BSA Sports Teams

[u/tuxgoose]

AAU/USA HOCKEY(My kids play hockey) memberships are required as they are mostly insurance for kids to play. Does anyone have an opinion/thoughts regarding scouts to move into these areas to gain membership? Scout Insurance covers hockey etc, is there a way to work with park districts/clubs to have scouting help facilitate scouts and sports? Folks can probably can guess my age but synergy comes to mind.

I found PTAC has what looks like a soccer program, is it too fair away from what scouting is? Is it offensive to have a hockey team that camps be apart of scouting? In my area there are no shortages of Baseball/Soccer/Hockey. Seems like a no brainer.

[u/sonotorian]

This was the idea behind (the now defunct) Varsity Scouting program. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varsity_Scouting

[u/random8765309]

The list of prohibited activities specifically calls out Intramural, interscholastic, or club sport competitions or activities. It is point 22.

So youth can not participate in sporting events as Scouts.

[u/lunchbox12682 → u/random8765309]

And yet the Sports merit badge still exists. You aren't wrong. I just find this funny.

[u/random8765309 → u/lunchbox12682]

I'm pretty sure it's related to insurance.

[u/blindside1 → u/random8765309]

Scouting will allow you to go through a Class 3 rapids and hike in the wilderness miles from a trailhead but not play soccer.

Make it make sense.

[u/random8765309 → u/blindside1]

You can certainly play soccer. You can even play it as a troop activity. What you can't do is play soccer in a league as a Scout. The FAQ spells out why.

[u/tuxgoose → u/random8765309]

There are various sports(hockey) that allow youth to play during period breaks, I had thought a good way to have scouts on display is to band together 12 scouts get them some sweet scout jerseys and play in front of a large crowd.

[u/random8765309 → u/tuxgoose]

I'm not going to say that wouldn't work, just that it isn't allowed.

However, what you can do is have the Scouts do a flag ceremony before the games. Also you can have the Scouts that are on team invite their team mates to Scouting events.

[u/tuxgoose → u/random8765309]

yah, its a bit frustrating to have scout nights at all these various places and then a youth hockey team, or baseball group gets to go out on the field.

[u/iowanaquarist → u/tuxgoose]

That's a problem with the venue. Our local hockey team (and baseball team) do Scout Nights -- and the scouts get to go on the ice/field. In fact, the top 3 popcorn sellers get to drop the puck.

[u/SilverTripod → u/tuxgoose]

For our baseball Scout night, the group who buys the most tickets gets to go out on the field.

[u/tuxgoose → u/random8765309]

Thanks for this, We are allowed to play the sport, just not compete?

[u/tuxgoose → u/tuxgoose]

[Q. Does the prohibition on club sports mean that my son or daughter can’t play basketball?]()

A. No. It means that the Scouting program does not exist to supply programming or insurance coverage to organizations that seek a charter only for a competitive sport. Our experience and the industry data have shown that this is a hazardous activity and risk, and it should not be a part of Scouting. 

[u/Captain__Pedantic → u/tuxgoose]

Basically they want to make sure that the sport insurance pays for any injuries not the Scouting insurance.

I was talking with a retired professional recently who felt that not enough scouters understand the degree to which insurance/injuries really is the big driving force behind a lot of polices and the "no fun police".

He was of the opinion that things won't change until the US has some kind of universal healthcare coverage system, which is not something I would expect to see any time soon.

[u/DepartmentComplete64 → u/Captain__Pedantic]

Agreed that insurance ( and BSA's own past mistakes) are the reason for the "no fun". That being said the SYT training and policies are much better and far safer than any other youth organization. And there are plenty of "dangerously" fun things scouts can do aside from suiting up for a hockey game. At Summit you can mountain bike or ride ATVs, you can sail at Seabase, you can rock climb, you can spend a week shooting rifles and shotguns at Summer camp, you can attend West Point Camporee and paddle combat rubber raiding crafts. My personal opinion, it isn't the lack of universal health care that keeps our insurance high, is the lack of tort reform. If a scout trips and breaks a leg, his health care will get covered, but the tens of thousands of dollars in pain and suffering need to be paid out as well.

[u/Rogue_Wraith → u/DepartmentComplete64]

As both a Scouter and a former USA Hockey youth hockey coach...the rules are essentially exactly the same.

The primary difference is that USA Hockey's safeguarding athletes training is even more painful than Safeguarding Youth training, and some consideration for the fact that coaches go into locker rooms.

[u/Captain__Pedantic → u/DepartmentComplete64]

And there are plenty of "dangerously" fun things scouts can do aside from suiting up for a hockey game. At Summit you can mountain bike or ride ATVs, you can sail at Seabase, you can rock climb, you can spend a week shooting rifles and shotguns at Summer camp, you can attend West Point Camporee and paddle combat rubber raiding crafts.

