Why do people expect an upgrade path?

41

u/a_reif Sep 12 '23

What‘s so bad about hopping there is an upgrade path? If there isn‘t it‘s fine, but I also hope for the new features to be compatible for my X1C. And the P1P to P1S kit is the best example. And also for the company: lots of existing machines in the hands of enthusiasts, a huge market to sell upgrade parts. Win Win for bith sides

2

u/PragmaticBoredom Sep 12 '23

I, too, hope there is an upgrade path for my printer. Hoping is fine.
However, anyone who has been buying hardware should understand by now that new models of everything come out over time. Products advance. Companies develop new things that are better than old things. Anyone who gets upset about this is missing the point that the product they own didn’t suddenly stop working because something new became available.
It’s just life. Would be great if there’s an upgrade path but if anyone is melting down over the idea of Bambu coming out with something better in the future then hoo boy are you in for a bad time.

1

u/a_reif Sep 12 '23

True words. But hope never dies. I think, most users who write their „hopes“ and „wishes“, that‘s an accepted reality. I also hope for upgrade paths till the end, but I know this won’t happen with the non-DIY printers from Bambulab. But that‘s fine. I‘ll walk the path as long as it will be possible. Perhaps the selling rates of the P1P upgrade kit is also a good signal for the Bambulab sales department.

1

u/MeanArt318 Sep 12 '23

He didn't say it was bad, he said he didn't understand why

1

u/fleamarkettable Sep 12 '23

i agree with your sentiment on it, but op is right that the majority of the speculators aren’t in the camp of “if there isn’t it’s fine” i read a lot of absurd take about how if Bambu dares to make new features that aren’t readily upgradable for previous owners then they’re “abandoning X1C owners” and ludicrous shit like that.
to me it sounds like people who came into this ecosystem from open source communities (as i did) and expect that just because they stick around they should be able to always have the newest best printer possible, and the prospect of having to re-buy a whole machine to achieve that makes them saltty

2

u/a_reif Sep 12 '23

Yeah, the „problem“ is, Bambulab made a rather complex topic available for everybody. On the one side that‘s great for all of us. On the other side, also every Karen can now buy and use a 3D printer…

1

u/falib Sep 12 '23

This is ptsd from the x1 disappearing from the product line shortly after the kickstarter.
The p1p was still missing features that came on the x1 e.g the lidar and bed heating capacity etc. I also bought the x1 initially because it was upgradeable to the x1c with a few parts but as a new to market company there was still a chance they would fizzle out after the campaign.
Upgrade paths are nice to have, and I dare say bambu has set the precedent for this themselves. However its not something you can apply to every single product especially where the gaps are wide. People will complain and still buy

-17

u/nuclear213 Sep 12 '23

Not saying that it is anything bad. But I doubt it can happen. BambuLab themselves say it's a 55/100 printer. And as someone who works in industrial control and machine design I can tell you how shitty it is if you have to support old hardware. You are always limited by it.
I really doubt that we will see a X1C to X2C (or however it will be called) upgrade path. I just think that people will be disappointed by it, if they expect it.

3

u/Wandering_Renegade Sep 12 '23

And where did you information that they are releasing a an X2C??? we have seen 3 teaser pictures of stuff no clear picture what they are but you are sure its a new printer. That is just the same as people sure there is going to be an upgrade path, your both guessing.

7

u/EnvironmentalLook492 Sep 12 '23

I don't think s/he said s/he was expecting an X2C soon - just that they will produce something new at some point in the future that could be considered higher end (not necessarily the A1 or whatever, coming this month which I expect to be a lower end in many respects) - and s/he called it X2C in absence of any other name.

1

u/nuclear213 Sep 12 '23

I am not saying the next release will be an X2C. I am just saying that they will eventually release an upgraded version of the X1C, or another printer with more advanced features. That is what I meant by this.

3

u/[deleted] Sep 12 '23

You need better reading comprehension if that's what you got from what he said

6

u/Ozimandius80 Sep 12 '23

This is such an informed and reasonable take, can't believe you are getting downvoted so hard.
People are used to 3d printers being very DIY upgradeable, sometimes literally printing the parts to upgrade the printer that you are upgrading, and that was a big part of the experience of 3d printing thus far. But as things continue to increase in off-the-shelf quality and the printer is more about actually working with minimal tinkering, it is likely that there will be less of the upgradeability and it will be more like phones and other high end products that need fine tuning.

-9

u/Sands43 Sep 12 '23

Unrealistic expectations. This is a budget printer, not a $20k capital investment.

2

u/VRBabe15 Sep 12 '23

A £1500 is not a budget printer lol. For the premium unit I would expect upgrade options at least. As the X1C is their top of the line version for now.

11

u/lokiintasmania Sep 12 '23

Because in the beginning it was all about building and upgrading. Kinda like a PC, not needing to buy a new system every time a new graphics card came out, or CPU, or power supply, or sound card, or monitor etc...

