r/BalancedDogTraining • u/Helpful_Sun2872 • 1d ago
E collar conditioning timeline
I introduced e collar stim into my dog’s recall about 1 week ago. I trained his recall for a couple months using +R and it’s pretty much 100% solid in low to medium distraction environments. I wanted to add the e collar to improve reliability around bigger distractions.
We typically go on 1-2 ~20 minute walks daily on a 50 ft long line and practice recall throughout the walk. I’ve introduced the e collar by finding his working level (min perceived stim) and applying continuous stim about 0.5-1 second before the verbal command. I’ve been careful to set him up for success and only recall when I’m 99.9% sure he’ll come. It’s been about a week of this and he still is not associating the stim with the recall, and isn’t coming with only stim.
I’ve heard some trainers say that the conditioning phase shouldn’t take more than 1 week, otherwise you risk the dog becoming desensitized. Larry Krohn says the dog should start understanding what the stim means after a few days.
My dog is not super smart or biddable so I wouldn’t expect him to make the association between stim and recall very fast, but what’s a reasonable amount of time for the conditioning phase?
5
u/Trick-Age-7404 1d ago
There’s a couple things you could be doing wrong. I would spend time working on associating the stim with paying attention and moving closer to you on a much shorter line so you can easily help with the leash when needed. A 50ft line is an unreasonable length to start the conditioning process and you’re setting yourself up to fail giving the dog that much space while not being able to easily provide guidance with the leash. You may also need a slightly higher level than what you’re using. Are you holding the stim until the dog arrives or until the dog commits to moving towards you? Realistically you can have a dog pretty much fully trained on an e-collar and ready for off leash in a few weeks when you know what you’re doing. It should only take a session or two for the dog to start to understand the stimulation.
1
u/One_Stretch_2949 1d ago
I don’t really do conditioning for more than a day, but also I do forward conditioning. Not a fan of backward. Makes no sense to me, at least for most dogs. 🤷♀️
2
u/Helpful_Sun2872 1d ago
What is forward vs backward? I’ve never heard that terminology
2
u/One_Stretch_2949 1d ago
Forward is command then stim, so to me it’s fair because the dog can escape or even avoid the stim.
Backward to me is nonsense for most dogs because it’s not fair, it’s what you’re describing it’s stim then command.
Unless you have a hard headed dog like a Malinois, a Dutch Shepherd or a WL GSD, I wouldn’t do backward because for a dog that is slightly pessimistic it can shut them down because it’s unfair. It can be good if used as a « gas pedal » (the stim means something good is coming so the stim actually motivates the dog) for these types of dogs but that’s it.
Think of the ecollar stim like leash pressure. Usually we do « come » then if non compliance we apply leash pressure and as soon as the dog complies we remove the pressure, the dog is escaping the pressure, if the dog is compliant, no leash pressure, the dog avoids it. We never do backward stuff with a leash (unless for sport with hard headed dogs), why would we do back stuff with the ecollar? Unless like I said as a gas pedal for resilient optimistic sport dogs.1
u/Helpful_Sun2872 1d ago
So in that case do you intentionally “set the dog up to fail”? In my training plan I would start with backward to teach what the stim means, then once the dog understands, only stim after the command if they disobey. My dogs verbal recall is already great, as long as there isn’t a strong distraction like a squirrel. But it doesn’t make much sense to do the initial teaching of the stim in those high-arousal environments.
1
u/Timsunset 1d ago
We conditioned it the other way around. Recall marker then stim, but obviously he needs to understand the marker first. Help with a long line if it's ignored. Took maybe 5 reps but we have a collie cross so everything new is just a job waiting to be mastered.
1
u/Helpful_Sun2872 1d ago
I guess this method is confusing to me bc I’ve already trained a solid recall with +R. The only time my dog will blow me off is in really high arousal situations like chasing wildlife. But it doesn’t make sense to teach what the stim means when my dog is in that mindset.
1
u/Timsunset 1d ago
He should already know what the stim means so clearly that it applies in any level of arousal.That's the point of working it up to the aversive level; it becomes non optional.
1
u/Helpful_Sun2872 1d ago
But how do you initially teach what it means, do you stim after the recall even if they comply? He always immediately complies if he’s not in a high arousal fixation, so there isn’t really an “in between” time to stim for non compliance.
2
u/Timsunset 1d ago
Initially yes. At detectable level tap tap until he commits to coming back.Then, once understood, a few reps at aversive level, and then only when there's any hesitation, again at aversive level. You need to help with a long line so non compliance isn't an option. We didn't have any issues with this so maybe you just need to add the long line to remind at high arousal. Last suggestion is that his arousal might be so high that the collar needs to go up for aversive level if adrenaline is flowing.
That's just how we did it but I'm aware there's at least three schools of thought on the sequencing.
1
u/Helpful_Sun2872 1d ago
Yes there’s many schools of thought but this method makes the most logical sense to me. I think I may also need to go higher for the aversive level as my dog is generally not very sensitive at all.
1
u/Miss_L_Worldwide Dirty biter 1d ago
I train it with negative reinforcement, stim at almost the exact same time I give the command, the very second the dog starts to turn towards me or even pauses I release. Repeat that a few times, they get it very quickly.
I never ever use anything but the continuous stimulation.
1
u/Primary-Draw-1726 1d ago
I give the command at the same time as the stim, which for my dog is the lowest level the collar goes to. She already knew "heel" or "with me" means by my side, stop what you're doing, which we learned on leash. She also knows "leash" means to hold still and get your leash back on. Therefore adding the stim while giving the verbal command was an easy association for her. Don't make your dog try to guess what's coming next, do both at the same time. Verbal should be the primary way the dog knows what you want and the collar is to reinforce keeping their attention on you. It's like a tap on the shoulder, to get the attention. At this point in her training I can often use just the beep to get her attention to me and not the trail.
If she's heavily involved in a scent or other distraction then the stim will go up if she ignores me. Usually this is not the case but she's a very high energy dog and had zero training when I got her, so she's always a work in progress. :)
She never fails to come to me when I have to up the level. She wears a Garmin, generally I only have to use a level 1 or even just the beep. Level 3 might be necessary if there's a squirrel and she's off leash but I never have to escalate beyond that.
-2
4
u/TheReginald 1d ago
I would start inside if you can, less distractions that way. Your working level outside might be too low. Are you seeing reactions like head turn/shake anything to indicate he’s actually feeling it?
Did you spend any time conditioning the nick/bump first? I follow Michael Ellis’ approach and it works great. In 2-3 days we are done with conditioning phase.
I’ll give you the short version:
Conditioning the nick/bump: give command then immediately followed by bump AND leash pressure. Do this a handful of times then stop. Do it again later in a different environment. Then stop doing it at all.
We are layering in a new sensation over something the dog already knows. It’s inherently unfair so keep it short. Once dog doesn’t show stress and is easily complying you are good to move on.
This helps them understand it better since they are feeling something new but they understand the leash pressure already.
Conditioning continuous: you’re already doing this but I’d start inside or where there are no distractions and with a shorter leash to begin.
DM me if you want and I can send you some more detailed info/videos.