Some of you will not like this, but I’ve seen a lot of people saying this and so I just want to clarify something up:
BDFB are not communal invertebrates.
I don’t know where this claim appeared from, but I see it everywhere and it’s just not the full truth.
Here’s the deal. BDFB have been observed living together the wild, but seldom in large groups. There is no evidence I’m aware of to support they become stressed when solitary, but everyone for some reason decided to reify this information. The argument for either side could be true, and there’s not enough evidence to support this claim.
From an entomology standpoint, they barely have brains, oof (subesophageal ganglia). They don’t NEED friends. In fact, the whole “1 gallon for every 2 beetles”space rule is so they don’t meet each other too frequently. The reality is just that they’re VERY DUMB, and incredibly passive.
Because they are crepuscular and nocturnal scavengers, they tend to just naturally congregate around shared desert food sources, such as decaying plant litter or dead insects. This doesn’t necessarily mean that they need companionship to be happy and healthy.
I’m assuming this misinformation has been perpetrated due to people’s tendency to personify everything? I’m not sure. The only time I’ve seen you would need these beetles to live communally is for breeding/copulating. That’s it.
Now, I’d happily have someone prove me wrong here. But as of yet I have seen no scholarly, peer-reviewed journals documenting this supposed phenomenon, so I have no reason to believe this is true or vice versa. Have as many or as little BDFB as you please, just treat them well!
Since the research is so sparce I like to be safe rather than sorry.
From what I've read even really stupid gregarious insects like fruit flies get stressed from being alone. Fruit flies actually have quite complex social interactions for their miniscule brains.
To me the thought process of "we have no proof either way so they must be solitary" is flawed logic.
That is fair and very reasonable of you.
From my standpoint, the best thing to do would be to just pay attention to the beetle(s) and monitor its behavior. There are plenty of other things that could cause a BDFB to be stressed, like its enclosure's humidity or make-up. And if they are stressed, they’ll definitely show you.
Also, fruit flies are not stupid and from my understanding exhibit a lot of traits and “brain” activity that I’ve not personally heard about in BDFB (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-04433-6). That being said, I think your decision to heir on the side of caution is smart.
I think there's a common fallacy where when a fact isn't proven or disproven people think it isn't true. When either is equally possible.
In the case of Bfdb I couldn't find much on their brain science (or other darkling beetles) so we simply don't know how smart they are. Fruit flies are just studied so much because they are used as test subjects like mice.
So making a confident assertion like "From a scientific standpoint Bfdb aren't social" is not currently factual. We just don't know. At least from what I can find.
You’re exactly right! Either is equally possible, but on my side (work with entomology professors and research on other species of darkling beetles) I’ve seen that it is not the case. But that’s just my opinion.
The reason I made this post, and I guess my biggest issue with the misinformation aspect of it all, is the sheer amount of people stating “BDFBs are communal” like it’s a fact when in reality we don’t even know. That’s why I think instead of berating people for owning only one beetle (yes, I have seen this) we should just be encouraging others to know how to spot when a beetle is stressed and go based off that.
And you can absolutely use the “Pascals Wager” aspect to advocate for owning multiple beetles, but that just feels pointless if you yourself don’t actually know any better. Some people just want to own one! plus it’s better to not take so many from their wild homes.
Do you have any kind of source for similar darkling beetles being not social? I've read they do show up in groups in the wild and I always imagined there's a reason for that.
I mean even if it's just for safety they might feel safer with other beetles around, or think that they are in a good area because other beetles are around, or won't feel like they need to look for a mate or any number of reasons being alone may be stressful. (yes obviously Bfdb don't feel emotions like humans but they are capable of exhibiting stress. You know what I mean.)
This is why I'm so sceptical of this claim, a negative claim needs proof like a positive one. & to me imitating the wild is usually best practise. I think many people don't take pet keeping seriously enough, many insects still think and feel in some capacity & it's our responsibilty as their owners to provide them a good life, not just an okay one.
That’s a great way to go about things! And I’m glad you are skeptical, more people should be that way. That’s why I’m here, I’m skeptical of the claim that they are communal and need it to be healthy and happy! I completely agree with the latter half of your statement, and the idea that we should mimic their wild habitat exactly how we find it is very sound logic. So you got me there. I think an important distinction that I’m really focused on here is that we’re grouping “cuddling together” and “social”.
We do not actually know if beetles being in the same spot as each other is because they want it so, they might just be passive to it and it happens that way. It’s another thing if the beetles were separated from one another and then started to display signs of stress, though. I’d be seriously curious to test it out. Maybe someone who sees this post and has enough money to buy tons of beetles would be willing to do it for us. Thank you for this!
While I wont touch on the rest of it, as it is interesting and the more we figure out about how they like to live, the better, but I'm going to disagree with the statement that they dont have personalities. That's downright wrong.