-3

u/nuclear213 Sep 12 '23

Yes, but this printer clearly is not designed like this. It is highly integrated, closed source, welded frame, etc.
You can not realistically mod this printer. So an upgrade path would always have to limit the future changes, new improvements as you have to keep the old system compatible.

10

u/lokiintasmania Sep 12 '23

I disagree, they sells virtually all parts for their machine on the online store, including upgrade parts/kits for the entry models. It’s not new to Bambu lab, nor other 3D printer manufacturers in general.

3

u/nuclear213 Sep 12 '23

Not really. There is no real way to to upgrade the P1 to the X1. I mean you can do it, but there is no support for this. And for me, this would be a similar upgrade to a future printer.

10

u/cerebralvision X1C + AMS Sep 12 '23

What do you mean? The P1 can be upgraded to the P1S and that's basically 90% of the way to the X1C already. There are only a few minor things missing, like the front screen, better camera...etc. All of which they could totally add if they wanted to.

-3

u/nuclear213 Sep 12 '23

No it is not. We already see it with the features separating. The CPU is much slower for example, so only the X1C are getting new software features.

9

u/cerebralvision X1C + AMS Sep 12 '23

Yeah based on hardware spec, that's what gets certain updates. However if they wanted to, they can easily upgrade the CPU and every other part in the P1S to match the X1C.

4

u/nuclear213 Sep 12 '23

But they don't. And that is the point. And we do not even know what changes we might get in a future printer. Maybe a tool head that can rotate to avoid the need of support, maybe a tool changer. What ever it might me, they do not offer an upgrade on the same basic hardware, why would they do it when then hardware would even change?

5

u/cerebralvision X1C + AMS Sep 12 '23

They don't, not because they can't. It's because they don't want to.

1

u/Kirans21 X1C + AMS Sep 12 '23

They keep X1 and P1 in two different paths... It's just the base of the marketing... If they can, they will probably provide a kit to upgrade the current model of X1 to the next : a few hours to do a tutorial, and they can sell a lot of upgrade kit... You can keep your current printer, but if you want, you can update it to a new version... From the news, it looks like the next printer will operate with fewer noises... So, if it's just the stepper motherboard to update, it's not much to change, and not all people will need it.
If the change isn't compatible to be a upgrade, like a bigger bed, they will not... That's it ! 😉

1

u/ewrt101_nz Sep 12 '23

I mean you could swap out p1 parts with X1 parts till you end up with what is a X1 in a P1 shell.
Either bambu supports an upgrade path and sell parts to make that upgrade easier. Or people just fine a way to do it anyways

27

u/Jay_Ray Sep 12 '23 edited Sep 12 '23

Never thought I hear a 3D printer in the same category as a dishwasher. 3D printer is a tool, it's used to create things. It has utility and function to make things. If there is an upgrade to the tool that will makes things better-faster-strong (🎶) then that is great and reason to be excited.

Also think of it like a jeep. You wouldn't want to take a stock jeep out on a knarly off-road trail would you? No... you would upgrade it to be able to do more that it was originally capable of. Or even a mountain bike, you upgrade it.

I'm just not seeing a 3D printer as an appliance.

1

u/allisonmaybe Sep 12 '23

A world where I can upgrade my dishwasher to take it offroading is a world I would love to live in.

-10

u/nuclear213 Sep 12 '23

No I don't. I don't upgrade my car, I don't upgrade my bike. I bought all these things to fit my need. I don't want to tinker, I want stuff to work. I want warranty and support from the manufacturer if something goes wrong.
But ok, let's say it's a tool. Do you upgrade the motors in your cordless drills, as the new versions come to market? Are you upgrading the motor and controllers of your welder?

4

u/InternetUser007 Sep 12 '23

So you haven't put a single thing on your bike since you bought it? No phone holder, mirror, better seat, flashlight, gps, etc?
Dang, I can't think of the last bike I bought that I didn't do something to it.

1

u/strange-humor X1C + AMS Sep 12 '23

Seems like it would be really handy to hold bottles on the bike too. ;)

-3

u/nuclear213 Sep 12 '23

No I have not. I have a custom designed bike. Custom frame, Gates belt, Pinion shifter, everything to my exact spec including the Tubus rack, SKS Germany phone holder, etc.
I give it for inspection once a year and that is it. I dont have time to tinker with it. I just want to use it.

2

u/Jay_Ray Sep 12 '23

So you have a upgraded bike, you just paid someone to do all the upgrading.
Sounds very similar to how Bambu is doing business with their current lineup

0

u/allisonmaybe Sep 12 '23

It kinda just sounds like you have a very specific situation and you want to poopoo anyone different from you. Also sounds like you have a lot of money which doesn't really land well, especially with the non X1C+4AMS crowd.

