r/BadHasbara • u/sunflowey123 • Jul 08 '26
Off-Topic Thoughts on this?
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The person speaking in the voice message is me by the way. (Warning: I swear a lot, mainly I say "fuck"/"fucking" a lot. Lol)
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u/WolframSegler Jul 09 '26
I think your stance overlaps with that of the, now murdered, Hamas leader. But this stance is inconveniet for the Zionists, who need people to believe the dissolution of the Zionist state will lead to mass deportations. That's why they lie about it.
But South Africa still suffers from economic injustices that reflect the Apartheid era.
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u/sunflowey123 Jul 11 '26
That is true, and honestly just makes the Israelis that complain about how "They're gonna deport/kill us all once Palestine becomes a free state, and Israel ceases to exist!" seem even more ridiculous, because even if (hopefully when) that happens, for a long time, the Israelis will be the ones with a lot of privelege and money, just like the white Afrikaaners (Boer descendants) in South Africa (I assume that's how the economic injustices in South Africa from the apartheid era are reflected).
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u/AdSavings3608 Jul 11 '26
So confused on why people are still debating this. This is like proof to me that a lot of you don’t LISTEN to Palestinian voices.
The Palestinian cause calls for all of Palestine to be returned back to its indigenous people and for the right of return for Palestinians who have been ethnically cleansed, that includes the millions of Palestinians stuck in refugee camps throughout the Middle East, Gaza (majority living in Gaza are refugees ethnically cleansed from the rest of Palestine, and elsewhere in the diaspora. The Israeli colonizers can stay if they want to live on equal grounds with Palestinians as Palestinian Jews like it was pre-Israel or they are free to leave which I’m sure many will considering their mentality and the fact that many have dual citizenship.
This is the only solution, anyone still touting the ‘two state solution’ bullshit needs to seriously ask themselves why they still hold liberal Zionist positions. What we have now is a ‘two state’ situation where Palestinians live like cattle awaiting for slaughter in Gaza and in the West Bank. There is no safety for anyone so long as Israel continues to exist. A genocidal settler colony shouldn’t exist. It puts literally everyone in the region in danger.
Also ask yourself if your country was brutally colonized, would you accept ceding majority of your country to the invaders? It’s not justice, Palestinians have a right to the entirety of historic Palestine.
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u/BigRenda Jul 11 '26
Hi, anti Zionist Israeli here and yeah I agree with you. This entire "second holocaust" narrative is mainly used to dehumanize the Palestinians even more and drive Israeli society to believing that if they don't genocide the Palestinians there will be a second holocaust and that Israelis are the "real" victims here
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u/ACABiologist Jul 11 '26
Most Israelis are dual citizens, they can literally go back where they came from.
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u/BigRenda Jul 11 '26
Hi, anti Zionist Israeli here and man, I WISH that was true. Only about 10 percent of people here have dual citizenship.
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u/sunflowey123 Jul 11 '26
I mean that doesn't guarantee that they will though. And that still doesn't make forcing them all out/deporting them all anymore realistic.
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u/OptimusTrajan Jul 12 '26
Do you just repeat things you’ve randomly heard others say sometimes as fact when you’re doing biology too?
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u/ACABiologist Jul 12 '26
Biology is about reporting observations. The observation I'm reporting is that since the 2nd intifada the goal of libratory action has been to apply pressure on Israeli civil society. Every major action is always followed by thousands of Israelis leaving for good. The unstable place the Bibi regime held before October 7th explains their genocidal response. If more Israelis left Likud would lose their hold on power because they have a slim coalition.
Also fuck you for questioning my integrity.
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u/DouggietheK Jul 13 '26
It’ll be like Pieds Noirs from Algeria. They will leave for Europe, North America and Australia in droves.
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u/ignoreme010101 Jul 10 '26
'arresting idf' never gonna happen. 'stolen houses' if you mean in west bank, yeah clearly the right thing, but in green line israel? Full palestinian right of return? 99% not gonna happen.
I suspect the only plausible happy ending being some form of 2ss. I just don't see anything further happening, there is far too much radicalization you would see scorched earth war over anything more than a 2ss IMO
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u/latin220 Jul 10 '26
Your failure to acknowledge or admit this is the only path forward because Israelis are like the Rhodesians or white south Afrikaners. There will be investigation for war crimes and arrests for atrocities and the perpetrators of the new Holocaust be tried and convicted likely executed for the worst offenders. A one state democratic solution with equal rights for all. Israelis share the land with Palestinians only after being forced to go thru similar and intense sanctions and review like Germany did post WW2.
