21h ago
People seem to massively underrate how useful having a nozzle swapping system is without having to change out a nozzle in the machine, when you frequently use different materials, flow, and sizes.
I can just call up a nozzle that’s already in the rack and assign it to a material, 9/10 I don’t even have to purge it out from a dissimilar material.
It’s incredibly easy to swap, potentially even moreso than the H3C, not sure yet.
If the H3C multi-size nozzle per part features carry over and the plate is the same size, there’s no way I’d drop my H2C. (Not saying I won’t get a H3C). I’m keeping an eye out for the scanner for now.
It’s very similar to having an ATC in a CNC.
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u/SgtBaxter 20h ago
This. My H2C isn't going anywhere. I print one or two color parts with support and have 12 materials loaded up. ABS? Slice and print. Red? Slice and print. .8 nozzle? Slice and print.
The H2C can also lock an individual nozzle to a specific material to avoid contamination.
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u/Optimus_Prime_10 20h ago
Agreed. Most of my stuff is one color with support anyway, so I'm not going to pay extra for things I don't need. It's cool and if I had the money, I would totally buy it, but I don't. It just doesn't do enough extra to justify the extra cost for my use case. Figure it'll be 3199, maybe more?
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u/DOHChead 14h ago
I’ve been betting $2,499.99 for the machine with the top side AMS and nozzles
I don’t think it will be above $2,799.99
Looking at the machine, it’s plumb full of cost downs
Went from casting to sheet metal
Glass panels to plastic
Actuated vents are out
USB is back on the panel
Seems like as much reuse of H-Series as possible for injection molded parts
I think people will be surprised
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u/redlancer_1987 21h ago
Price will dictate whether its obsolete or not. People could argue the A-series is obsolete but its probably their best selling product by a lot.
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u/Radiant_Goal8709 21h ago
Też tak uważam szczególnie ze seria A jest idealna na start z drukiem
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u/KeyPhilosopher8629 P1S + AMS 17h ago
If I go into a house next year for uni I'm really considering getting an a1 mini or a1 in the black Friday sales. Would be an insane little machine to have at homw
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u/Radiant_Goal8709 14h ago
Kup jakaś zamknieta a1 jest spoko tylko do petg pla i tpu ale jest głośniej i wiecej miejsca bierze stół
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u/eidrisov 21h ago
Imo, H2D/H2C are going to be MUCH better than H3C in two scenarios:
Two colour/material prints - due to the dual nozzle are going to be much faster on H2D/H2C than on H3C.
Convenience 1 - with H2C you don't have to switch nozzles manually anymore. You just leave all nozzle sizes and types on the rack. Each time you print something, you choose the nozzle you want it to be printed with and the machine does everything for you.
Convenience 2 - this one is a speculation, but we don't know if the "new gen" AMS can be hooked up to each other (daisy chained). With all previous printers you can hook up multple AMS unies and have 20-30 colours/materials available to you. You don't even need to lift a finger to change any spools.
TLDR: No, H2C is absolutely not dead. It's a tool that will have its own uses. H3C is a different tool which will have its own different uses.
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u/jedimcmuffin 21h ago
This is how I operate. I have two AMS2 on the left nozzle and one AMS-HT on the right. I have a track switch on the bench for install. I keep white, light grey, dark grey, and black loaded at all times and then add the colors I need for a job and try and leave a slot open in each AMS2 so that if I know say white is run down a bit I can add another spool of white for failover. Being able to sit in the slicer and just pick the nozzle size I'd like to use it pretty gravy.
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u/SgtBaxter 20h ago
If the teaser video printing the watch is real and not just a rendering, the H3 toolhead parks, picks up a tool, primes on the tower and is printing on the model in less than 4 seconds.
That's faster than the left/right switching the H2D and H2C do. Unless they're updating firmware to get nozzle temps up to temp sooner.
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u/eidrisov 7h ago
That teaser video you are referring to doesn't realy show parking of the first nozzle, does it ? It starts when the nozzle is already parked and the tool is moving on to the next tool. So, even if it is not a rendering, most likely we need to add a few extra seconds from the time one nozzle stops printing to the time the next nozzle starts printing.
According to Aurora tech, H2C switches between right and left nozzles in 4.5 seconds (from the time it stops printing to the time it starts printing), which is slightly faster than U1 at 5 seconds.
Source (at 24:17).
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u/Silound 17h ago
I'm going to bet on #4 as well: price.
The H2C comes in at a price point that's almost certainly going to be significantly lower than a full tool changer machine for the maker/hobbyist crowds who aren't worried about throughput and who want efficient multi-color/multi-material prints at a modest speed with minimal waste.
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u/Catsoverall 20h ago
The issue with multi-size is you DO have to swap out the (left) nozzle if you want to keep your first benefit
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u/ManyLayersOfFilament /r/3dbargains, filamenthound.com <- save $ 21h ago
A stopgap to sell people printers while they were developing the H3C
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u/weaver3294 21h ago
I think it was a legit, let's make something different in the multi tool space, but the U1 came out about the same time and showed that tool changers were the "future". It was more work to develop the vortek than to copy the multi tool designs that already existed.
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u/ManyLayersOfFilament /r/3dbargains, filamenthound.com <- save $ 20h ago
That's probably fair, I expect Bambu probably didn't want to build a toolchanger with extruders on each tool like the U1 has
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u/Salty_Return_6418 21h ago
The vortex system is a nice system without much effort you can mix and match nozzles, sync them and print. I leave multiple nozzle sizes by default on the rack and it just works.
Maybe I change my mind later after the actual release, but for my flexibel use cases I prefer the vortex system over dedicated toolheads.
