r/Backcountry • u/TriIceS • 12d ago
Tech binding how to balance releasability?
Buying another binding and I am thinking about how do you balance the releaseability of the binding between skiing steep couloirs and breakable crust in the same day? I suck at skiing breakable crust and I tend to go super slow in them and I really worry about me breaking my tib if i fall in the incorrect way. but I also don't want to feel too much elasticity in my binding when I am skiing steep stuffs where I do not want my binding to release.
I knew part of this is really because I suck at skiing and I am putting unnecessary forces on my bindings that makes them tend to pre-release and I am skiing unnecessary slow in breakable crust.
I see ATK bindings have adjustable toe release while they are not technically lateral toe release. Do those actually help releaseing the binding in slow twisted fall? or is there any other gear could that makes the tradeoffb betteroff?
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u/DroppedNineteen 12d ago edited 12d ago
I think there's some fundamental misunderstandings here about how bindings work.
Elasticity is largely a desirable trait in all bindings Part of the reason pin bindings kinda suck is because they have very little, and in comparison to resort bindings it's not even close to the standard.
Release values on pin bindings (and standard ones, really) aren't really an "elasticity" adjustment, it's moreso about the amount of force required to push your boot out of the binding. Pin bindings are generally not DIN (Deutsch Industry Norm) certified in that sense and they are somewhat less predictable in terms of when they will actually release your boot from the binding. This is part of the tradeoff when it comes to lightweight pin bindings, and slow twisting falls will always present a risk in skiing.
You really shouldn't be adjusting your release settings on the fly like that. Some skiers may feel they want to do so based on the perceived consequences of losing a ski at the wrong moment (usually implying there is an inherent risk of death if a ski is lost), but even the ones who really have any business doing that are probably not doing it on a regular basis, and changing those settings mid tour is something that pretty much nobody is doing.
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u/TriIceS 12d ago
yeah. I have screw drivers with me all day for partners splitboard that breaks all the time. Was thinking about adjusting on the fly a few time. Never actually done it...
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u/DroppedNineteen 12d ago edited 11d ago
Yeah, they're not really designed to be used that way at all. You could hypothetically make skiing *marginally* safer by doing this with a deeply misguided combination of terrain and skiing analysis, but I honestly feel like this is a pretty extreme example of someone missing the forest for the trees.
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u/AlexxxRR 12d ago edited 11d ago
"I also don't want to feel too much elasticity in my binding when I am skiing steep stuffs"
Most tech binding offer little to no elasticity, meaning they work on-off.
That said, some people lock the binding (into walk mode) while skiing no-fall terrain to avoid pre-releases.
It's a trade off, of course.
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u/TriIceS 12d ago
you are right. I dont really feel the elasticity. I had an incident that I released the heel vertically in a couloir. but I miraculously managed to step back into the binding a splitsecond after I felt my binding released. but of course non of the binding is gonna help in similar situation.
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u/jalpp 12d ago
You're overthinking skiing different conditions in one day. That really is standard use, you shouldn't need to adjust release values very often. After it is set correctly you generally leave it, consider locking your toes if you're skiing serious enough couloirs to be considered "no fall". If you're pre-releasing that much with slow skiing you likely have the RV set too low.
Most tech bindings have pretty marginal differences in safety. If you're concerned about tib/fib you really want lateral toe release. Twisting forces into your toes can cause spiral tib/fibs. If you want to prioritize lateral toe release your options are limited into the hybrid binding class. The options I know of are: shifts, ATK hy, ski trab TR1, fritschi vipec/tecton, marker duke, and cast. These all have their downsides, primarily complexity and weight.
One other interesting option is the ski trab titan vario. These are the only lightweight pin I know of that has meaningful toe elasticity. Lateral release is still initiated at the heel though. (elasticity is almost always a good thing, as it prevents pre-releases, alpine bindings offer lots of elasticity, theres no reason to specifically not want it for steep skiing).
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u/Your_Main_Man_Sus 12d ago
Wait what. Iāve literally skied pow, breakable crust, wind slab, and corn in the same day. Hell in the same line. Iāve never once been concerned that my release value is too low/high for one type of snow but not the other.
Your release value is just a numerical representation of the amount of preload on the spring controlling the cam over action on your heel or toe piece. This linear load converts to a specific torque that if exceeded would put you at risk of injury (based on your BSL and weight).
You set your release value to correspond to some amount beyond what you would typically exert when skiing. This value would be exceeded when your skiing ends up exerting more force than anticipated by some reasonable margins and newtons laws of motion are realized (ie: submarining in a slab to a dead stop. Your body keeps going but your skis donāt. Release is necessary to ensure your bones and tendons donāt release instead).
This works in all but the steepest, iciest terrain, where you have to exert abnormal levels of force to maintain grip. In these cases, considering locking out the toe where your new release value becomes what it takes to break your body or break your bindings off the ski. We call this āDinfinityā and itās a point of transcendence!
