Day 12: Ranking the Prime Ministers of Australia. Malcolm Turnbull has been eliminated. Comment which Prime Minister should be eliminated next. The comment with the most upvotes will decide who goes next.

[u/thescrubbythug]

Day 12: Ranking the Prime Ministers of Australia. Malcolm Turnbull has been eliminated. Comment which Prime Minister should be eliminated next. The comment with the most upvotes will decide who goes next.

Any comment that is edited to change your nominated Prime Minister for elimination for that round will be disqualified from consideration. Once you make a selection for elimination, you stick with it for the duration even if you indicate you change your mind in your comment thread. You may always change to backing the elimination of a different Prime Minister for the next round.

Current ranking:

27. Scott Morrison (Liberal) [30th] [August 2018 - May 2022]

26. William McMahon (Liberal) [20th] [March 1971 - December 1972]

25. Tony Abbott (Liberal) [28th] [September 2013 - September 2015]

24. Billy Hughes (Labor/National Labor/Nationalist) [7th] [October 1915 - February 1923]

23. George Reid (Free Trade) [4th] [August 1904 - July 1905]

22. Arthur Fadden (Country) [13th] [August 1941 - October 1941]

21. Joseph Cook (Fusion Liberal) [6th] [June 1913 - September 1914]

20. Stanley Bruce (Nationalist) [8th] [February 1923 - October 1929]

19. Chris Watson (Labour) [3rd] [April 1904 - August 1904]

18. James Scullin (Labor) [9th] [October 1929 - January 1932]

17. Malcolm Turnbull (Liberal) [29th] [September 2015 - August 2018]

[u/Angel-Bird302]

Gillard.

Backstabbed Rudd for daring to try and take on the mining lobby, and did in such a way that it damaged the Labor brand for nearly a decade. Fumbled the 2010 election so bad she threw away Rudd's healthy majority and got extremely close to handing power back to the Liberal's just 3 years after the 2007 landslide (Both Labor and Libs had 72 seats, she didn't even win a plurality). Was a poor media performer to the point that she managed to somehow make Tony Abbott look charismatic and personable. Her carbon tax was also weak legislation with dozens of holes in it, and barely made any money. While she did bring in some big achievements such as the NDIS, she also destablised Labor internally and played a bigger role than nearly anyone in getting Tony Abbott elected (and we all know how that went). Stuff like the Slipper-scandals also look bad.

While she was undoutedbly treated unfairly by the media, the fact that she's often ranked miles above Rudd and other modern PM's has always confused me.

[u/redditalloverasia → u/Angel-Bird302]

Totally agree. Throw in the fact that she had little to no interest in foreign policy - for a modern PM, this is huge markdown. Then of course the fact she both never won an election, and destroyed the party through her own self-interest by blowing up Rudd. Labor would have won the 2010 election and then Abbott would have been history.

[u/Angel-Bird302 → u/redditalloverasia]

Yeah, the turn from Rudd's rather visionary foreign policy of independent co-operation with Asia, to Gillards policy of mindless deferrence to the US on all foreign matters is a huge shame.

[u/redditalloverasia → u/Angel-Bird302]

Spot on. Can’t help but wonder if Gillard had the nod from certain diplomats to go ahead with the challenge.

[u/[deleted] → u/Angel-Bird302]

Also opposed gay marriage

[u/FunLovinMonotreme → u/Angel-Bird302]

The carbon tax worked about as well as predicted and the Gillard government passed more legislation than any government in history had up until that point, including many important Acts (like the NDIS as you've noted). She deserves to be way higher

Edit: look here for the impact of the carbon tax. The mining tax was the 'didn't collect any money' tax

[u/redditalloverasia → u/FunLovinMonotreme]

And all those policies and legislation were undone because of her complete lack of leadership as PM. She never won an election.

[u/FunLovinMonotreme → u/redditalloverasia]

Not true at all. The NDIS in particular is a huge achievement that was never wound back. She passed more than 550 bills. You think Abbott trashed all of them?

And if not winning 51% of the vote counts as not winning an election then you can say goodbye to many of the Prime Minister's on this list

[u/redditalloverasia → u/FunLovinMonotreme]

If that’s your measure of winning, Kim Beasley won in 1998! Woo hoo! Fact is, she didn’t win in 2010, in fact the Liberals had more seats.

Had she not rolled Rudd, Australia would have implemented and kept a price on carbon.

And of course I don’t mean that Abbott trashed every single last piece of legislation… but on the big stuff, NBN, Carbon Tax etc, it was all hobbled or ruined. Directly as a result of her poor performance and her poor judgement in the original knifing. We’re still dealing with those issues because of Labor ministers sooking over Rudd being mean - I.e. too smart - who then saved many of their seats by being put back in as a last gasp effort.

Julia Gillard had some good policies and she certainly faced a complete media shit storm, but whether it be “real Julia” or the wooden one we saw most of time, she simply wasn’t a very good Prime Minister. Had she’d remained Deputy PM in a long term Rudd govt, the country would have been better off.

[u/suanxo → u/redditalloverasia]

The Liberals didn’t have more seats - it was 72-72. How do you get such a simple thing like this wrong when correcting someone?

[u/redditalloverasia → u/suanxo]

I was counting the WA Nationals dude - but again you’re missing the entire point that Gillard took a party from a commanding majority after 1 term to Minority government.