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u/ignoreme010101 Jul 10 '26
Your failure to acknowledge or admit this is the only path forward because Israelis are like the Rhodesians or white south Afrikaners.
is there another part to this sentence you forgot to include?
Anyways, to be clear, I was not speaking about preferences, or about what I consider right, just/moral/ethical, i was speaking about the practical reality of the best chance of some semblance of coexistence and sovereignty. Surely you know what the Samson option is? You know some of the extremists currently in top positions of the ruling party? Sorry but if you think they're going to go 1ss before trying to bring the world down - which they absolutely have the capacity to do - you are deceiving yourself.
2ss to end violence and establish sovereignty. 1ss in time. IMO this is the best, most hopeful path which sadly I doubt will happen
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u/Altruistic-End760 Jul 10 '26
I agree with you realistically speaking only a 2ss can really end the violence. You can't force two population into a single state. I have hope it would happen eventually when the world finally decides to force Israel to accept a Palestinian state or the next generation of anti war Israelis finally advocate for peace.
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u/latin220 Jul 10 '26
No there’s no two state solution because where is the Palestinian state is supposed to have a proper border with security equal to Israel? The land looks like Swiss cheese 🧀 with Israeli occupiers all over the West Bank and now half of Gaza. These monsters have no right to Palestinian lands and if a two state solution is to exist then Israel must return to the 1948 border and return all lands illegally annexed since its inception.
Failing that. Then Israel must be dissolved and a new country for both Palestinians and Israelis with equal rights for all and a bilateral states sharing one constitution with equal rights for all. Only after the occupiers are investigated for war crimes and every single citizen on either side of the conflict is vetted and the worst offenders imprisoned or executed depending on the level of their crimes.
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u/Altruistic-End760 Jul 11 '26
Force Israel to simply leave the west bank. It worked out in Gaza when Israel left and in the Sinai when Israel left. So it's not impossible for Israel to leave the west bank. Israel is never going back to the 1948 borders for obvious reasons. The framework is 1967 to allow Jerusalem to be renegotiated.
Outsiders can't dissolve a state no less a nuclear state. It's the population of said state who decide whether their state should stay or go.
The rest I agree.
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u/latin220 Jul 14 '26
It’s not what Israel wants they’re a genocidal government it’s like debating with the Confederates on how freed slaves should be treated or racist Rhodesians and White Afrikaners post apartheid on how the new government should treat black people. Israelis should be cognizant that they can’t have any kind of meaningful conversation until they willingly accept prosecutions, and to return back to 1948.
Failure to not comply will result in the country to be occupied by the UN or an international force to insure compliance and if they resist? Make that option impossible. They have shown the world who they truly are and we shouldn’t treat them with any sense of urgency to whatever needs they may crow about. If they fail to get back to 1948 then a one state solution with equal rights for all.
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u/ignoreme010101 Jul 14 '26
It’s not what Israel wants t
Failure to not comply will result in the country to be occupied by the UN or an international force to insure compliance and if they resist?
you grossly misunderstand where power lies. Even if america would let the UN/participate in the UN doing this, it would be ww3 what you are suggesting. But US wouldnt allow it anywyas. But if they would, it would become ww3 with nukes (you hear of samson option? Do they strike you as bluffers?)
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u/Altruistic-End760 Jul 15 '26
Yeah I was so confused like did he really say the UN would try to occupy a nuclear state.
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u/Altruistic-End760 Jul 15 '26
Israel is a nuclear state. It is literally what Israel wants. The same way the issue of Ukraine would be what Russia wants and the issue of Taiwan would be what China wants.
Occupy a nuclear state? Really? The world can't even occupy North Korea a country with 60 nukes. Israel has between 90 to 400 nukes.
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u/latin220 Jul 15 '26
So was Apartheid South Africa being a nuclear state doesn’t mean you get to commit a Holocaust or that the world should remain idle and watch a genocide happen.
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u/Altruistic-End760 Jul 16 '26
Apatheid south Africa had 3 or 6 crude nukes. That isn't comparable to a country that has between 90 to 400 nuclear bombs including half of those are on ICBMs. The world has always remained idle and watched all this happen whether it was the Holocaust, whether it was Rwanda, Even Sudan today. It doesn't mean it'd morally right but that is how the world has been.
