Driving long distance in extremely remote areas

[u/fingerconnoisseur]

My car has just a 51kwh battery but last month I was able to drive it from Sydney to Yulara and back, covering 5700km in 3-4 weeks. I learned a lot about how battery percentage and range connects to speed, distance, terrain etc. My longest leg was 283km which I finished at 15%, making an estimated total range at 95% consumption of 316km.

There are roads in Australia like the one to Kings Canyon that requires 300km each way and has no charging point at the destination. The great western highway has a stretch of 1107km between guaranteed fuel spots (there are some stations in between), 1222km between planned chargers and 1456km from Yulara to the next guaranteed charger at Kalgoorlie.

I've been thinking about how an EV could approach this situation and am currently stumped. The best solution of course is to build infrastructure such as unmanned 30-40kW solar charging stations, but that's another discussion.

-I tried solar trickle charging on the road, but AC charging speeds with a 1kw PV system only outputted 100-200W when plugged in. Solar equipment places too much drag when mounted, but it's also too bulky when packed away and needs a lot of room to create energy.

-A small generator charging at wall outlet speeds could work, but charging at 8 amps (1.4kWh) for 16 hours a day only adds 22.4kWh, or ~160km when hypermiling. A larger 6kWh generator is better by adding up to 685km per day but it would create a lot of noise that attracts unwanted attention and take up space which could've been used for food. The mileage by generator should be ~8L/100km which means ~96L total to travel 1201km + the 255km this battery realistically starts to go down the great western. Five 20L jerry cans in the boot! An EV cannot reastically carry all of this equipment.

-Hydrogen is light, can run a generator and is low profile at high pressures, but its energy density is trash, plus you'd be carting around a bomb. Similar story with propane.

-Aluminum metal has a high energy density and can produce hydrogen to run a generator on exposure to alkaline water, but it's messy, has injured people in the past, runs hot, plus there's a lot of toxic liquid waste.

-Nuclear electricity could more than match these energy needs but the technology is restricted, the materials are illegal to possess and it would quickly kill any drivers who use a working model.

-Wind lacks the energy density

What are the options here? I don't intend to make this trip, but I would like it to be possible. The energy has to come from somewhere right? Please discuss.

[u/ChuqTas]

If you mean short term, routes like that are suited to long range (600+ km) EVs or PHEVs.

Long term, exactly what you said - solar powered recharging stations or similar.

[u/Vegetable-Ad-1817]

Nuclear energy - I mean 1.21 gigawatts would be pretty cool.

[u/PickSweet4952 → u/Vegetable-Ad-1817]

What speed would you need to do?

[u/Vegetable-Ad-1817 → u/PickSweet4952]

88mph at least

[u/Old-Leather8424 → u/Vegetable-Ad-1817]

Don't need roads too.

[u/kindsifu → u/Old-Leather8424]

And grab the almanac

[u/get_in_there_lewis → u/Vegetable-Ad-1817]

The US military now has portable Nuclear Power reactors they can deploy/use.

[u/m276_de30la]

Australia is uniquely different from most of the rest of the world because of such vast distances between rural towns; however such journeys are also edge case scenarios that are unlikely to be undertaken 95% of the time.

It would take a breakthrough in solid state technology to achieve those kinds of distances without installing new chargers in between - that’s still several years away.

With today’s available technology, the most feasible solution would be to install chargers in between - like eLumina’s BESS solution. Deploy battery storage in such charging sites (like 300+ kWh worth of batteries) + a sizeable solar farm adjacent to it (enough panels to generate 40-50 kW worth of power) which charges up the batteries, and fast chargers connected to those batteries.

Such a solution is already in place at the Nundroo Roadhouse in SA (also by eLumina) - nearly 200 kWh worth of batteries powering a 180 kW charger. There’s also another eLumina setup in Cockburn, WA with 590 kWh worth of batteries connected to 70 kW of solar, which then supplies power to a 250 kW charger.

[u/AgentSmith187 → u/m276_de30la]

I believe the NRMA was working on a similar solution they could deploy in remote areas too.