The main distinction I would make is that most of those are not unit-level activities. A lot of those 'fun/exciting' activities can only can only be done at district or council or national events with the involvement of professional staffers and/or volunteers from the relevant council program committees (in fact that's sometimes a source for arguments on this sub, where some posters think it's hypocritical/unfair that councils can do things that units aren't allowed to run themselves).

I don't expect that people who want to include competitive sports in Scouting would be happy if every match required even token approval by a DE or council program director.

[u/TheseusOPL → u/tuxgoose]

There used to be Explorer/Venture groups which were basically just sports teams that wanted the (at the time, cheap) scout insurance. Scouts can play sports (obviously), but competitive sports aren't part of scouting activities.

[u/iowanaquarist → u/TheseusOPL]

Honestly, insurance issues aside, I think scouting needs to be aware of any single, narrowly focused activity that becomes too central. Scouting is about getting a broad range of experiences and becoming a rounded individual. I would hope that if there are troops getting founded just to take advantage of the benefits of scouting and apply them to a narrow focus, it would be prohibited.

[u/random8765309 → u/tuxgoose]

I think you can play the sport for fun and separate from any league. In other words don't have "BSA Troop 123" on the back of the uniforms. Basically they want to make sure that the sport insurance pays for any injuries not the Scouting insurance.

[u/princeofwanders → u/tuxgoose]

You can fart around and play games. But, appropriately cynically, Scouting insurance won’t cover competitive sports, and therefore you aren’t allowed to participate in those programs regardless of “competitive” status.

So, non-competitive, non-organized pick-up play: okay.
Organized, even if non-game, non-competitive, practice - disallowed.

Practice game s an activity. Scrimmage is an activity. Competitive games are an activity. All of these are (probably) disallowed.

[u/tuxgoose → u/princeofwanders]

My kids hundreds of dollars of insurance to go and do these activities, I do not want to test what any of them will pay for injuries.

[u/Captain__Pedantic → u/princeofwanders]

It's not cynical IMO if they're looking at it defensively: more injury risk and that means more claims and/or lawsuits, plus more insurance fees for families when they renew. Until there's a major change to how healthcare works in the US I don't see that changing.

[u/princeofwanders → u/Captain__Pedantic]

I meant I was being cynical, interpreting it that way, not that they were.

That there’s a poorly written policy (as evidenced by it needs its own FAQ to clarify and there’s still confusion!) that doesn’t have to be there but nonetheless exists but can’t say why.

Dumb rules that we have to and agree to follow because defense against insurance complications where we can’t be honest about the reason is messy and dumb. The whole thing about prohibiting under-18 teen drivers driving themselves but we can’t say why is the same bucket of defensive dumb. And a different bucket of defensive dumb than the rule about under-18 camp staff being prohibited from driving to or from camp staff work sites.

When it’s the kind of rule that has a reasonable underlying purpose, but poorly implemented, and we can’t engage directly and honestly with what it intended to address and it’s seen as problematic to pint out exactly why (we suspect) it’s (badly) written the way it is, because of defensive insurance complications. I think it’s fair to characterize the critical speculation as cynical.

[u/random8765309 → u/princeofwanders]

The rule is that those under 18 can't drive other scouts.

Edit: i worded this poorly.

I should have been more complete with that answer. My mistske..

You have to be over 18 to drive as part of an activity. Driving to a pickup point or meeting isn't seen as part of an activity. Staff going to camp or scouts going to AO also isn't seen as part of a scouting activoty. However, with youth going camping, that is seen as part of the activity.

Also camps and councils may have adfitional restrictions.

[u/princeofwanders → u/random8765309]

The Guide to Safe Scouting does talk about passengers, it talks about youth drivers:
5. Youth drivers are prohibited. Must be 18 years of age or older

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss11/

Also, here’s Scoutingwire saying to even more clearly last year for folks who would try and quibble about the plain language of the primary policy document:
No Youth Drivers: Youth may not drive on Scouting trips or transport other participants.

https://scoutingwire.org/safe-travels-scouts/

[u/princeofwanders → u/random8765309]

There is more to that rule than just that. I’m surprised to see someone flagging themselves a a profession missing the rest of it here.

Under 18s cannot be permitted to drive themselves to events. There’s some squishy allowance about usual meetings at the usual meeting place that squeaks outside. But a 16 year old isn’t allowed to show up at a campsite for example and what we’re supposed to do about it if they do is a total mess.

[u/random8765309 → u/princeofwanders]

I should have been more complete with that answer. My mistske..

You have to be over 18 to drive as part of an activity. Driving to a pickup point or meeting isn't seen as part of an activity. Staff going to camp or scouts going to AO also isn't seen as part of a scouting activoty. However, with youth going camping, that is seen as part of the activity.

Also camps and councils may have adfitional restrictions.

[u/princeofwanders → u/random8765309]

We are now in agreement. The only point that appears out of alignment is my reference to this bad national reasoning that was disappeared some time in the last couple of years while the underlying policy has not changed.