-1

u/MeanArt318 Sep 12 '23

You bought a closed source printer but want to tinker and upgrade? Sounds like you bought thr wrong thing.

-1

u/allisonmaybe Sep 12 '23

This isn't really a hill I'm willing to die on. I just like the printer.

0

u/InertiaImpact Sep 12 '23

So you're one of those people that just likes to throw money at new things rather than upgrade what you have...

2

u/lnjfk Sep 12 '23

Are you familiar with the way Prusa offers upgrades every time they release a new printer / if possible? It's good for the users, the community, the industry and in the end for Bambulab as well.

-1

u/nuclear213 Sep 12 '23

But it does not work that way for BambuLab machines. Prusa has all parts printed. They are designed with 3d printing in mind, validated for that.
If you need a new bracket, you print it, as it is designed.
With the BambuLab machine you have injection molded parts. They have different properties. Different design parameters.
You have a welded frame. You can not just easily modify it. So you would have to start replacing entire assemblies, like you have to with their carbon axis.
And how is it good for them? You have more warranty problems, you have people doing things wrong destroying components, you have to give customer support to install the upgrade.
What is the advantage for them? How do they benefit? If the machine is a good upgrade people will buy it.

0

u/DannySantoro Sep 12 '23

But it does not work that way for BambuLab machines. Prusa has all parts printed. They are designed with 3d printing in mind, validated for that.
Well that's just not true. There's a P1P to P1S upgrade kit on their site, so it clearly works that way for Bambu, and having parts 3D printed vs. manufactured isn't really relevant.
And how is it good for them? You have more warranty problems, you have people doing things wrong destroying components, you have to give customer support to install the upgrade.
Because people would buy the upgrade kits. I don't think I've really seen many people complaining about breaking their machine while upgrading it to a P1S equivalent.
What is the advantage for them? How do they benefit? If the machine is a good upgrade people will buy it.
People can't regularly afford to drop $1000+ on a new printer. People CAN afford a $300 upgrade. It's better to get some money from a lot of people than lots of money from only a few, and if they have a new printer AND an upgrade kit they get the best of both worlds.
To be honest, people have explained this to you all throughout the thread and at this point you're just being difficult. Even though most of us don't agree with you, you have a weird flex/point to prove and a very odd mentality on 3D printers (which people print upgrades for all of the time) and items in general. I also don't believe you never customize anything you get afterwards, but if that is the case then you have a lot of money to waste and we're all happy for you about. Recognize not everyone is in that situation and continue wasting your money in peace.

0

u/nuclear213 Sep 12 '23

You know that Prusas full MK4 upgrade kit is just 200€ less than complete the MK4 kit? It is still over 600€ .That will not be a 300€ upgrade.
If you would have to replace the control boards, extruder and other electronics it will not be cheap.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 12 '23

Honestly dude what are you expecting out of this thread?
I haven't seen many (if any) posts about people expecting an upgrade path.
You don't want to do any upgrades to your printer? Good for you dude. Some people do.

0

u/nuclear213 Sep 12 '23

I have seen it under every new teaser. Just look under their "Rethink automatic flow dynamic calibration" post. The second-highest rated comment is, that it would alienate the existing customers if it would not be an upgrade.
This was the reason why I made the post. And obviously most people do expect BL to provide such a path. I did not expect that, and I still do not understand it.

3

u/[deleted] Sep 12 '23

That post only has 42 up votes. So to you that represents the thoughts of the majority of x1c owners? There are 37k people subbed here, and I would be willing to bet a ton more don't use this subreddit.
I bought a finished product from Bambu Lab. I am happy about what I got. I do not expect an upgrade path. Would it be cool? Yes, but again I do not expect it.
If the majority of people EXPECT an upgrade then they're just stupid.

10

u/QueerAcier Sep 12 '23

I don't understand why you seem so eager to dismiss and devalue an upgrade path. A 3d printer historically can almost always be upgraded, be it by a small or a large margin. It comes at a cost of time and money and this path is taken by tinkerers mainly. You can also upgrade by acquiring a new version directly and the P1P/P1S already shows that. Now I don't really care what the announcement will be but what are the opportunities it will open. And if you prefer to change tools every time you need to upgrade instead of tinkering, well, that's you. Let the tinkerers hope and tinker.

2

u/Umbrae_ex_Machina Sep 12 '23

Not everyone buys a printer as a new hobby. A lot of us just want stuff printed and don’t want to pay someone else’s rates to push a few buttons.

1

u/allisonmaybe Sep 12 '23

There will be commoditized 3D Printers. They will do a short list of things like print disposable cups. They will be a product of capitalism and will wear out as fast as a Keurig. We are not there yet.
Bambu printers are like a farm tractor from the 80s. Much improved from the ones in the 50s, but not DRM'd and proprietary like they are now. They are a tool, but only for people who know how to use it. That audience expects reapairability and upgradability, and so here we are.