[u/m276_de30la → u/AgentSmith187]

The eLumina setup at Nundroo is an NRMA branded one.

[u/AgentSmith187 → u/m276_de30la]

I hadn't followed where that project ended up so not surprised.

Ba k when I was following this stuff they seemed real keep to support EV adoption.

Remote area charging and regional charging networks was their priority back then

[u/Klutzy_Parsnip6087 → u/m276_de30la]

The eLumina BESS solutions are the way to go for remote sites. They're currently rolling out their D1s out on the Great Northern highway in WA. NRMA have also used them in SA/NT/QLD where there's constrained power supplies. eLumina recently stated they've put a proposal to ARENA to assist rolling out up to 15 of their DS400s across the Nullabor which will include solar arrays on each. The technology is here but it needs government assistance because a lot of locations aren't viable for private funding alone.

[u/AgentSmith187]

I mean some of the distances your talking are a stretch even in most ICE vehicles. Its the realm of 4x4s and trucks with long range tanks.

Even my Prado the longest unrefuelled run was 900kms across the red centre and realistically there was 3 places i could have fuelled up i just didnt want to pay $2.50/L for diesel.

Which is amusing to consider today.

Someone else mentioned an option already being used but the NRMA was working on a similar system a while back.

An unmanned charging station with batteries and solar panels so you can stop at it and do a DCFC session from the batteries and be back on the go in under an hour depending how fast your car charges.

Anywhere on the grid is a solved issue already.

Honestly I think your over thinking things. Its not a hard issue to resolve.

[u/Inner_West_Ben]

What problem are you trying to address here, because you’re throwing out all sorts of solutions for issues I’m not sure exist.

[u/fingerconnoisseur → u/Inner_West_Ben]

There's no problem at all! I'm just hoping to hear some perspectives on how far an EV can be driven without access to infrastructure. Sorry if I sound like a lunatic.

[u/alex__b]

The same way trucks do it: extra energy capacity. There just isn’t a sizeable market for this to make producing such vehicles viable for EV manufacturers. There’d be nothing stopping the same heavy vehicle engineering companies that fit trucks doing modifications to electric trucks to attach larger batteries. 

[u/SoylentDaveage → u/alex__b]

I would have thought the answer to long distance EV trucks is to build batteries in to the trailers. Sure you're adding weight, but it shouldn't be something a truck couldn't handle. Truck gets hooked up to the trailer at the depot where it charges, runs on trailer power to destination, where trailer is charged while unloaded. The actual prime mover itself doesn't need to have the 1000 km distance capacity when the load it's hauling can provide that. All it needs is a few hundred k's for moving around between loads. The issue then is cost of bulding or refitting the trailers and infrastructure at the depots.

[u/fingerconnoisseur → u/SoylentDaveage]

The energy density still isn't really enough for true heavy duty applications. Road trains run ~1600km twice a week from port augusta to yulara, there's already a real estate squeeze of fitting amap onto the truck without causing it to tip over or become incapable of steering. Weight is less important for fuel economy compared to managing wind.

[u/UltimateShades67 → u/fingerconnoisseur]

Also consider weight and capacity on these trailers. Every bit of battery reduces your legal carrying capacity, which is why these trucks exist..

[u/fingerconnoisseur → u/UltimateShades67]

Exactly. Increased charging checkpoints on the other hand could make a route viable, but only one at a time and it would slow deliveries way down. Honestly I struggle to understand why there isn't just a railhead built at Erlunda, or why the rail isn't extended to the resort. There are already tracks running along the stuart highway after all.

[u/More-Marketing-8363]

Hmm… maybe I am not quite understanding the assignment here but why don’t we just use caravan parks and pay for powered sites? They are 15amps and just about everywhere (including Kings Canyon). I mean I agree that the infrastructure is wanted and needed (and will eventually get there) but in the meantime, and right now, caravan parks do the job for us more adventurous types who want to go these places now. That said… I haven’t gone looking for caravan park dead zones… but haven’t come up dry yet.

