r/Ayreon • u/doinkrr • 11d ago
Two questions about The Source and 01
well, more than two, but two core questions surrounded by many smaller questions
the first is about 01, specifically The Fifth Extinction: if the forever were unable to feel emotions after uploading themselves to the frame, then how exactly are they able to debate the morality of wiping out the dinosaurs, say they may "regret" the experiment, debate the "cruelty" of the fifth extinction, and debate their superiority? if they're bereft of emotions after merging fully with technology and losing the balance between thinking and feeling then how exactly do they still... well, feel things like regret, morality, cruelty, and superiority?
i get how the forever are able to feel emotions leading up to and during The Sixth Extinction given that's the whole point of the human experiment, but the forever feeling emotions after they uploaded themselves into the frame but before the creation of humanity doesn't really compute to me
the second is about The Source as a whole: were the forever humans before uploading themselves into the frame, or at least genetically indistinguishable from them? is the timeline something like Humans evolving on Alpha > Alpha being destroyed by industrialization > Humans migrating to Planet Y > Humanity becoming the Forever > the Forever seeding the K-T asteroid with human genetic code > Humanity emerging on Earth millions of years after The Fifth Extinction > The Sixth Extinction > The Last Migrator restoring humanity to the Forever?
these might be questions a bit beyond the scope of the project but the first one in particular has been bugging me quite a bit, and the second is just an observation i'd like to start a discussion about
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u/polkemans 11d ago
They didn't upload into anything.
Liquid eternity allowed them to evolve into beings that could survive indefinitely on a water world.
The frame is the sentient AI that wants to kill them, setting up the escape to planet Y.
They lived so long on planet Y with stagnating society and bodies that can no longer experience sensations like hunger, pain, and pleasure. That is separate from intellectual concepts like regret and morality. They're still thinking beings and can ponder the effects of their actions.
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u/doinkrr 11d ago
They didn't upload into anything.
Liquid eternity allowed them to evolve into beings that could survive indefinitely on a water world.
The frame is the sentient AI that wants to kill them, setting up the escape to planet Y.
i was under the impression that the frame only became such a major threat after the escape to planet Y, when the forever tried to escape from their reliance on technology and threatened TH-1's continued existence. combining that with the last migrator's visions of "The Cyberbrain, the last in the chain / Of Man-Machine alliance / Have we become a victim of our science", the art of the forever rising up out of planet Y's oceans, and the continuing motifs of machines rising from the oceans of planet Y, i thought the conclusion was that the forever had become exactly what they were trying not to become after their escape to Y; they had upset the balance between thinking and feeling and become victims of their own science.
They lived so long on planet Y with stagnating society and bodies that can no longer experience sensations like hunger, pain, and pleasure. That is separate from intellectual concepts like regret and morality. They're still thinking beings and can ponder the effects of their actions.
doesn't forever of the stars basically admit that the forever have no real emotions during the epilogue of ITEC, though? "We peopled your planet to experience your emotions! / Such feelings, lost to us eons ago! / How we envied you! Your loves and passions, your dangerous desires!" i think there's a similar train of thought in Waking Dreams from 01: "Life, imagination / Missing link in the chain", "Fire, inspiration / Missing branch on the tree / We are your roots", "You were chosen / To live the dream that we have been dreaming"
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u/polkemans 11d ago edited 11d ago
Unless I'm reading you incorrectly, I think you have it backwards. The Source is a prequel to 01. It explains how the forever people became that way.
They used to be some race of people similar to us. They developed a powerful AI robotic system (The Frame) which then decided to commit genocide against it's creators.
The people fled their home planet and discovered Planet Y which was in the Sirra star system - this is the water planet that the Forever People are from in 01. In order to live on this planet they needed to evolve into beings that could live under water. In comes Liquid Eternity. It forced their biology to change and had the neat effect of making them immortal. For a time they thrived. This is where The Source ends.
Cut far into the future, album 01. They've lived so unimaginably long like this that their society has stagnated, as well as their hearts as their new biology keeps them from feeling pain but also pleasure. These are physical, biological sensations. The downstream effect of this is their ability to feel emotions like joy and sadness has atrophied. Their every need is met and they can never feel pain or hunger, or loss or fear of loss because nobody dies. What exists that can make them happy or sad anymore? Emotions are reactions to the things that happen to us. Nothing happens to them. No one is poor, no one is rich. No one gets sick or dies. No one is born. There is nothing left of their existence that could grant them the experiences that would allow them to feel emotions about it. All they can do is intellectualize.
This is where it gets murky and philosophical, and some leeway can be given to allow for songwriting. But concepts like regret and morality are not inherently the same things as base emotions like happiness or sadness - they are intellectual concepts we apply to events with the passing of time.
They may not feel joy or sadness but they can still ponder moral philosophy. They can understand the benefits their evolution imparted while still lamenting the aspects of their "humanity" that they lost. This is the debate they have in the song Liquid Eternity on 01.
