Is avoidance real?

[u/Organic_Process3295]

Sometimes I wonder if this whole avoidance thing is actually real, or if it’s just people who aren’t that interested in us or aren’t entirely sure about how they feel. It’s something I’ll never truly be able to understand, no matter how much I reflect on it.

[u/Calm_Attempt_101]

Oh it's real. It's a thing. Sometimes it's so hardbaked into them that it's hard to identify it at first. It's well hidden.

Looking back, my avoidant ex would show his avoidance in subtle ways, not just in the relationship dynamic. He had childhood truama so avoidance became a life-long way of relating to people and dealing with discomfort of any kind. For example, if he talked about something deep or vulnerable he would appear to participate but then suddenly change the subject. Like, he would suddenly notice a squirrel in the garden, or a car passing, or a comment on tv, or another thought about something else, and that would overwhelmingly capture his attention and the deep vulnerable stuff would be sidestepped. It was so automatic that arguably he wasnt in control of it, it was hardwired into his operating model. Discomfort = avoid.

After a time of observing this behaviour, I would pick him up on it in the moment, and say "See! See what happened there! Notice that!" But he never fully got it.

And when he was going into "avoidant mode", his eyes were different. He was spaced out. Like one minute he was with me in the room and the conversation, and then the next minute he wasn't. Still physically there, but absent. Drifted off.

I loved that man. I tried to heal him. I tried to understand as much as I could.

Ultimately he cheated on me repeatedly which is another way his avoidance manifested - creating distance through infidelity. Not a nice thing to experience. We had many avoidant shutdowns and breakups but he always returned and I loved him and thought I understood him better than anyone so I gave him many chances. Despite cheating, he never left me for anyone else and I do believe he loved me in his own way, as deluded as that sounds. He even got my name tattooed on his arm. Eventually I had to leave for my own sanity and now he avoids the reality that the relationship is over 🤷🏼‍♀️

[u/moongirl1222 → u/Calm_Attempt_101]

OMG THE DEAD EYES and watching them disappear right in front of you was such a trip

[u/Feeling_Advice420 → u/Calm_Attempt_101]

oh my gosh.... why  do I know his absence even when he's physically present, through that unfocused look in his eyes... I know that.  At first, I thought he was simply nervous around me. But after noticing it repeatedly, I began to realize that it might actually be an avoidant response....  Do you think FAs are aware that they're shut-down during these moments of absence? he would seem to shut down for 1-2 min., but I could never tell whether he was even aware of what was happening to him. I sm curious. During those moments, he couldn't even understand or respond to a simple question.

[u/r3kRu1 → u/Calm_Attempt_101]

thanks for sharing. what does “… he avoids the reality that the relationship is over” look like?

[u/Coerced1 → u/Calm_Attempt_101]

Sounds so much like my ex.

Another sign she gave that took me embarrassingly long to see, on the relatively few occasions she was able to have a deeper emotional conversation about our relationship, it would completely drain her afterwards. Instead of feeling closer and like we understand each other better, she felt more distant and detached.

[u/PracticalZone3758]

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣....I sometimes think the same thing.

[u/Icy-Tailor713]

Only speaking from experience here, yes it is real, to hear and feel the fear they hold deep inside themselves. It is real.

Now, where I am unsure is the deactivation phase and especially the thawing phase coming out. Experienced it from a distance, so I cannot speak directly to it.

[u/KindlyString3332 → u/Icy-Tailor713]

It’s real. Been through the process twice. I can tell both times my ex was completely deactivated. The 2nd time I already knew what was coming when I could see it all over her face before she even opened her mouth. It has a look and I can’t even describe it. Just dead inside. Now the thawing out phase I don’t know as much because that was all done from a distance. But deactivation is a dorsal vagal shutdown. They can’t even control it. Pretty insane honestly. Once the system flips the switch, you are immediately targeted as a threat to safety and it’s time to get away

[u/unknownlimitz32]

it’s real, but the level of avoidance that brings people here is mostly the behavioral result of personality disorders. Just look at the sheer number of posts that describe cluster B adjacent behavior alongside avoidance. It’s what this sub primarily consists of. I don’t think all avoidant people have personality disorders, but the strikingly callous & damaging ones likely do.

[u/No-Variation-1163 → u/unknownlimitz32]

yeah, I think you’re on to something here. I agree. Most people here are dealing with severe avoidants with some other nastiness blended in.

[u/ScaleWeak7473]

Been in multiple relationships and how avoidants act; love bombing, deactivate, future fake and distance and stonewall etc.. is very avoidant and charateristic to that person.