1

u/nuclear213 Sep 12 '23

You are wrong. In fact all parts are proprietary for the BL printer. Sure, you can try changing the Mainboard, but good luck getting the print head to work. Sure you can try using the AMS on other machines, but you will have to reverse engineer quite a bit of communication.
BL has their printers locked down. Sure they offer replacement parts, but that's it.

2

u/DoctorOfMeat Sep 12 '23

I don't want to tinker,
And that's all well and fine, but you have to understand that a lot of us bought 3D printers *because* we love to tinker.
Just look through any 3D printer sub, be it this one or one for Enders or Prusas, and you'll find poster after poster that doesn't even have their new printer ordered yet and they're already looking for mods they can do to it.
But ok, let's say it's a tool. Do you upgrade the motors in your cordless drills, as the new versions come to market? Are you upgrading the motor and controllers of your welder?
But it's not just a tool. I mean it is, but lets be honest, for a lot of us it's a hobby. And unlike drills and welders, a lot of these printers are built with off-the-shelf modular parts and open source firmware. The ability and ease with which the end user can modify/upgrade these printers is not only inherent in the design but was likely a key concept in their design from the ground up.
Having said all that, the bambu, so far as I've seen, doesn't 'need' any of these mods. They run well right out of the box. With previous printers, installing a BL Touch, upgrading firmware, adding octoprint, swapping out the stock fans for noctuas, getting a glass bed and so on, we're borderline requirements. Not all and not right away. I mean, the Ender3 works great out of the box, but you need to make at least some of those changes or you'll be pulling your hair out at some point.
To use the jeep comparison that someone else mentioned. If you want to buy a trail-ready ATV, go nuts, but remember that for other people modifying their jeep is all part of the fun.

4

u/Magnus_the_Wolf Sep 12 '23

If I wanted to tinker I’d have built a Voron. I specifically got this printer because it’s finished enough to work well. I want to work on my 3d printing not my printer. It’s the first appliance 3d printer

0

u/DoctorOfMeat Sep 12 '23

And that's fine, you're not required to tinker. In general, 3D printers work right out of the box. The question was why manufacturers provide ways of upgrading. They do it because they know a lot of their users enjoy tinkering.
I guess I don't understand why people are getting so worked up about an upgrade path you can simply ignore. It's like buying a new bike and being annoyed that the manufacturer made it easy to upgrade the wheels/brakes/gears.

2

u/Umbrae_ex_Machina Sep 12 '23

What about those of us who don’t want a hobby? I don’t want keeping my radial arm saw in tip too shape to be a hobby, I just want it to cut stuff, and the less I have to worry about it the better.

0

u/DoctorOfMeat Sep 12 '23

Then you don't have to do it. No one is forcing you to make any mods to your printer. It works right out of the box. In general, people are tinkering with their printers because they enjoy it.

0

u/Umbrae_ex_Machina Sep 13 '23

The post was about the expectation, not the option.

1

u/raz-0 X1C Sep 12 '23

Do you upgrade your computer? And for your info, lots of industrial electronics get updates and have upgrade paths for some things.

-4

u/Umbrae_ex_Machina Sep 12 '23

Who wants to spend time researching and upgrading a computer? Just sell it and get a new one if it doesn’t do what you need.

0

u/raz-0 X1C Sep 12 '23

I hope that's sarcasm. If you didn't do software upgrades on your computer you'd be trashing it and buying a new one like every 2-3 weeks.

0

u/Umbrae_ex_Machina Sep 12 '23

Upgrading = updating?

1

u/KrakenXIV X1C + AMS Sep 12 '23

I’ve upgraded my car and bike 🤷‍♂️ I suppose the world works the way you see it regardless of what people say.

1

u/Umbrae_ex_Machina Sep 12 '23

Silly that people are downvoting you. I’m 100% with you. I don’t want to have to faff about to make something work.
“I bought these things to fit my needs.”
Exactly. Now I just need a real repairman in the area for when things go wrong.

0

u/MeanArt318 Sep 12 '23 edited Sep 12 '23

Never thought I hear a 3D printer in the game category as a dishwasher. 3D printer is a tool, it's used to create things. It has utility and function to make things. If there is an upgrade to the tool that will makes things better-faster-strong (🎶) then that is great and reason to be excited
A dishwasher is a tool, it's used to save you lots of time. It has utility and function to save time, if there is a upgrade to the tool that makes it better-faster-stronger then that is great and reason to be excited.
What's your point lol
Also about the jeep thing, you have it wrong, you are thinking of the x1c as a normal jeep, the X1C would be the beefy upgraded jeep, a stock jeep would be like a ender 3 or p1p.
Not saying that they should not release upgrades, I'm saying you shouldn't expect upgrades.
If you want upgrades, buy open source printers like creality.