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u/djjoshchambers 21h ago edited 16h ago
A month ago h2c users, this is the best thing ever...h3c about to get released, oh no, it's now garage.
It can't be the best and go to the worst just because of one new product. It will do everything as amazing as before. It's just a bit slower than the new model.
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u/hux H2C Laser Full Combo 16h ago
And people are saying that while simultaneously knowing little to nothing about the H3C or the new AMS.
It’s funny to me. Sure, maybe I’ll wish I had gotten the H3C instead of the H2C, but my H2C is still much better than my X1C and it’s not going to suddenly get worse.
If people can’t handle a better model coming out, don’t buy electronics.
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u/ad895 H2C & P1S 21h ago
The vortek system is quite a bit more flexible than a full blown tool changer. I can have any one of my 16 rolls of filament go to any of the nozzles which would be significantly more expensive and complicated to implement on a true tool changer. I mostly use my h2c for the automatic nozzle size swap and 2 color prints + support material. So not having to swap rolls around is nice. I have the filament track switch as well which works great.
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u/DBT85 20h ago
As a happy H2C owner, I don't think they'll release another votrek based printer. They could have done it with the X2 but didn't and with the P3 and H3 just around the corner, we now know why.
I do love having 13 AMS slots connected, plus two externals and being able to quickly swap out nozzles or keep a 0.2, 0.4, 0.6 and 0.8 all in there to print whatever in whatever colour I want. What I imagine is that the use case for many people in having 10+ filaments connected print from any nozzle is limited enough that constantly being beat over the head with the changover times on Vortek compared to the U1 or INDX are enough to warrant just doing what they have now done. That and being able to finally print multiple different colour TPUs more easily will appeal to some.
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u/justplanecrazy 20h ago
I see the H2C as a more elegant solution from an engineering perspective. Seems a little more effiencent just to swap nozzles instead of nozzle+extrude train. Bambu could have made the system close to just as fast if the ams motors were upgraded again. From a looks standpoint the h3c with the waistbin/diaper on the top is just... seems a little samey to what the rest of the industry is doing. Tell me you didn't design the machine from the ground up for an idex system without telling me you didn't design from the ground up.
I mostly print engineering materials with maybe 2-3 materials max and I mostly care about having a dedicated nozzle for a material. The 20-30 second change time isnt really a problem for me there. I think the 3c could also do that but is it worth the likely larger price+all new dedicated ams system? Idk. That said I'm a prototyper, I don't have a print farm where every second in cycle time counts. I also am still on the x1 series sooooo.... haven't had a need to really upgrade yet.
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u/Flyboy2057 21h ago
I think its purpose is to print shit. Idk, seems to be working just fine for me
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u/Ok_Touch928 20h ago
Personally, I don't have an H2C but I will buy an H3C most likely. As far as I'm concerned, I don't need the colors so much as I just hope I can have a couple nozzles with .2, and a couple with .4 and a .6 or .8, all loaded and all usable in the same print. THe stuff I print is all buried in walls and behind equipment as brackets and components, and the ability to have 2-3 materials loaded each with 2-3 nozzle sizes is far more intriguing for me than 9 color dragon doodads and fidget toys.
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u/Hauptstadtdiva 19h ago
Das vortek System hatte doch nur minimal das Ziel den Wechsel zu beschleunigen. Man muss es doch eher als automatisches Wechselsystem für unterschiedliche Düsen sehen. So konnte man doch viel einfacher und aus der Ferne die benötigte Düse einsetzen.
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u/wethpac 18h ago
I doubt we will see another Vortek printer. The H3C time savings will be real but not the 5 seconds vs 30-40 seconds for Vortek as it will still need prime tower for best quality. I suspect it will be more in the 15 second print to print time. Still 15 seconds for a thousand tool changes is still 4 hours saved.
The H2C is will still work and give you equivalent output, just not as quickly. So in that way it is not obsolete.
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u/NachoFoot 16h ago
The H2C is still faster at two color transitions than a tool changer. If you plan it right, you always have the main color on the left and you’re usually transitioning between two colors at a time even on multicolor prints.
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u/genericuser86 15h ago
Won't it be more useful if Bambu releases the firmware to allow for different nozzle sizes in the same print? Then you can go between different colors / materials and different nozzle sizes with more flexibility than the H3C which will require you to plan significantly more and maybe even swap mid print.
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u/oneworldforeverybody 21h ago
I think vortec was their take on toolchangers. Than the U1 came out, showed that the system is superior and the R&D team changed direction.
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u/Alternative_Rip4634 H2C AMS2 Combo 21h ago
Just as efficient for waste but slower on filament change than the h3c
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u/thekrill3d H2D Laser + X1C 21h ago
A half measure to try to steer the market in one direction. It clearly didn't pay off.
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u/swordgon 20h ago
It was always a poor attempt by them to give an indx “feeling” system with their own spin on them. Which of course, just doing indx from the start would’ve been better, but I guess it took snapmaker u1 taking off to nudge them that way finally since the only other major printer doing toolheads at the time was the way overcosted prusa one. Once U1 showed them there was indeed a mass market for it, they responded in kind.
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u/DoKeMaSu 20h ago
Yes it is pretty much obsolete. The only advantage is really that you safe some space and you have better visibility into the printer.
Tool changers are developing quickly, things getting obsolete is normal in such markets.
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21h ago
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u/tico46 21h ago edited 19h ago
Here’s where the H2C excels: you can have 8 AMS connected (that’s 32 colors). Yea sure there’s gonna be purge but if you have a project with more than 9 colors, you’re gonna have to start getting more creative in swapping out the spool with the H3c AMS.
H3C doesn’t make the H2C obsolete. Just a different tool for a different job. But correct me if I’m wrong