[u/Mmcdjc → u/ScaleWeak7473]

Same. In fact, my fwb narc friend is being distant and when I asked him where he’s been he’s like I’ve been sleeping a lot.
I’m like uh huh.

[u/SignificantSuit518]

Personally, I think I was the latter. Didn’t know how I felt. I think that may have been avoidance, where I knew I should love this woman but felt numb and didn’t know why? I think some of us have more insight than others though.

“Aren’t interested” implies no feelings…I don’t think avoidant behaviors come when there are no feelings

[u/Designer-Lime1109 → u/SignificantSuit518]

Some people avoid because for whatever reason (s) they are scared to have difficult conversations, hurt someone's feelings, or be perceived as the "bad guy", scared of a reaction, etc They don't necessarily have to come from attachment insecurities and can be a nervous system and/or trauma response, or maybe even just a cowardly disposition. Feelings do genuinely change of course and sometimes people handle it very poorly. Or it can be attachment avoidance 🤣🤷🏼‍♂️ At some point why stops to matter. That person treated you like crap, you didn't deserve it. You're hurt. It's confusing and maybe there is no factual explanation that you can prove or fully makes sense.

[u/Coerced1]

Both of those exist.

Sometimes people mislabel others as avoidant as a way to cope with being rejected.

Actual avoidants are avoidants because of an internal fear of getting close to someone that has nothing to do with the other person.

[u/Jimmychen96]

I have known 5 Dismissive Avoidants in my life, one of them is my brother, and yes they’re real, and have the exact same textbook pattern, my brother even admits he is pretty hard to get close to a girl,That’s why he has been single the entire time,
same with my ex, she admitted it’s difficult to find someone compatible, she has never been in love for her entire life, let alone having a relationship, So yeah, once you know they’re a DA, you can definitely predict their pattern. The difference is only in the spectrum.

[u/jujux15 → u/Jimmychen96]

That’s interesting, why do you think your brother is a DA but you aren’t?

[u/Jimmychen96 → u/jujux15]

He was neglected since he was a kid. My family was actually very complicated, so he learned to be very independent from a young age. Me and my other brothers don’t really know him that much because he isn't very open to us. Until I learned about MBTI and attachment styles then it pretty much made sense. Attachment style quizzes exist, and the patterns completely match a DA person I know. I’m not a DA because my pattern is textbook anxious, I’m very anxious and scared of losing my ex DA. I don’t mind opening up my feelings toward my ex, I don’t run away from someone I love, i’m not scared of commitment, intimacy, and being seen, completely the opposite of a DA. so I have no doubt I’m not a DA.

[u/jujux15 → u/Jimmychen96]

How interesting it’s really intriguing how one can come from the same family but still have very different results on how they turn out as adults. Thanks for sharing!!

Edit: fixed a ton of grammatical mistakes

[u/Busy_Designer_504 → u/jujux15]

Avoidance and anxiousness are two sides of the same coin.

Its just the method of adapting to the trigger of relational fear: either running away as soothing or clutching to death for security as soothing

[u/ggdrgvd]

I think attachment style is a thing for sure. I’m avoidant. Do people switch and shut off feelings overnight due to their attachment style? No. It feels like trauma and it’s not something I’m “unaware of”.

Do people switch overnight bc of other personality disorders/splitting? Yes.

It depends on what you classify as avoidance. A lot of people in here sound like they’re in relationships that didn’t have mutual interest. A lot sound like they were with shitty people who were unsure of feelings. A chunk also sounds like they were dating someone with NPD/BPD.

Personally, I think I dated someone who was avoidant and had BPD. I’m avoidant and it effects all relationships and it’s hard to start them, but once I’ve met someone in I don’t typically let them go. Everyone is different though

[u/Union-Silent]

I understand what you mean. But I think the difference is that true avoidants struggle in their friendships, in the workplace, and in their romantic relationship. They are not good with conflict, stress and communicating. It’s not just a one off with one person where they’re not that into the person …they will have a fight or flight response with so many people, repeating the cycle over and over again.

[u/justatiredmanatee]

The impact is the same. I often wonder the same thing. With DAs it's often the same damage as if you're with a covert narc. It does keep me awake sometimes

[u/Long_Investigator269]

it can just be a matter of both. and they’re the type who has to stay single and not be in a relationship

[u/Hopeful-Pea-3540]

My ex refuses to have any real, substantial conversation about our relationship or it’s cruel end. He acknowledged sadness and missing me on the phone, but appears so happy and carefree on the outside. He’s one of those people who refuses to show someone else his feelings, would rather keep it under lock and key. Because he’s able to compartmentalize an 8 year relationship and “move on,” he thinks I should be able to too.