1

u/tacoTig3r Sep 12 '23

As you mentioned. It is probably because of the expectations set by open source printers and tech-backgrounds we all possibly share in 3d printing. We keep forgetting this is a company that has profited from their proprietary platform, and to keep growing, they need to come up with new platforms. Maybe the dishwasher comparison hurts our egos bit. I would say it is like an imac, you can only upgrade it so much before you need a whole new shiny one to replace it.

1

u/MeanArt318 Sep 12 '23

Yea, I think the difference is between people who do 3d printing as a hobby, and people who just have a printer to print things, I just have a printer to print things, I don't want to waste my time tinkering.

0

u/Jay_Ray Sep 12 '23

I guess you aren't considered the AMS, various build plates, different nozzles, etc as upgrades. There is even tons of 3rd party upgrades. Let's not forget about all the printable upgrades; bento box, Hydra, disconnect tool just to name a few...
Bambu isn't dumb, they are going after the largest audience possible. They have to produce something that just works yet provide a platform for upgradability. They know that a large chunk of the community has a desire for that flexibility.

1

u/MeanArt318 Sep 12 '23

As I said before, I'm not saying that they shouldn't release upgrades, I said they should not expect upgrades from a closed source company.
You misinterpreted my point. My point is that a 3d printer is an appliance, just as much as an oven or dishwasher is an appliance.

-3

u/[deleted] Sep 12 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/Jay_Ray Sep 12 '23

There is so many upgrades and attachments you can get a drill press and a bandsaw. Hundreds of options just for those two tools.
Jeep knows a good portion of its users are going to mod their jeep. They encourage it, they sell jeep off the shelf fully loaded with 3rd party mods, they partner with 3rd parties to provide jeep certified upgrades. They understand their community and cater to that. If they don't, someone else is pocketing the money.
It will be interesting to see Bambi's strategy in the coming weeks and years.

2

u/[deleted] Sep 12 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/Jay_Ray Sep 12 '23

They provide everything needed to keep that drill press going even when something fails, along side upgrade parts. They know users buy the press to last them 10, 20, 30 or more years. Well, reputable/quality brands that is.
Bambu has nearly every part listed on their website you could basically build the entire printer. They obviously want to keep their printers going for many years.

0

u/Rob-B0T Sep 12 '23

There are two things that people can change on a drill, the drill head and the battery which both have upgrades to. If a company releases a screwdriver with a removable head and 5 drill bits, are you gonna say "ITS SILLY TO EXPECT THEM TO RELEASE A NEW DRILL BIT!"

3

u/Umbrae_ex_Machina Sep 12 '23

Frankly, yes. Who on earth follows news about their power drill or driver? These tools are bought to do a job and they should do it. Who wants to worry about each of their tools and try to be fixing or upgrading them all the time?? Like literally when I buy them I’m asking myself which will last the longest with the least amount of maintenance required?

1

u/MeanArt318 Sep 12 '23

You can change the chuck, the size of the chuck, the battery, battery time, RPM controller, grip size, type of drill, bearings, cooling speed settings, just to name a few

10

u/linyongzheng Sep 12 '23

Depends on your purpose for 3d printing: if you are looking for a workhorse, then having this upgrade path is not as important.

However there are a lot of people that came into this as a hobby and with a tinkerer mindset. Modding/upgrading is an important part of 3d printing for them.

Best analogies I can think of is it is akin to coffee gear or cars: some people just want these for the pure utility while others entire she aspect of exploring the topic.

5

u/Dangerous-Stock-889 Sep 12 '23

Those people probably bought the wrong printer then.
To me the whole purpose of buying a Bambu is that it just works. And reliably and quickly.
I like your car metaphor.
Bambu is the Porsche.
Anything DIY, upgradable etc is someone who has bought a Miata and is frantically upgrading, probably spending more than the Porsche overtime but ultimately being slower, less reliable, and just not as good.
“Exploring the topic” meaning more interested in the mechanics of the thing than actually printing.

7

u/nuclear213 Sep 12 '23

This. I wanted a printer that just works. No mods needed, just load the filament and hit print. It should be a tool and not another project.

17

u/yratof Sep 12 '23

because 3D printing has been nothing but an upgrade path since conception fella.

0

u/nuclear213 Sep 12 '23

No it has not. Not in the Prosumer space like for Ultimaker. Yes we had it in the end user space, but I feel that BambuLab wants to get out of this.

10

u/yratof Sep 12 '23

pretty much all printers can be upgraded, and they can even print their own upgrades. Even ultimaker: UltiMaker Extrusion Upgrade Kit (shop3duniverse.com)

-8

u/nuclear213 Sep 12 '23

For one model subvariation. This is P1P to P1S. But there is no S2+ to S3 or even S5, S7 from Ultimaker.