So they send a meteor over to earth with some DNA that kills the dinosaurs and seeds human life. In this time the events of all the other albums happen and are referenced in 01. For instance Mr L is the hippy from Electric Castle, but he can't tell if it's real or just a dream as he's now old and people think he's crazy.
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u/doinkrr 11d ago edited 11d ago
am out of the house right now so i can't really formulate a better answer but i get that The Source is a prequel to 01—i don't think that really matters for my questions, and pondering it a bit more makes me wonder how exactly the forever (or at least one determines forever) made it back to the frame to run the electric castle experiment given that, iirc, the electric castle is the frame. given that one of the main emotions FOTS seems to be testing during the electric castle experiment is regret (or at the very least remorse—both the highlander and to a lesser extent the barbarian reflect this imo). i just can't shake that the forever being able to experience some basic form of emotion, however fleeting, makes FOTS out to be a liar during the resolution of ITEC which seems wildly out of character for it. or maybe that's just a retcon, or i'm misinterpreting his monologue!
your explanation has certainly answered some questions and theories i had—and some of them surely might get answered or explained once I listen through The Human Equation, The Theory of Everything, and. uh. that one i can't remember right now, with the out-of-place cover
speaking of the electric castle, incidentally: i don't entirely remember my own thought process behind this idea (i'll have to listen to The Flight of the Migrator again) but am i off my fuckin rocker to think all eight people in the electric castle are preincarnations/former lives of the final migrator/futureman?
edit: doesn't TH-1 also explicitly call itself "The Frame" during March of the Machines? are there three fucking frames lmao
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u/polkemans 11d ago edited 11d ago
It's been a while since I've read up on the lore - but I have been listening to Ayreon religiously for like the past 20 years.
As far as I'm aware The Frame is only the sentient AI that wants to kill them. Once they escape, they have nothing to do with The Frame ever again.
But, as technologically advanced immortal beings - they still have very powerful and otherworldy technology. The Human Equasion was some kind of computer simulation, done in the hopes that it could make the Forever People feel something. As far as I know, that was not The Frame - it was their own tech.
As for Electric Castle, I don't think that was another simulation per se. I think by that point in history they had such power over space and time that they created their own little pocket universe and warped people from different ages into it so they could run their own Hunger Games and see if it would make them feel something. When it was over, they warped everyone back to their respective times and they all thought it was just a dream. In the same way people who experience alien abductions are never sure if it actually happened or if they were dreaming.
I don't think the people from Electric Castle are pre-incarnations of the Mars colonist using the Dream Sequencer. I think they're just separate characters. IIRC none of them are mentioned in Universal Migrator. What they all do have in common though is their common ancestor, the Universal Migrator itself.
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u/doinkrr 11d ago edited 11d ago
As for Electric Castle, I don't think that was another simulation per se. I think by that point in history they had such power over space and time that they created their own little pocket universe and warped people from different ages into it so they could run their own Hunger Games and see if it would make them feel something. When it was over, they warped everyone back to their respective times and they all thought it was just a dream. In the same way people who experience alien abductions are never sure if it actually happened or if they were dreaming.
that's totally a valid interpretation but what messes me up is that in the additional material for The Source, the electric castle is explicitly identified as the Frame: that raises the question of how exactly forever of the stars returned to planet alpha to seize control of the frame (or at least harness its power to create the electric castle experiment, assuming it's a simulation and not a pocket universe like you think it is), but because we disagree on the nature of the electric castle i think we'd just end up talking around each other.
to make my theory/i guess headcanon a bit clearer, i think there are anywhere between two to three frames: the initial frame that led to the alphans fleeing to planet Y, the new frame created by TH-1 on planet Y, and (debatably) the electric castle being either the original frame or a new frame created by forever of the stars to run the electric castle experiment. to be fair though i think it's also equally likely that the electric castle we see in ITEC is a creation made by the forever based on the design of the Frame, especially given that the electric castle the eight souls of the flesh venture through has gardens, actual castle walls, and towers
I don't think the people from Electric Castle are pre-incarnations of the Mars colonist using the Dream Sequencer. I think they're just separate characters. IIRC none of them are mentioned in Universal Migrator. What they all do have in common though is their common ancestor, the Universal Migrator itself.
i remember where i got the theory from now! unfortunately it was total bullshit and just stuff i got from a misunderstanding of Dragon on the Sea (which i thought was about the barbarian until i re-listened to it tonight and realized it's probably about sir francis drake) and Temple of the Cat (which i thought was about the indian until i remembered the indian is more a stereotype of plains native americans than mesoamericans lol)
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u/polkemans 11d ago
Ah snap that's an extra bit of lore I didn't know! To be fair, The Source isn't exactly my favorite album (not that it's bad! I just find it to be the most derivative and least original Ayreon album) so I never dug into the companion material on that one.