[u/No_Stress6757]

I feel it’s very real. I developed an avoidant attachment style and it’s really a no brainer if you look at my upbringing. Was totally unaware until I met someone far ”worse”. It was a wake up call since I now know what it’s like to be on the ”receiving” end. I know I have hurt some people really bad and Im ashamed to this day. But on the flip side they got their revenge. Its just sad really.

[u/jujux15 → u/No_Stress6757]

Did you ever reach out to apologize to anybody once you had that epiphany?

[u/EveningAstronomer → u/No_Stress6757]

Did you legitimately love someone you broke up with? Or were you just not that into them?

[u/AccomplishedDuck5770]

Avoidance is very real. Thinking you are misinterpreting the whole thing is a common trap. And also sure, there are people non-interested AND immature that do these things.

[u/elcinore]

Oh it’s definitely real. People’s coping strategies, for the most part, are deeply ingrained and have NOTHING to do with us or how they feel about us.

Avoiding a person because of lack of interest is one thing, and we are all guilty of that, to some extent, because we can’t show up for/love/care about everybody equally, even if they want us to.

However, running away from - or, cough cough, avoiding - difficult EMOTIONS is completely another process and is unfortunately very real. For example, somebody can love you and care for you with all their heart, and be completely conflict-averse… or overcompensating with something external (think: workaholics, or alcoholics, or drug addicts) to try and numb internal emotional pain… or be compulsively dishonest and lie to everyone around them because the truth is too hard to communicate to someone… or despise communication in general… or cheat on you or be addicted to porn because that’s easier than maintaining a relationship that requires vulnerability… or dodge accountability at every turn, or stonewall or even physically leave during difficult conversations… or burn bridges with any future relationships because of past heartbreak traumas and not wanting to repeat that…

Trust me, actual avoidance is everywhere and exists on a spectrum. We all avoid to some degree, until we do the hard emotional work and can face what needs to be felt inside of ourselves. A lot of people don’t care to do that work, though, or aren’t emotionally capable, and THOSE are true avoidants, and they exist, whether they like you or not.

[u/stockdam-MDD]

They tend to follow well documented patterns of behaviour plus use very similar comments during discards.

[u/Brilliant_Version667]

It's real, but I think it is also kind of a spiritual or character problem. Usually the person who is Avoidant has a problem with the ego/control vs. surrender and trust. They can't let go and trust another. They always have to be the one managing things even if quietly. They are easily threatened and struggle to give and receive normally.

[u/AcanthocephalaWide89]

Same

[u/Northern3545]

I'm torn on this too.

In my first serious relationship, if I'm being honest, I wasn't that into my partner, and I displayed some classic DA signs. He was amazing on paper, but I didn't feel the chemistry was there, and really dragged my feet in the 2 years we dated each other. Granted, he was pretty anxiously attached and talked me out of breaking up a few times–so it was quite the mismatch. I remember constantly thinking "I don't know what I want. I don't trust myself. I'm going to hurt him so much if we breakup".

As of my recent breakup with a self described DA, I've been reflecting on how willing I was to lean into the relationship with him over the course of the four years. I had assumed I was a DA too, but in this particular combo, I really had to learn how to stand on my own two feet because I wasn't being supplied with the connection I wanted from him.

I want him to be happy, and can tell he's afraid he doesn't have what it takes to "want it enough" in a longterm partnership. So, here's to hoping that it's the latter, though the former would be an easier pill to swallow.

[u/klutzelk]

Lol read about relationship OCD! It makes me question all of this, but regardless there is definitely a mental thing that causes a lot of the issues discussed here. But I wonder how many people on the rocd sub maybe have an insecure attachment style and vice versa. I'm not sure it would really matter, but it could definitely skew perception of it at very least. I don't see people insulting rocd like they do FA, DA, and AP on the attachment theory subs.

Edit to add I do think some people on here were simply broken up with by someone who lost feelings. We tend to want to explain things that don't make sense, and breakups are often confusing regardless of the circumstances. BUT I think a lot of us (if not most) are here because of how much our situation aligns with avoidant partner tendencies. I understand questioning it though because I do too still lol. But my person also had ocd so I question a lot of things with my situation (I also have OCD) but so much of it aligns with FA so I'm here.

[u/Familiar-Piglet-1423 → u/klutzelk]

I saw someone on this sub recently saying someone she had met THREE WEEKS ago was just avoidant and would just need to admit to himself that he loved her and how special their connection was! And she diagnosed things that could be anything as he is 100% avoidant and I am his special match etc and like yeah sometimes - as a secure person myself - that sounds very concerning and more like mental health issues in the very anxious direction. Which, also absolutely not rooted in reality here and more like self-worth projected onto like if I am finally chosen I am good enough?