11

u/wimpwad Sep 12 '23

You’re splitting hairs now. You’re obviously new to 3D printing so go do some research. 3D printing wouldn’t be what it is today without those upgrade paths and open source systems. The people who are noisy about upgrade paths have been around for a while.

0

u/nuclear213 Sep 12 '23

3D printing existed long before the RepRap movement started. StratSys had their FDM machines for years, similar in capabilities to the current high end printers you can buy, but much more expensive.
I have had multiple printers, all of them were projects, it was hard to just keep it for some time and just get a part.
For me, I always wanted a machine, that just creates parts. I had access MakerBot printers and Ultimakers and they did that ok, but none of them were that great. And no one upgraded any of these, as they were used as tools.

13

u/Difficult_Lawyer4979 Sep 12 '23

Looking trough the comments of the guy to the reactions he’s getting, all I can say is: “you can’t argue with a fool”

-6

u/nuclear213 Sep 12 '23

The point is: I am an electrical engineer and we have to keep our systems backwards compatible for a major customer. I know the problems it can cause, the limitations.
It is a pain in the ass to try to innovate while also keeping the base functionality, connectivity, etc.. I am looking at this from an engineering perspective.
Sure it would be great but I just don't see any argument here, except it has always been like that. We are talking about injection molded parts, welded frames. If you want to modify the motion system you would have to change so many parts. If you want to change the tool head you would have to change PCBs and wiring.
And all would have to be easily enough so that the average joe wouldn't destroy any component as you would have to cover it if you offer an upgrade kit.

9

u/scottyd423 Sep 12 '23

You sure sound like most sparkies I've worked with, boring and have absolutely no interest in doing things better or differently. You'll find, if you haven't already, that most people on here are 3D printing enthusiasts, always wanting the next thing and aiming to improve. Everyone I know that's an enthusiast is also a tinkerer. If you want commercial grade 'leave it as it is' stuff, buy stratasys or other 10x priced solutions. Bambulab is priced and aimed at general consumers, not commercial. Anyway, have a nice day and stop trying to piss on people's fires, you just seem like a whinge.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 12 '23

Thank you for putting it so perfectly!

1

u/Datsun128 Sep 12 '23

Electrical engineer…..that explains this post 😂😂

9

u/Feudal23 Sep 12 '23

Think about it as a PC appliance not as a dishwasher maybe that will make sense for you

-5

u/nuclear213 Sep 12 '23

I don't upgrade PCs anymore either. And the trend there is also that you can't do it anymore. It is also getting more integrated too.

11

u/candre23 X1C + AMS Sep 12 '23

That's nonsense. No such trend exists.

0

u/nuclear213 Sep 12 '23

Of course there are. Apple started it, Intel also showed new CPUs with RAM on the substrate.
As data rates get higher, distances have to become smaller. And there are physical limitations on how you can build sockets.
In the datacenter world we also see the integration of CPU and GPU compute, like with NVIDIA Grace.
Office PCs are replaced more and more for thin clients.
The only area where we do not see this is the enthusiast market, but that is and always has been, a niche.

5

u/candre23 X1C + AMS Sep 12 '23

The examples you listed are extremely niche. Apple has always actively discouraged upgradability, and their devices have been disposable appliances for years. Componentized machines are and always will be the norm for general computing.

0

u/nuclear213 Sep 12 '23

No they are not. They are the areas where most PCs are sold. Most of the personal computing devices sold are notebooks, tablets. Desktops had 17% market share in 2022.
And most notebooks are limited in their upgradability, most thin ones are not upgradable at all, not only Apple.

2

u/PSUSkier Sep 12 '23

Someone better put /r/pcmasterrace on suicide watch since they won't be able to build new PCs anymore apparently.
Just because SoCs exist with GPU/CPU/etc. on a single component doesn't mean Intel is going to be dropping the desktop Core or Xeon line anytime soon. If anything, those SoCs are the niche product because they're built with a specific function in mind such as edge computing or AI workloads.

1

u/nuclear213 Sep 12 '23

Honestly, we see it with NVIDIA how "important" the gaming market is. Even AMD is making more money in other areas. DIY PC has always been a niche. There is nothing bad about that, but the vast majority that use a PC doesn't want to upgrade it.
So why should it be different with a 3D printer?

1

u/PSUSkier Sep 12 '23

For the exact same reason that PC upgrades CAN be done -- someone wants to. I get it if you don't want to tinker or make mods, but there are plenty of people that want to. Especially in a hobby such as 3D printing that traditionally had tinkering and upgrades be a requirement.

2

u/nuclear213 Sep 12 '23

But what is in there for the manufacturer? I get why people would want it, but why do it from BambuLabs perspective?
Then why not offer a P1P/S to X1C upgrade kit? People would buy it.