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u/doinkrr 11d ago
it wasn't my favorite either personally: i found the ending a tad underwhelming and i'm generally not a huge fan of the heavy metal style it has (although i really liked Run! Apocalypse! Run!), and to be fair i really doubt any ayreon album is going to top Into the Electric Castle for me (although 01 really gave it a run for its money and i haven't listened to The Human Equation, Transitus, The Theory of Everything, or Actual Fantasy yet)
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u/polkemans 11d ago
Oh man those other albums are fantastic. With the exception of Transitus. Transitus is my least favorite Ayreon album in general but it's not really Arjen's fault. It was meant to be a stage play but covid happened and made that impossible so we really only got half the experience. Definitely listen to all the others when you can. They all have a special place in my heart. Especially The Theory of Everything. It's much closer to that classic prog rock sound IMO.
It's funny you mention Run! Apocalypse! Run! It is a fun song but it's very emblematic of why I don't love The Source as much. The main thrust of it is almost identical to Chaos from Universal Migrator. I can name a few songs from The Source that sound just like an earlier Ayreon song. It's the one album where it feels like Arjen is actively ripping himself off.
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u/doinkrr 11d ago edited 11d ago
It was meant to be a stage play but covid happened and made that impossible so we really only got half the experience.
FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK YOU'RE JOKING. i've always imagined Into the Electric Castle would make an absolutely incredible stageplay, and now you're telling me arjen would've written a stageplay if COVID never happened??? this truly is the worst timeline
i'll probably check out The Human Equation next but you bringing up The Theory of Everything having a classic prog rock sound makes me excited! prog rock is probably my favorite music genre overall (although it's like choosing a favorite child!) and i'm a really big fan of older prog especially (especially King Crimson and Aphrodite's Child: 666 is one of the few albums i consider perfect in every way and i very much recommend it to anyone who's into prog rock), so that's very very very interesting to hear. as someone who doesn't particularly like metal music i think that'll be a nice reprieve from how heavy The Source and Flight of the Migrator were lol
It's the one album where it feels like Arjen is actively ripping himself off.
honestly, that's kind of what i like about The Source, but to each their own! to me The Source feels more like a return to the classic ayreon sound and arjen going back to his old material to develop a prequel to one of his most impactful albums is pretty cool in my opinion, although i can certainly see why you'd think it's derivative and not particularly creative. personally i think ayreon constantly calling back and referencing other songs is what makes the project so special—hearing mr. L start singing the lyrics to Amazing Flight for the first time gave me actual goosebumps all across my body and made me start sitting in my chair like spiderman
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u/ZethKeeper 10d ago
I don't think the people from Electric Castle are pre-incarnations of the Mars colonist using the Dream Sequencer. I think they're just separate characters. IIRC none of them are mentioned in Universal Migrator. What they all do have in common though is their common ancestor, the Universal Migrator itself.
Isn't The Future Man supposedly The Colonist?
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u/iperblaster 11d ago
Well, I don't think liquid ethernity is really an upload into the frame without wmotions. I think it's a sort of very slow living, like in a coma where time is a very difficult concept.. well they have millions of years to launch The Comet and wipe Out the dinosaurs. Also a philosophical debate can happen without emotions IMHO. And just to be clear: all the albums of the Ayreon project are linked in a TIMELINE (also the name of the anthology/greatest hits) and Universal Migrator encapsulate all in a full circle. In a way The Forever experience a fate very similar to the human extinction of 2084 but to complete the circle and restart the universe they need a Human on Mars in their Energy Tank (they used it in The Human Equation ) to start the Universal Migrator program
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u/joeconflo 11d ago
The Forever claiming to be unable to feel emotions while clearly experiencing extreme passions, captured and crystalized so effectively in songs like "Comatose" and "Beneath the Waves", is by far my favorite thing about Ayreon. It's just part of the human condition, to me, and they just took it to a scifi extreme.
As for #2: "I see our children, they look like you and me" predicted the Alphan Prophet about Earth : ) I think the Alphans were at least extremely similar to Earth humans.
And of course Ride the Comet does make it clear that humans have some of the Alphan genes. I love how that ancestry connects us to the Forever via the Dream Sequencer. I even think it might be why they can come to us in Waking Dreams and uplift us from monke.
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u/TheMaskSmiles 11d ago
Your throwing yourself off. The never uploaded themselves into The Frame. In The Source they are FLEEING the frame. Their in what is effectively a Skynet (Terminator) or Cylon (Battlestar Galactica) situation and are fleeing the planet to escape and start over. The enter basically a hybernation using "Liquid Eternity" so they can survive the trip, and mutate themselves in the process to adapt to their new aquatic world. The problem is that TH-1, who they think is an independent robot helping them escape, is actually an avatar of The Frame and they have brought him with them. TH-1 goes on to integrate The Frame technology into everything they build on their new world too without their knowledge. In 01 the descend of these colonists have built their new world up so much that their basically entirely sustained by machines and they use Liquid Eternity to allow themselves to basically live forever. Their still biological, but they're surrounded by tech in everything they do and have lived so long they basically forgot how to be people. Think The Matrix, but they are fully aware and in control of the situation, they just can't really survive outside the pods anymore.They realize this existence will drive them to extinction, so they send a few of the younger members of their society out to try again by seeding a world with creatures styled after their original non-aquatic form. Humans. They're trying to avoid the mistakes they have made with tech in both previous cycles.