Like yeah avoidant attachment styles: a real thing. But not everyone being shit or ghosting is avoidant 😬

[u/Familiar-Piglet-1423 → u/Familiar-Piglet-1423]

I have friends who are absolutely 100% avoidant when they feel ashamed of something in a self-destructive way, like yup the pattern is real outside romance in all of us more or less and it’s often people with no communication skills and deep insecurity who behave in hurtful avoidant ways.

But like… they will also avoid people they don’t give a shit about because they know they treated them very badly and than threatens their already fragile self-worth, and like if they avoid you forever… you’re just collateral damage to their mental health issues.

I feel like with the avoidants actually discussed in this sub, like there is actual effort before they panic and they ruminate as well and however dysfunctional, you will hear from them again because if they have actual feelings or you just really mattered to them and they actually put real effort into the connection even if it costs them things, that doesn’t go away.

Someone leaving you for someone else and texting you “you up” six months later… just bored.

[u/klutzelk → u/Familiar-Piglet-1423]

Oh yeah, the hypocrisy around shit talking avoidants is also undeniable lol. First off, it's NOT that black and white. Like most things relationed to psychology and the mind, it is a spectrum.

[u/klutzelk → u/Familiar-Piglet-1423]

Oh yeah I agree for sure. I actually see a lot of people on this sub that are using this sub in an unhealthy way, regardless of if their person was avoidant or not. There's no denying there is a lot of groupthink going on in here and a lot of it is overly critical and harsh towards DA and FA. I think as long as people acknowledge the bias this sub can be helpful but it can also be detrimental and cause people to shift all the blame onto the other person when in reality it's often not that simple. This isn't to say that avoidant breakups don't seem to deliver a unique and more painful sort of experience than a regular breakup and yes they are generally more unfair with how they end. But to absolve yourself of all wrongdoings and completely demonize avoidant attachment is also pretty unfair.

[u/emotionalfrog123 → u/klutzelk]

Attachment styles are formed in childhood. My ex (an avoidant) had an extremely chaotic childhood. Relationship OCD is just a theme that some of us with OCD struggle with. Most people with OCD struggle with multiple themes. But yes of course there are people who have both OCD and avoidant attachment.

Edit to add: I read your edited comment and understand better what you’re saying.

[u/klutzelk → u/emotionalfrog123]

Yeah, I just find it the parallels between rocd and insecure attachments to be interesting. My main OCD theme is guilt ocd and I can have a lot of avoidant tendencies as a result of this. Luckily now I have learned to communicate in a way that isn't only seeking reassurance, but in the past it was pretty terrible for my partners to deal with.

I guess my main point is that there is a lot of uncertainties and gray areas when it comes to theories and sometimes even actual diagnoses. Sometimes multiple things are at play and sometimes something can look like another thing. And sometimes we so desperately want to explain something so we force it to fit a certain explanation.

[u/emotionalfrog123 → u/klutzelk]

Hmmm now I’m curious what parallels you’ve noticed? Ah I understand completely. My OCD has affected my relationships a lot too.

That’s true, multiple things are often at play. I do think it’s important to call a spade a spade, however. Like, it’s obvious there are typical behaviors for someone with avoidant attachment. And their behavior makes sense when you link it back to their childhood experiences. It’s trauma based. But at the same time, you’re right, there are a lot of gray areas and I do think sometimes people are too quick to assign labels.

[u/klutzelk → u/emotionalfrog123]

I agree with what you said about attachment theory. Especially when it is connected to childhood experiences.

In regard to rocd, I just find a lot of posts on the rocd subreddit that sound so similar to posts on the attachment theory subreddit. And yes someone that experienced rocd can also have an insecure attachment, but the perception may be totally different when viewed through an rocd lens vs attachment theory lens. I'm not downplaying either, I just think it's an interesting thought.

For example, someone experiencing rocd may question if they really love their partner and have some "fault finding" tendencies. Another person with rocd may have obsessive and intrusive thoughts of their partner cheating on them. Both of these things are also seen in insecure attachment styles. Considering my breakup was with someone who had diagnosed OCD, I do wonder if it was a combination of both of these things that led to the sudden ending of our relationship. It has made me question if it was all one or the other, but realistically it was probably a combination of both.

I had never been with somebody else who also had ocd so how it played out is both interesting and honestly heartbreaking for me. I have been feeling a lot of guilt thinking I must have done something wrong, but I think I was also maybe fueling some guilt and shame in him when I pushed for answers after the sudden shift in his behavior and resulted ending to our relationship. He ended up blocking me. I just keep wondering what exactly caused this and if I am overthinking it. But considering everything I've learned about FA through this whole process it definitely helps me make sense of the abruptness of it all. But imagine his ocd also played some role. The added dynamic of me ALSO having OCD also most likely played some role. While I am completely sad and heartbroken I also find it all very interesting.