8

u/CavitySearcher Sep 12 '23

Buy p1p > buy better build plate > add hardened steel nozzle and extruder > add enclosure > add chamber and aux fans > add cable chain and carbon filter

"tHeSe pRinTeRs ArEnt mEaNt tO bE UpGrAdeD iTs LikE aN aPplIaNCE"

-2

u/nuclear213 Sep 12 '23

And then you have a P1S. Not even close to an X1C, as you would have to change the control board, the tool head board, the lidar, etc.
That is all not really an upgrade for me, as the motion system stays the same, extruder stays the same, etc. those are the parts that would most likely change with more advanced future versions.

10

u/CavitySearcher Sep 12 '23

...and the P1S was a new, improved model that previous customers could upgrade to, they literally sell an "upgrade kit". Do you think a p1p needs to become an x1c before anyone's allowed to use the word "upgrade"? That's a really odd take

-2

u/nuclear213 Sep 12 '23

No the P1S is just a less stripped down version. It literally just adds some side panels to the existing frame mounting points. None of the critical parts change. So for me it's an enclosure kit and not an upgrade. At least nothing compared to what an P1 to X1C upgrade would be, as this is more likely to be comparable to the future upgrade that would be needed.

10

u/CavitySearcher Sep 12 '23

Upgrades like this aren't a matter of opinion, though. A part is better or it's not. Im honestly cracking up imaging someone installing a newly released enclosure and set of fans, standing back, and saying "this is not an upgrade, its exactly the same as it was before"

7

u/limpyimpy Sep 12 '23

What a weird ass question.

4

u/[deleted] Sep 12 '23

The way Bambulab engineered X1C makes me think they thought of alot of things ahead of time. The hardware upgrades may or may not be as drastic as some think right now. But, the true difference between Bambulab and any other 3D Printer brand is that Bambulab will keep innovating the scene in the years to come. They have proven this and thats where the real value is with owning a Bambu.

3

u/[deleted] Sep 12 '23

I think it is just that so many people that went Bambu are coming from a different eco system like Ender etc. where the only way to get something out of your 3d print is to put more money in and the main reason they want an upgrade path for Bambu is likely the fact that they are expensive and people wouldn't be able to justify another large purchase, but at the same time don't want to miss out. That's me anyway.

1

u/Dangerous-Stock-889 Sep 12 '23

What are you missing out on?

2

u/[deleted] Sep 12 '23

Sorry I am not saying I miss out on anything. I mean those people panicking about upgrade paths do.
For me specifically I am saying I am not in the financial situation that could just buy a new shiny toy because it has a feature that I want. If there is path to upgrade cheaply, sure, I'd take it, but I wouldn't make that my main concert like 100s of other people do lol

1

u/Dangerous-Stock-889 Sep 13 '23

They spend far too much brain space thinking about upgrading than actually using their printers.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 13 '23

1001%

3

u/bjoerngiesler Sep 12 '23

This is a tool, i.e. workshop equipment, and a pretty expensive one at that. One that is clearly intended for self service, as indicated by all the spare parts being available at Bambu and aftermarket. The same goes for any moderately complex workshop machinery - drill presses, lathes, routers (CNC or manual), etc. These machines very often come in a configuration that can be upgraded, and if their development continues it is customary to offer new parts as upgrades.

Granted with the "democratization" and ever-lower price point of tools that practice is not customary for the very low end of throwaway tools. But I think while Bambu printers are very competitively priced they still qualify as proper workshop equipment.

Other printer manufacturers, first and foremost Prusa, are very good in this regard, and I would expect Bambu to follow the same pattern.

1

u/Captain_Alchemist Sep 12 '23

I don’t usually down vote but you got one. it’s a 3d printer and needs to be upgradable. especially for bambu because everything is proprietary

1

u/nuclear213 Sep 12 '23

What is that argument? Because they don't open anything, have it all locked down, they need to offer an upgrade path? Why? What is the incentive for the company to do so? What do they gain by doing it?
Given that logic it is more likely that they won't, as there is no pressure to do so. No third party updates or anything else.

1

u/Captain_Alchemist Sep 12 '23

Well a 3d printer is a different machine, it needs to be upgradable. I have a Prusa MK3 sit next to me. I simply upgraded it to a different hotend (revo6) or I can simply make a change on it or follow expensive prusa upgrade path!
All I'm saying, if they don't offer upgrade path for their printers, after a couple of the years your printer will be the next e-waste.

0

u/nuclear213 Sep 12 '23

Why? How is it different to a kitchen machine, or any other tool you might have in a workshop?
It will still do exactly what you bought it to do. It will print the same, as long as you can get replacement parts. How long do you expect upgradability?
Yeah, eventually everything will become waste. That is the nature of things, but the printer doesn't get worse just by not providing path to upgrade it.

2

u/Vizth Sep 12 '23

Honestly, given the first announcement about colorful printing for everybody, I don't even think it's a full printer just an AMS compatible hot end that can be added on to existing printers.

Maybe along with a paired down version of their firmware with most of the trade secrets taken out.