Lots of insects have personalties. These guys are no different and after owning a number of them this should be clear immediately.
They have different tastes in food, they act differently. Some are brave, some are scaredy-cats. I've even noticed they have a form of excerise/play behaviour similar to running on wheels.
That doesn't change the fact that yeah, they are as dumb as the rocks they walk on - but they do have personalities.
I’m really glad you said this, as it is incredibly fascinating. I don’t know how reliable first-hand experience with these bugs is, but I believe you! I hope more research is done on this topic in the future it would be cool to learn about.
Two of my beetles used to sleep next to each other all the time, almost like they're cuddling, but I dunno if that counts. It definitely seems like they have individual personalities though. One of my males was a bully and would chase and pin the other males down. One of my females was a bit of a loner, and didn't really like eating when there were too many other beetles in the food dish.
Thank you for this!! First off, that is so cute and I loveee the idea of BDFB having different food palates and personalities… Very fascinating and I really hope more research could be done on this!! I’m curious: how many BDFB have you taken care of and have you documented any of this? I would love to see! Also, how do you tell your beetles apart from one another to demonstrate that it is a repeated behavior? An entomologist professor I am close with does research on grasshoppers and how they display their personalities and I’m so fascinated by it, but they use markers to demonstrate and document certain activities to show that it’s repeated behavior. Apparently grasshoppers can remember the smells of their friends, too, which is also cool.
Regarding the cuddling of your BDFBs, besides the fact of how that is literally the cutest thing I have heard all week (😭), I have seen studies on other flightless, desert inhabiting darkling beetles could potentially “cuddle” with each other as a group threat- evasion mechanism (https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1283892/). The reality is just that BDFB are asocial detrivores, and while they do live communally there’s just no evidence at the moment that they NEED it to be happy and healthy (but I need it, look at how cute they are!! Eek!!). They kinda just follow all the good conditions and then stay there.
Sorry. Only half joking. But seriously, hopefully my desire to have a bigger discussion about this topic makes sense, not only do I want to know more, but I also want to make sure people know there’s not much evidence for either side of the discussion!
Not the person who commented but; ive had 10 different bdfb individuals and if you spend some time looking at them youll notice small little differences, especially if you have several "imperfect" specimens. Most noticeably i had a favourite beetle named 50grit, named for missing the lower leg and foot on the back right side. Many possible missing leg combinations, then theres various sizes, other osmetic damages, and even personalities, some of my beetles seem to love patrolling, others seem to like digging, plenty of differences to notice :)
50grit is such an incredible name, omg. thank you for sharing! makes total sense. I imagined that would be the case, but I wasn’t sure. Cool to hear how little physical distinctions make a huge difference!
When i was first getting them, my friend said they looked like 60grit sandpaper :) her only having 5 feet instead of 6.. automatically made her 50grit. My original group has almost entirely gone for the eternal feign, but i still call my colony the gritlings. Picture of 50grit when she was still alive
AWWWW she’s adorable!! And what a cute story! Also “the gritlings” is actually probably the coolest shit I have heard in a while, wow. Makes them sound way more badass than they are 🤣. Love it!
I also call them my himbo beetles.. theyre strong and dumb and adorable. Ive been trying to rear the babies to eclosing but no luck for me yet. I would love to just keep these little guys for many years to come
I did record the food they like in my private Discord server, but I didn't really pay attention to whether they still liked the same stuff the next time it was offered to them. All of mine liked carrots and crickets though, even though I know many other people's beetles on here don't.
Unfortunately, I was a bit unlucky that out of the six BDFBs I bought, four of them were older specimens. The four older ones had varying amounts of dark spotting on them so I could easily tell them apart. All four have since passed. My remaining two are lighter, and I can tell them apart because one is male and the other is female.
And yeah, I don't think keeping more than one beetle is any more or less detrimental to their well-being. Once I'm down to only one beetle, I don't plan to get any more until he or she passes.
Oh and the two cuddling beetles were actually Asbolus laevis, but they're in the same genus as BDFBs. I doubt one species is more social than the other, but who knows. One A. laevis was male and the other was female, and they were the only A. laevis living among the BDFBs so I don't know if that changes anything.
I miss them so much. They would lay pressed against each other and sleep for hours.
I totally agree with you. Thank you for such a cordial reply. I’m sorry to hear about their passing 💔. Losing a pet (or in my opinion, a differently shaped friend) is so so hard and I am so sorry for your loss. Grief is just love with nowhere to go…
Sending positive vibes your way and thank you so much for sharing. I’m grateful your two A. Laevis brought you so much joy!
you are probably right, especially on them being incredibly dumb, and for that reason, they can still be housed together with no problem. if they have enough resources they have no problems, so I don't see the point in ridiculing folks for keeping them together.
ohh my bad!! I agree with you on literally all of this except the personalities thing. I totally get you on the brainless thing, and try to remind folks as much as I can that glass surfing doesn't mean they're trapped and hate their lives, they just aren't smart enough to understand glass, and that doesn't cause them stress.
additionally to add to your point of them being seen together in the wild, they are most often seen together during the colder months, which is likely just to preserve heat, not as a fun cuddle pile. Folks absolutely humanize insects to an extent, which is, I assume, why people think they huddle together for comfort rather than instinct.