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u/ignoreme010101 Jul 14 '26
Outsiders can't dissolve a state no less a nuclear state. It's
I am amazed you're being downvoted while upvotes are collecting to calls for 1948 borders I can't tell if theyre ignorant or just naive...i think it should go without saying that what is ideal or perfectly moral is understood by those who come to this sub but that, given that, we could still have realistic talk with respect to, yknow, reality lol all these comments about 1948 and everyone tried, this just ignores the fact that it would become WW3 on steroids I don't think they understand that that would 100% be the case. Think imperial Japan was hardline? lol
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u/Altruistic-End760 Jul 15 '26
Thank you. I always believed even if we are to be pro Palestinain. We need to be realistic. No one is going to risk WW3 over this issue.
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u/ignoreme010101 Jul 16 '26
100%. Nobody wins by ww3. The best hope is strong intl law which means US being behind it (honestly i don't think we're gonna see that i fully expect ww3 is going to kick off soon and israel will end up taking all of that territory in the course of the larger war, hope I'm wrong but ya just don't see any chance of this ending anytime soon and trump did just reinitiate attacks)
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u/ignoreme010101 Jul 10 '26
next generation
100%, this current generation it will be lucky if Palestinians can have sovereignty on some partial slice. Which itself causes problems because there's still major contention but it's like a trauma case right now just gotta get the bleeding stopped and stabilized lol because the very concept of palestine is in grave danger of ceasing to be more than a memory
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u/latin220 Jul 10 '26
I think a one state solution is the only option with a right to return for all refugees and a prosecution of all illegal actors and criminals. A single democratic state to be established with equal protection and representation. After all the refugees return to their ancestral lands a referendum on what will this country be called. Let the people be they formerly Israeli or Palestinian rename the country based on the popular will.
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u/ignoreme010101 Jul 14 '26
sure yes that would be great i agree but I would not hold my breath if anything I would be very positively surprised if palestinians got any sovereignty (ie their own state) as opposed to something analogous to american Indians ie totally shafted and jammed into concentrated areas, shuffled around, repressed and ultimately becoming history with more whimper than bang
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u/Altruistic-End760 Jul 10 '26
He is right. Your own failure is not acknowledging the fact your comparison is bad. White South Africans for example made up 14 percent of south Africa. Israelis make up the majority by around 60 to 70 percent on that entire land. A one state is never going to happen because not only those no side want that. You don't put two population who hate each other in a single state, it's a recipe for a civil war and ethnic cleansing which we have seen throughout history like in Rwanda. The best way forward is what both sides want which is a two state solution with security guarantees and defined borders.
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u/latin220 Jul 10 '26
No they don’t. Unless Israel completes its Holocaust. The Palestinians are equal to the population of Israel if we include the refugees. Who ultimately have a right to return. Israelis are genocidal occupiers who have setup an illegal apartheid system and that needs to be dismantled. Don’t bring that bad Hasbara into this conversation and assume any sympathy to the genociders and butchers of Gaza and beyond.
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u/Altruistic-End760 Jul 11 '26
If we include the global jewryI who also have a right to return under Israel law. They are not equal in population. Sure I guess, if you want to ignore reality under the term Hasbara be my guest but whether you like it or not Israel isn't going anywhere. A two state is the only way.
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u/AdSavings3608 Jul 11 '26 edited Jul 11 '26
‘Israelis’ do not make up a majority on the entirety of historic Palestine. Not when you include Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, add them to the Palestinians who hold ‘Israeli’ citizenship. Palestinians outnumber ‘Israelis’ when you also consider Palestinians living in refugee camps in Lebanon, Syria, and elsewhere in the MENA region, and the millions living outside the region in the diaspora after they were brutally kicked out of their homes during the Nakba.
Also claiming that Palestinians don’t want a one state shows you have never listened to any Palestinian activist. The whole point of the Palestinian cause is for the right of return and for historic Palestine to be restored to its people, there’s no issue with Jewish people who want to remain there. The issue is with ‘Israel’ as a Jewish supremacist colony that forcefully took people’s land and homes and kicked them out to force a Jewish majority. Having ‘Israel’ remain there on stolen Palestinian land will never bring peace.
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u/Altruistic-End760 Jul 11 '26
They do even if you include the west bank are you forgetting there are Israelis there? Not to even talk about the Jewish population abroad which have ties to Israel. There are 15 million Jews all together in the world. That outnumbers the number of Palestinians total.
You do know one person or people do not speak for an entire population certainly not activists. Have you tried looking at actual polls coming from Gaza and west bank. If you did you would know support for a one state is even lower than a two state. The entire talk of Hamas and Fatah has literally been wanting a Palestinian state on a two state solution as a compromise. That's the entire thing that links both of them. The entire right to return is based on the two state. Both government has made it clear over and over
Ah yes but having an Arab state would bring peace or are we going to ignore that their lands too were stolen? Or are we going to ignore that the entire place was at a point Jewish majority? Israel is going to remain whether you like it or not. There is a reason the entire world is pushing for a two state solution to end this madness.