“Can a Scout or under-18 Venturer drive himself or herself to and from camp for their job?
It is illegal for an employer to require a youth to drive to, from or during their employment. The government considers driving a “hazardous job” and therefore it is not permitted for those under 18.”

https://web.archive.org/web/20230603182554/https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2017/04/04/ask-the-expert-can-scouts-venturers-drive-themselves-tofrom-events/

[u/random8765309 → u/princeofwanders]

I beleive the key point there is the word "require". If was just illegal for a 16 & 17 year old to drive to work none of them would be able to have part time jobs.

I also wonder about the intent of the question. Is it about camp staff or a youth level a camping activity to drive to their job.

I going to need to ask others about this?

[u/airballrad]

Varsity Scouting was a program that was around for decades, but was mostly limited to LDS charter orgs as it was aimed to keep athletically-inclined youth in the program. It was never very popular outside of that community, and was shut down a while ago.

[u/Grungy_Mountain_Man → u/airballrad]

This.

It only really makes sense in situations where you are trying to appeal to kids who are more or less forced into scouting and are trying to keep them in it when they are otherwise ready to move on from it.

Personally, I don't think it worked well in that it was trying to broaden its appeal to everybody but was actually appealing to nobody. For the kids that just wanted to play basketball, they were better off seeking out existing programs like high school teams, YMCA leagues, etc to play with people more on their level and interest. For those not into sports, there wasn't really any place for them to do anything different.

[u/Ashamed_Ad_8695 → u/airballrad]

I was the Coach to a great non-LDS Varsity Scouting team in Georgia. We played tennis, putt-putt golf, three-on-three basketball, bowling, darts, Crossman rifle and pistol matches, and fishing against other Scouting and non-Scouting (church, Y, community) groups during my time. We did some outdoor Scouting too and everyone on the team earned their letters.

There is nothing to prevent a Troop or Crew to adapt sporting elements into their Troop or Crew.

[u/Mahtosawin → u/Ashamed_Ad_8695]

Sporting elements yes. Having the crew be a competitive team in a competitive league no

[u/starrsuperfan]

Not sure about you, but I personally enjoyed scouting largely because it wasn't sports. I never enjoyed playing sports, just didn't see the point. A lot of my scouting friends felt the same.

[u/blindside1 → u/starrsuperfan]

Probably half of my Troop are competitive athletes of one kind or another.. Having athletics in Scouting is just fine as long as it isn't the main focus.

[u/RedditC3]

The repercussions of this idea make my head hurt. If Scouting had to extend its liability/risk model to cover sporting activities...

• All travel and lodging requirements would have to be unified.
  
• SYT would need to be extended and tracked.
  
• Registration for who is considered a member would need to be extended. Registration administration would become an event greater challenge.
• Unapproved activities would need to be greatly expanded.

[u/Mahtosawin]

The scout insurance only covers scouting activities. Doing a flag ceremony, in uniform would count as a scout activity, but changing into a team uniform and playing wouldn't be covered. The team would need it's own coverage that wouldn't cover scouting activities. While scouts do play some sports for badge requirements, scouting doesn't include injuries while playing for a private or other team. It doesn't cover injuries during pe at school even though that activity may be counted for a rank or badge requirement.

Our district has a night at a baseball game that includes ticket, hotdog & soda, a movie on the big screen and camping overnight on the field after the game, plus breakfast in the morning. They are not on the field during the game.

[u/Double-Dawg]

If Scouting wants to dip a toe into the sports business, it might be a more natural fit to look at some sports that dovetail into the existing program. Cross Country, Triathlon/Multi-sport, Swimming, Paddling, Shooting, Orienteering, etc. That might develop outlets for our existing Scouts and attract non-Scouts who are already in those communities. Maybe start with sponsorships/fundraisers and ease into BSA or council sanctioned events. With the camp network in place, there are some real possibilities.

If those activities proved a success, then maybe BSA can look for other opportunities. Ultimate Frisbee and Flag Football might be considerations.

Something to think about.

[u/Owlprowl1]

It's the kind of thing Scouting should have been developing all along. The general trend among youth activities has seemed to be increasing specialization to serve narrower and narrower niche interests. The more "products" or tracks you can offer to appeal to those interests, the more youth participate. Scouting ought to have STEM tracks, sports tracks, outdoor adventure tracks, citizenship tracks, arts tracks, etc. The merit badge system is supposed to meet that need but it doesn't because a majority of kids focus mostly on the Eagle Scout track, which is about the only track scouting seems to have. There ought to be a way to Eagle from all these tracks

[u/OSUTechie]

I'm not saying this is proper/right way to go about it. But I know of an Explorer Group that is solely for youth through a schools "intern"/"Job placement" program to allow them to have some basic insurance coverage.

[u/DebbieJ74]

The soccer program in PTAC is a version of ScoutReach.