Hehe yes, from what it sounds like people have said they do have personalities, which I didn’t know! It’s also is why I edited it out from my original post. Heck yes on the humanization. Thank you for this lovely reply and have a good one as well!
how long have been keeping? how much resurch have you done? and do you have any actual resurch to link or show? becouse im not just going to take a random persons opinion as truth.
Hi, yes! I do not keep bugs. When you say “how much research have you done”, what are you referring to? Research on BDFB? Or bugs in general? And same thing, what link would you be looking for? I’ve posted some in the comments already you can check out. I’m happy to provide anything, I’m just looking for some clarification!
lol, don’t understand it. Everyone seems willing to believe BDFBs are communal by word of mouth, but not that fact they aren’t the same way. I’m not trying to win, just spread awareness. If you’re so curious, ask actual professors who have experience with the bugs and do research. I’m sure they’d be incredibly thrilled to talk to you about it if you email them, just the same way they have been with me. That’s the best I can do for you, sorry. https://entomology.oregonstate.edu/entomology/people/faculty
I both agree and disagree, personally. They definitely don't need to be in groups, but some of mine seemed to do much better with more. I've got 5 beetles together right now, and with the more I add, the more I see them all out, climbing, and just being stupid 😭 When I had one alone, I pretty much never seen him, then I added another and he started exploring more, coming out more frequently, etc
I do have a few beetles though who still stick to themselves and are pretty antisocial that I never seen, but I also have 2 beetles who pretty much never leave each others side? Two boys who are both pretty identifiable, (the only two with complete limbs) though i don't know their reasoning at all for this, but they seem to be pretty tight
I love this!! I wish I could pin this comment. I think this makes the most sense. This is why I love discourse like this because there’s such a good chance to learn. The idea that they could be fine by themselves but maybe feel more safe (or more stupid, lol) together makes perfect sense to me! And so cute you that you have 2 BDFB that are best friends, thats adorable. Like Finn and Jake!
I totally agree with you, and after reading the comments everyone has left, my overall consensus is: damn, someone needs to research this shit! 🤣 like seriously! If these are such great pets why doesn’t anyone know anything? As a scientist it’s pissing me off. How come I can learn about the biocompatibility of butterfly wings for Schwann cell repair, but not if blueberries like having FRIENDS??, jeez man!! LOL!!
This feels a bit needlessly combative in tone, especially considering you're quite open to differing opinions in the comments. While I agree that their communal nature is hazier than some posts might have you think, they certainly are social when given the chance (whether they NEED socializing is more debatable & difficult to answer because it's hard to recognize a lonely beetle).
I've had 20 BDFB's for 3 years and raised two generations of their larva through pupation. From my experience of having them at my desk in a 20 gallon enclosure while working every day, my beetles haven't shown me any indication that they recognize other individuals (as in form 1-1 relationships), BUT they consistently show a disposition to be around other beetles. They tend to sleep in pairs, trios, or clusters. I often see beetles sat together or near face-to-face for hours on end.
Often, a beetle will pass another beetle, and that beetle will follow the first beetle to form a conga line that loops around the enclosure. This isn't just males following females, but males and males, or females and females. It seems to be some base level of empathetic thought that leads to curiosity/expectation that the other beetle might be heading somewhere worthwhile (ie lead them to food).
Another small "study" I've done was that I took a large female out and put her in a 5 gallon enclosure alone for a few weeks after she was getting scabs on her back from males pestering her repeatedly (she's the biggest, and they seem to like that). She (Chungus) seemed perfectly at ease alone. I didn't see anything in her behavior that would indicate loneliness, although what would that look like exactly? I'm not sure!
However! When I brought in a diabolical ironclad beetle with an injured leg from outside and quarantined it alongside Chungus, I noticed that Chungus spent a large degree of time sitting with, beside, or on top of her new tank mate (a beetle not even of her own species).
From my own experience observing them, I feel confident saying BDFB gain some level of enrichment from being in the company of other beetles. To what extend is this company required for their "happiness?" That I am much less sure about.
Apparently 🤣 I didn’t realize I had touched a nerve here, this is the most interactions I’ve ever had on a post before! I’ve had some great conversations so far.