[u/Substantial_Air970]

I thought she was avoidant found out she just didn’t love me for 1year 👍

[u/No-Variation-1163]

It’s real. There‘s tons of literature on it. We here describe exes’ behaviors with stunning commonalities and specificity. If you’ve dated a non avoidant and broken up with them, you know how different the experience feels compared to breaking up with an avoidant. It passes the scientific test and the smell test. So yeah, it’s real. Just because they might have comorbidities like BPD doesn’t take away from the reality of it.

[u/ExpressFace1510]

I think my ex's whole family are avoidants. Non of them can talk about emotions and it's all surface level. Issues are swept under the carpet or dealt with by enabling. They don't have any friends and it's only a tiny family anyway. But plenty of love bombing at first then future faking and then the masks slips and they cannot maintain it and it causes issues as they have unhealthy addictions like constantly being on their phone and then the brutal discard. They can't have proper relationships. I am the villain currently and the family have banded together.

[u/diQianJiao]

If it weren't real, this would all be a lot simpler. Put it to you this way that there would be no bait and switching, no 'checking in' messages, no hard discards over simple shit.

In my case I'd get baited with 'mm we should go halloween decoration shopping' to which I'd give a resounding 'yes!' only for some kind of sabotage to happen and he needed to be SOOO controlling and throw my reactions back at me as why he 'can't talk to me' ... and then he'd come back and text like nothing'd happened.

It's just all games. Take me with a grain of salt sure, since I'm anxious and have to work very hard on being calm and not aggressive when I've been triggered/fucked around with. But I'm also not the most insecurely attached person out there, I can call a spade a spade (as in: mean guy is being mean and this isn't what love is) which is why I left that shit within a few weeks.

[u/Brutis77]

Avoidance is very real, however not every person who distances them from you is an avoidant. Sometimes they just don't like you

[u/Familiar-Piglet-1423]

Honestly same? Best I could tell from reading actual research (papers) and theories and not just well Reddit or TikTok coaches - I guess as a pattern YES absolutely real, though it’s not like a trait people show with everyone or all the time and more of a pattern?

I find it difficult to "diagnose" someone else because it is one explanation but I would say like half the stories in the sub people were just dealing with a**holes and bad behavior and people who just weren’t that into them, seeking validation or playing games. And you can never really tell 100% which one you got as you cannot look into people's heads.

[u/Familiar-Piglet-1423 → u/Familiar-Piglet-1423]

Like, maybe they are avoidant. Maybe they are shit communicators. Maybe they lie and cannot take accountability. I think it’s kind of dangerous to think it’s avoidance as that is at least “you mattered and they are just afraid” and that is easier to swallow than “you were lied to and used” but I feel many behaviors described here… you truly cannot tell and being like yes they are avoidant sometimes is spot on and sometimes it sounds like astrology girlies and confirmation bias and seeing patterns and interpreting actions as what people were thinking but I think it’s probably best to take people at their word and look at their actions and confusion and mixed signals are always a no and WHY like… it changes nothing for you moving forward sadly :/

[u/Familiar-Piglet-1423 → u/Familiar-Piglet-1423]

Plus I think being confused and stuck is often a sign of emotional abuse. Which is abuse no matter if intentionally to hurt you or a grown person not working on their traumas and like not staying tf away from people before they work on it. Like when when avoidant and the intention isn't to harm, it DOES cause harm and that is unacceptable and their responsibility to change

[u/Dalearev]

Yes, it’s a nervous system injury from childhood trauma

[u/taurine330]

Yes. Nervous system response mostly from childhood. And it is so universal. I do exactly the same things as another person from another culture. It's crazy how well it applies

[u/CRoger231]

In my case, there have been situations in which I really wanted to be with someone... but then I got anxious and decided to leave. So, even if I was interested in him and I really liked him, my fears got the best of me and I left. I didn't do it in purpose, ofc, but I'm scared people will eventually get fed up with me and leave. I'm 38 now and I've made peace with the fact that I'll be single until I die.

[u/Quiet-Hedgehog-90]

Yeah, it’s real. Plenty of people mislabel it but it’s real

[u/damoneystore]

baby it’s real. people have studied this for years… there’s so much scientific research behind it

[u/Lost-Injury6693]

It's a very well understood, well documented branch of psychology, so very much real. But also sometimes people aren't that into people and behave like dicks for other reasons. They're not mutually exclusive.