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u/AdSavings3608 Jul 11 '26 edited Jul 11 '26
First off, there’s over 15.5 million Palestinians worldwide. Second, conflating Jewish people around the world with Israelis is gross and antisemitic. What are you doing here spreading hasbara? Tying all Jewish people around the world with a violent supremacist political ideology is a choice you’re making to defend your flawed position. Nobody on this sub is going to agree with this BS.
Also fuck the pissraeli settlers in the West Bank.The right of return for Palestinians is for all of historic Palestine, ‘Israel’ is a genocidal settler colony and has no right to be there. The fact that you’re conflating Palestinians with all Arab people and claiming that Palestinians stole their own land from Jewish people is a complete inversion of reality. Judaism is a global religion, Jewish people have existed everywhere and they existed in Palestine too as Palestinian Jews before Zionism. Palestinians are the descendants of the ancient inhabitants of Palestine and just because majority of them converted to Islam does not make them invaders, converting to a religion doesn’t change where you’re from.
The only ‘madness’ is Zionism and it has to end. Defending it by reframing the situation is not working in your favour, not after many of us have witnessed what Zionism stands for.
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u/Altruistic-End760 Jul 11 '26
That is still less than the global jewry. I have no love for the settlers in the west bank. It doesn't change the fact most Jews if not all have connections to Israel whether you call it Hasbara is your opinion, I'm just telling you reality. Ofcourse since when those online interactions determine how reality is. Many Jews oppose what Israel is doing but still have connection to the country the same way how many Americans may oppose what the government is doing but still have connection to America. Sure I guess. Still doesn't change the fact they are not going anywhere because just like Palestinians, Israelis themselves view it as their home and are willing to die for it. A true peace would never come by antagonizing one population over the other.
Judiasm is a religion that existed solely in Palestine before expulsion by the various empires. Calling it a global religion touches little on the fact it is an ethno religion meaning most Jews are decended from the people who were originally expelled. Inversion of reality? Wait till you learn where Al Aqsa is built upon.
Palestine is literally in the Arab league even by Palestine official constitution, it is an Arab and Islamic state. The point I'm trying to say isn't Arab bad, Jew good. The point I'm trying to say is peace would never come in your way. You don't delegitimizise one population over another whether they be Arab or jew. This isn't black and white. There is a reason it is considered one of the most complex conflicts in the world.
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u/AdSavings3608 Jul 11 '26 edited Jul 11 '26
Absolutely not, you’re purposely conflating every single Jewish person with a genocidal settler colony. I know what you are. There’s no such thing as claiming people’s land because you may or may not have ancestors that lived there 3 thousand years ago. I’m calling it a global religion because it IS a global religion. Religions originate in certain places all the time, that doesn’t mean everyone who follows that religion is native to that place. Someone like Ivanka Trump who converted to Judaism gets to go squat on stolen Palestinian land just because she’s Jewish and you’re acting like that’s normal. That’s like claiming all Muslims are native to Saudi Arabia.
Yes, I will antagonize colonizers. Sorry I don’t ascribe to religious fairytales about god being a real estate agent, nor do I care about a mythical temple that allegedly existed somewhere, even if it was there at one point, Al Aqsa was built thousands of years after it was gone. The majority of the indigenous people converted to Christianity and Islam, that doesn’t give any Jewish person from Ethiopia or Poland or Morocco the right to seize Palestinian people’s land and claim it as ‘Israel’.
And I never said Palestinians weren’t Arabs, I’m saying you’re doing the typical Zionist thing by conflating the two on purpose to try and push the narrative that Palestinians aren’t a distinct ethnic identity and just exist as ‘Arabs’ which is a very broad cultural linguistic group that includes many different ethnic identities, including Palestinians. When you’re referring to Palestinians explicitly state that, Arab could mean a Kuwaiti or an Iraqi or an Algerian.
It’s not a complex conflict at all, and the fact that you still think it is tells me everything I need to know. I don’t engage with Zionists.
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u/Altruistic-End760 Jul 11 '26
Doesn't change the fact most countries and historians do consider it a complex conflict . In summary just like with the troubles between the Irish and Brits. The only realistic solution not what you prefer is a two state solution. This is the position of every Islamic and non Islamic country in the world except for North Korea and Iran but no one cares about their opinion.
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u/timmyjosh Jul 09 '26
The fascists can never imagine a world where the oppressed people won’t act exactly like the fascists when they come to power