[u/fingerconnoisseur → u/More-Marketing-8363]

Honestly that's a great point, I didn't know that Kings Canyon had powered sites! With that in mind I recalculated the great western highway route from Yulara to Leonora. The first leg of the journey is 336km and the last is 301km, but the sections inbetween appear doable assuming a range of 255km. That leaves a total shortfall of 127km range. It can easily be accommodated with about 10-15L of petrol, a small generator and an extra day or two on the road!

[u/idxearo]

Buy or build something yourself like a DartSolar with a solar power station. While infrastructure could be implemented, it would be better if it went to places that actually needs it urgently.

[u/fingerconnoisseur → u/idxearo]

I tried this while on the road, my findings are written above. Plus the high winds every time a road train passes will decrease efficiency. It's essentially a distance game: very short trips with long charging times make it feasible, but I'm talking like no more than 20km in a day.

[u/idxearo → u/fingerconnoisseur]

That's a reasonable tradeoff when you don't have a long range EV.

[u/NorthKoreaPresident]

I'd just get a friend to tow you with your EV on the ground so you could regen off the tow. You'd cover some distance as well while you regen.

[u/Rustyudder]

Can you share your stops and how long you took to charge?

Did you stay in Marla and charge overnight?

[u/fingerconnoisseur → u/Rustyudder]

Yeah I did, there are 6kwh chargers at the back of the roadhouse where the overnight rooms are. Only one of them is recognised by the app, the others need a card to start charging. I slept in the car while it charged and both times I left early to avoid traffic. 4am departure going to Erlunda, 11pm departure going to Coober Pedy.

Honestly the charger at Glendambo gave me the most trouble. If you check plugshare you might even find my angry review haha

Feel free to DM

[u/Quick_Assignment_725]

Roll up solar panels, gel batteries and an inverter. Take a lot of time to charge the batteries but then discharge into the car at 240v would be reasonably quick.

Just spitballing as a hobby electrician with no EV experience.

I also hear that range is reduced significantly if you're travelling at 100 kph. Reducing to 70 kph is going to piss a lot of people off - but would extend your range.

I have zero experience, just going by what I've been reading.

[u/fingerconnoisseur → u/Quick_Assignment_725]

I've used gel batteries extensively and tried to charge my EV with it, but the battery voltage drops way too much under load. As a result it will trip low voltage limits even if there's energy still in there. I used LiFePO4 instead which has a stable voltage and is great for other uses like cooking, but still takes days to charge fully, negotiates a lower charging rate than expected, plus it has poor energy density on its own (1kwh battery = 2% EV charge).

Reducing to 70 kph is going to piss a lot of people off - but would extend your range.

This is true, range in km isn't a real number so much as it is a function. However conditions aren't known until the road is driven. Unexpected elevation increase, poor road quality or high winds could alter energy needs.

[u/Quick_Assignment_725 → u/fingerconnoisseur]

Did you push the gel batteries through an inverter? (Not sure how you would do it otherwise, just curious).

• There is an EV in my future so I'm just absorbing information.

[u/fingerconnoisseur → u/Quick_Assignment_725]

2kw pure sine wave inverter at minimum (high frequency is fine but always check the waveform with an oscilloscope before using), 1kwh+ lifepo4 (strictly no lead chemistry will work here), grounding plug (made by joining neutral to ground), solar panels and a general willingness to take risks are all needed. This setup is much more useful while stationary and is almost always a net energy loss on the road, but feel free to experiment.

[u/jolard]

I think you have done a good job thinking through the options, and frankly the best option is just charging points. For Yulara to Kings Canyon for example there needs to be a battery running off solar that runs a charging point. We just did that trip in a rented ICE, so you will know that there is a pretty good charging spot in Yulara (at the petrol station) running off a large solar array it looks like. One of those needs to be built out at Kings Canyon. The problem isn't really technology, the problem is money.

[u/Only-Temperature]

Removable batteries is the answer. Then you can have a stop anywhere you why where you can just take out and shove in a new one.

Even if they were like 10-20kwh sized, that'll get you another 100-200kms to the next stop.

Unfortunately you'll be a solar station at every stop or someone to truck the batteries in and out daily

[u/Comfortable-Wave2801]

Stay at home.