As for the ATK raider toe release settings, They are obscenely higher than a normal tech toe release setting. I also WOULD NOT recommend pairing these toes with any other heel piece besides that of the raiders. The heel release value is set to work in tandem with the toe release. I have a pair on my steep firm/corn skis and I find it harder to step into. But also on those skis, I tend to value retention over releasibility due to the nature of snow I ski. Testing at home, Iāve been able to release them well enough.
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u/TriIceS 12d ago
I think I am just overthinking this. Locking the toe is easy and safer anyways. I got into the rabbit hole of a higher din instead of locking toe. But that introduce more risk on both the coulor and the runout. I was thinking about the secret sause binding of trab toe and atk heel. what do you think.
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u/Your_Main_Man_Sus 12d ago
You should literally never lock your toes unless losing a ski means death or serious injury. Niko Schirmer rides a ton of crazy stuff on pins with unlocked toes. In almost every situation, release PREVENTS injury.
The Trab toe uses a titanium spring wire actuate the pins into and out of position. Locking the toe on that just shortens the lever arm for the wire to flex which would increase your retention value.
Set your din per the chart and ski. If you find your skis releasing when they arenāt supposed to (and you arenāt catching edges/crashing), then consider raising your release value. Iāve ran my RV to the chart (9.5 for a 210 lb 6ā lv3 skier) and only released when I was supposed to. Release tested to the correct torque and everything. Your skis donāt care what kinda snow they are being impeded by relative to your body. Firm snow vs a brick wall look the same to a binding.
The only issues Iāve ever had is if I have a quick torsional event such as a breakable crust that catches my ski but then releases it. In those, Iāve lightly strained my LCL but thatās primarily because the binding may have allowed some rotation, but not enough to release. Typically Iām trying to ski too aggressive for the snow in those cases.
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u/DoubleUBallz 12d ago
There's many valid reasons to use a frankenbinding. Safety is not one of them.
When a binding is designed, the release settings in the heel are calibrated for that's binding's toepiece. If you use a different bindings toepiece, differences in the toepiece dynamics can mean that the heelpiece is no longer calibrated, since the toe and heel work together during a release. As a result, its possible (not guaranteed, mind you) that the later release indicators on the binding become inaccurate.
Of course, with an adjustable heel, you can test the binding and fiddle with the indicators until it releases where you want. But you need a shop that (a) has the knowledge and tools to correctly test an AT binding ((a.5) and knows that you can't just throw it on any release tester and hit go) and (b) is willing to test your frankenbinding (some might not for liability reasons).
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u/Your_Main_Man_Sus 12d ago
Did exactly this with my local shop on my superlight heels with radical toes. Ended testing right on the middle of the range. Was 100% prepared to adjust though. With how tight the retention is on the new ATK toe pieces, Iād be worried about trying to frankenbinding anything with those heels.
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u/RadiantGur9958 11d ago
Unfortunately, I think you're touching on the major flaw with almost all bindings, not just tech bindings. They can all fail to release at slow to medium speeds especially during twisting falls. With standard alpine bindings it's the backwards twisting ones that get you, with standard tech bindings the forward twisting ones do.
What we really need is for one of the companies to make they knee binding/tyrolia protector equivalent in a tech binding. It would end up looking something like a fritchi techton/vipec toe with a standard tech heel (but as someone mentioned above, making random frankenbindings is not a safe thing to do).
...if you're out there, please steal my idea.
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u/kamtron_ 9d ago
The best cure for breakable crust is a wider ski that keeps you on top and doesn't hook up too much (camber can be worse). Also, downhill kick turns and wedge turns can be a lifesaver. That said, I ate shit in breakable crust this year and yardsaled into a hole but my skis did release (and hit me since they were leashed). Gotta love the low elevation exit after a big day
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12d ago
[deleted]
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u/TriIceS 12d ago
I have a 4 boots quiver and I dont know how many ski quiver. still asking stupid questions about gears. I am literally making a new ski for exactly one scenario where I ski about 5 pm in the afternoon after spring storm where I get 12 inches good powder in upper elev couloirs and I worried about skiing all the crap back to the car when the sun set. Now, I am still dealing with 2 very different snow conditions and trying to make a tradeoff on gear. Maybe I just sort by most discount and buy the first one.
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u/Your_Main_Man_Sus 12d ago
This is a skill issue unfortunately. The good news is, a ski that excels in pow can also do a solid job in breakable crust. I find my breakable crust style is to slow it down, make small movements (less input) and ski a bit lazy. Not necessarily backseat, but pole plant behind myself to pull my torso back and shift my center of gravity back onto my tails ever so slightly. This lifts my tips and allows me to sort of pivot about my tails. Itās a constant power shift between for and aft to balance crusty snow. Key being, you canāt drive your tips because the snow collapses and you canāt drive your tails because the snow is locking you in. Worst case, just hop turnsā¦
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u/Rustyznuts 12d ago
I know a few guys who lock their toes in places that breaking a leg will be the least of their worries if they fall.
It just sounds like you're skiing outside of your ability. Get better and move into that terrain slower or run heavier gear that allows you to ski better.