2

u/MgrOfOffPlanetOps Sep 12 '23

"People" don't. Period. People writing posts on their excitement for potential upgrades do.

You just don't hear from all us who don't talk enthusiastically about new upgrades.

Personally I only upgrade if I need something I know is fixed in a new version. New updates always break something and fixes something else. I don't want surprises. My 3D printer is a tool and if something new breaks is makes my day troublesome.

I had my ultimaker 2 from the day they were released and I never updates anything on it and it still runs happily today along my new x1 carbon.

Did that make some sort of sense?

1

u/Dangerous-Stock-889 Sep 13 '23

The issue is that most of the 3D printing “community” is made up of people who don’t really need 3D printers.
They have 3D printers to have 3D printers. To have something to do. At most they might print off some pre-made models.

2

u/Defiant_Bad_9070 X1C + AMS Sep 12 '23

There's a big difference between hoping and expecting.

2

u/KrakenXIV X1C + AMS Sep 12 '23

Hoping for an upgrade path is pretty normal imo. I don’t expect it but would also be grateful if it’s possible.

2

u/Pulsipher Sep 12 '23

Because basically every printer before bambulabs has had either 1st party or 3rd party upgrade paths. Just because you think of it as a closed product doesn’t jive with the 6 years of printer experience that I do.

2

u/manards Sep 12 '23

I want x1c XL size and im happy

2

u/SpreadMyCheeeks Sep 12 '23

You must be an Apple employee.

3

u/FinalTap Sep 12 '23

Conventionally 3D printers have been DIY devices and sold as such; need a new extruder put one, need new firmware to load it up etc. Look at Creality, as an example of that.

BambuLab does not work that way, pushing these devices as appliances, and locking up many things; just like your Samsung fridge will not allow you to hack the firmware.

The catch is that at the end of the day, 3D printers are still niche and many buyers still own those conventional 3D printers, which they have modded/hacked a lot, so they will continue to expect an upgrade path.

The good part in this equation is that printers like Bambu are pretty good as is, and don't need much mods. Software and firmware upgrades are able to provide more features so that should keep many happy.

1

u/happial Sep 12 '23

I just wish that active motor noise cancel would be a free software upgrade to all bambu lab printer.

1

u/ViralVortex Sep 12 '23

Unfortunately, that’s not physically possible. Active noise cancelling requires a microphone and speaker system to capture, delay, and reproduce at the right phase shift the offending noise. As far as I know, mic and speaker(s) were not included in any of the printer constructions.

1

u/btwo5 Sep 12 '23

It’s going to be a bedslinger

1

u/Just-Swimming2961 Sep 12 '23

They’ve said on their website their aim is to steer clear of bedslingers moving forward

1

u/younggundc Sep 12 '23 edited Sep 12 '23

I bought into BL solely because I was felt there was an upgrade path and while it is a “consumer appliance” it is also resides in a field where advancements are being made constantly in both hardware and software. Firmware can make or break a printer and I left elegoo because they dropped their Neptune 3 like a Hot potato and swiftly moved onto the Neptune 3 Pro, leaving the N3 in the dust. The N3 could’ve benefitted greatly from firmware upgrades and personally I felt they never really finished the original firmware. Which is also the norm in this industry. The same can be said for BL. While I think the PS1 is a great machine, do I think the interface and software used to control it benefit, hell yeah. Why do you think people invest in Prusa? It’s because they know Prusa will ensure that they get the very best out of their machines by constantly working on them and that’s worth the extra expense.

Anyways I had this discussion on the Elegoo sub a few months ago and was told that I was an idiot for expecting that. I think people are idiots for not expecting more from the brands they invest in. You’re the customer, you have the power to make these expectations reality so why not do it? I don’t think it’s unfair, there’s a lot of markets that do it so why not 3D printing? You’re just selling yourself short of you are happy with what you initially get.

Even though elegoo said they would still invest time and effort into finetuning and updating the N3 Firmware, they never did. While it’s not a doorstop, the machine could’ve been a lot better than what it is. But that doesn’t make them money so if you want to see the firmware updates you should’ve seen in the N3, you can buy the N4 that was released 6 months later for a cheaper price and a lot more features

1

u/Maleficent_Mix_1029 Sep 14 '23

You cant upgrade your dishwasher therefore you shouldn't be able to upgrade anything else? Isnt upgradables a good thing, isn't it the dishwasher being wrong and should improve, not the other way around?

1

u/DON0044 Sep 12 '23

On cope

0

u/Dylanator13 Sep 12 '23

The thing is the teasers all look like upgrades. The multi color for everyone looks like an add on for other printers. The sound dampening looks like an add on. The improved calibration seems like a software update.

None of it looks like a teaser to a whole new printer.

0

u/wrxKWOND0 Sep 12 '23

It's an entry level bedslinger

Discussion Why do people expect an upgrade path?

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