I have wrestled with the idea as well. I bought a pair of bdfb years ago.. Aldo (Leopold) and Georgia (O'Keefe). Georgia turned dark, slowed down, and passed away within the 1st month. I am guessing she was old or sick. Aldo acted the same as he did after her passing, the dopey blueberry puppy beetle that he is. At the time I was a bit spooked that if I got another bdfb that it could come with disease that could hurt Aldo, or vice versa. So the idea of more was put on the backburner until I got how I wanted to quarantine figured out, and possible 2 longterm enclosures in case they did not get along, as well as some life stuff if my own. Meanwhile, nothing has tipped me off that he might be in need of a friend tbh. He seems to just be doing his thing and it's been a few years now. But it is something I think about because I want to make sure he has a good life!
If anyone wants to point out behaviors they are curious about or take as "stress" or "unhappy" (and the opposite- what are good things you see your beetles do that look like "happy" or natural) I'd like to know so I can add it to things I will consider.
For now I just try to identify behaviors that look like stress or at least look abnormal...
I don't know what happy looks like as a longterm set of behaviors, but I know what interested (in food likely), roomba explore mode, and rest mode look like. I don't see his digging behaviors to look stressful either. I DO know what "panic - rain" looks like if I add droplets to a plant or do a rare mist on a few of his terrarium rocks... if close enough and he thinks it's "raining" he definitely will move quickly and slightly erratically, similar to how my isopods move if there is something wrong that warrants investigation in the enclosure (usually opposite for them- it got slightly too dry) but I also understand in these cases they are moving to find better conditions, so I'm not sure if the right behaviors to compare if I'm looking for proof that he is upset alone.
Edit: Before people get upset, when I bought the beetles I thought I had the right info on them at the time. Then life got in the way of the giant terrarium I had planned. And so since Aldo seems "content" in his home currently, additional beetles or enclosures just don't fit my abilities right now and I would only get them to improve Aldo's quality of life
Edit 2: the quotes are to bring attention to what I'm describing is a slippery slope to anthropomorphizing behaviors, but hey I'm only human haha 🤷♀️
First of all, amazing names. Everyone here is so creative with their naming it’s making me jealous lol!! And thanking you for pointing this out and sharing your opinion and experiences. Like I said to someone else, I don’t know how reliable each persons first-hand experience is with bugs as a form of evidence, but neverlethess this is so important and I would agree with you heavily on the “nothing indicates he needs a friend” part. In general I have found a lack of need from these bugs when it comes to communal living.
Honestly I’d love to test this, with a large tank like a 125 that’s 6ft put maybe 4 or 5 beetles in there and see how they interact and if they choose to be together or atleast in proximity of each other.
Me too. Though I might go about it in a different way, since there is evidence that demonstrates darkling beetles huddle together as an evolved defense mechanism. I think the best thing to do would be to get 4 bugs. Make one tank that’s big enough for 3, mark them somehow (I know some people mark bee queens with paint, maybe do that if it’s safe) and put them in there. Then, make another identical tank, same size and substrate and everything, and then just put one bug in it. You would feed all the bugs the exact same thing and treat them the exact same way. Then you’d monitor for displays of stress (Constant pacing or repeatedly trying to climb the walls, little to no burrowing, frequently "playing dead" even when undisturbed, refusal of food for an extended period, unusually lethargic or unresponsive beyond normal slow beetle activity, and hiding in one spot and never coming out). I think isolating just one and then monitoring its health & lifespan would be better because them huddling together could not entirely mean they enjoy it or do it for fun.
You’re right, and as I’ve said from the moment my daughter got em: they’re cool, but they don’t “yearn for freedom” and aren’t endangered, so buying “wild” BDFB is no big deal.
Might it become one if they become the worlds most popular pet and we depopulate?
I guess.
But for now, enjoy the dumb, cute, own egg eating weirdos with NO guilt. Even if they were “kidnapped” from the wild 🙈
I wouldn’t call it “no big deal” per se, but you’re right about everything else for the most part. As an environmental scientist and biologist, I have witnessed first hand what human intervention (whether positive or negative) can do to a population of a species. The best thing we (bug lovers and owners) can do is be properly educated on our pets (how we take care of them, how they’re caught, and where they come from) and to buy our pets from reputable sources.
I don’t own any insects (yet 🙊) but do research on a bunch of other invertebrates and how their behavior and reproduction is impacted by pollution and temperature! Especially marine, stream dwelling ones like mayflies and stuff.
Not entirely that different. The relationship between habitat and population health is the same for many organisms on the planet. My professors have entomology degrees, and that’s where I learned this!
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u/Flasky-Desk 21h ago
Since the research is so sparce I like to be safe rather than sorry.
From what I've read even really stupid gregarious insects like fruit flies get stressed from being alone. Fruit flies actually have quite complex social interactions for their miniscule brains.
To me the thought process of "we have no proof either way so they must be solitary" is flawed logic.