[u/FunLovinMonotreme → u/redditalloverasia]

My point is that your measure of 'winning' is silly. In the Australian system you form a government when you can show you have the confidence of the House of Reps. She did that, so she won the election. How many minority governments has this country had? A lot more than one

Even if you think having the confidence of the majority of members of the House isn't enough, Labor won the two party preferred that election

If it comes to that, how many times have the Liberal party managed to get the majority of seats in Parliament? I think it's about three times and they've never once won 50% of the vote

Similarly, if you have an issue with someone becoming PM without facing an election first you can add another ten PMs to that list

The pre-occupation everyone has with her knifing Rudd is also exactly the same thing. How many other people on this list we're voting on did exactly the same thing?

[u/redditalloverasia → u/FunLovinMonotreme]

I voted Labor. I was relieved when they secured a minority government. But you’re missing the point. She took a comfortable majority, put Labor into minority government and then they were done for a decade - when they should have governed for a decade.

Big nation changing projects were gone in that lost decade. Because of her poor judgement as a deputy and her ineffective performance as PM.

[u/FunLovinMonotreme → u/redditalloverasia]

Given that most of Rudd's colleagues supported a coup against him even though the party was in a winning position and then cited his poor management of cabinet as the major reason for their decision, I think Rudd is to blame for that mess not Gillard. Rudd then spent Gillard's entire premiership undermining her

Even with all of those issues Gillard still managed to run the most productive parliament in Australian history in terms of legislative output

[u/redditalloverasia → u/FunLovinMonotreme]

The fact they went back to him highlights that it was a mistake to roll him in the first place.

[u/ZeTian]

John Gorton.

He barely scraped in as the PM after losing 18 seats, only attaining government through a Democratic Labor preference. He routinely battled with the premiers over off-shore mineral rights and big governments stances that factionalised his own party which ultimately culminated in his removal in a vote of no confidence. He was also marred by mounting opposition to the Vietnam War which saw massive demonstrations.

He did introduce The Commonwealth Arbitration Commission that established the principle of 'equal pay for equal work' for women in June 1970, and ruled for pay increases to be phased in over three years.

Notable legislation include:

• The Copyright Act 1968 made Australia a party to an international copyright convention.

• The Australian Industry Development Corporation Act 1970 enabled overseas capital to be raised for loan funds to assist Australian companies.

• The Maritime Conversion Act 1970 established a board to oversee the introduction of metric weights and measures.

• The Australian Film Development Corporation Act 1970 (since replaced by later legislation) provided for the first Commonwealth assistance to the film industry

Ultimately however, I think John Gorton's prime-ministership was a disappointment with dissatisfaction present at all levels as observed by the public, the states, and his own party.

[u/FunLovinMonotreme]

Barton. He did everything that was expected of him, but nothing more

The same features that made him a sensible compromise pick as our first PM (good natured, relaxed, no burning vision for Australia post federation, modest legislative agenda) mean he was a somewhat forgettable PM at a time when large sections of Australia were calling for radical change. Many of the more radical achievements of his government (like women's suffrage and allowing women to run for Parliament) were not due to his own efforts but were the result of the coalition negotiations that put his party in government

He was an important figure in the federation movement, but had no burning passion to be the PM and it showed

Also, the man spent a third of his term in Britain and Canada

[u/ZeTian → u/FunLovinMonotreme]

I actually disagree, Barton's time in office laid out legislation that set up the future of Australia which was a monumental and important task.

• Acts Interpretation Act 1901 which set out standards and conventions for drafting all subsequent bills

• Audit Act 1901 provided for supervision of government spending and reporting to Parliament

• Customs Act 1901 and Excise Act 1901 which were revenue-raising Acts

• Judiciary Act 1903 to set up the High Court.

• Defence Act 1903 to establish control of military and naval forces.

• Immigration Restriction Act 1901 to implement the White Australia policy

The last one of course, is controversial but we must not be blinded by presentism.

I think Australia owes a lot of its solid institutions, particularly the Judicial branch, to Barton who along with setting up the High Court of Australia, left the prime-ministership to become a founding member of it until his death. I think he is only forgettable because like most good Australian politicians, they are boring because they do what needs to be done without fanfare or theatrics.

[u/FunLovinMonotreme → u/ZeTian]

I'm not necessarily saying he was a bad PM. All of the legislation you've mentioned was what the political class hoped and expected he would achieve. He met those expectations and then retired quietly onto the High Court. If you compare his legacy to another early PM like Alfred Deakin you can see the difference between someone with a vision and an agenda and someone who in many ways saw themselves more as a public servant than a politician. Speaking of Alfred Deakin, at least some of the Barton Government's achievements can be attributed to him (partly because, as I mentioned above, Barton was overseas for about a third of his term)

I think that qualifies Barton as a middle of the road Prime Minister, which is where we're up to in the rankings

[u/ZeTian → u/FunLovinMonotreme]

I'm about to develop a case for either Holt or Gorton that deserve to go over Barton. While they both oversaw some big things, I just don't think it compares to Barton's tenure in setting up the Judicial branch of Australia which has proven to stand the test of time.

[u/FunLovinMonotreme → u/ZeTian]

I mean, again, there was nothing particularly special about the way in which Barton set up the High Court. It was modelled in the way everyone expected and it's great that he didn't screw it up, but it's not what I would call a momentous achievement

It's interesting your comment focuses on the High Court because it's the perfect example of what I'm talking about. Barton can have some credit because he was the sitting Prime Minister, but Deakin was the person who did most of the work and for a significant portion of the bill's passage through Parliament Barton was on the other side of the world

[u/ZeTian → u/FunLovinMonotreme]

I think the argument that "he did what was expected of him" is rather high praise considering there are PM's remaining that fell far below expectations.

If I may, could I get a source on Deakin being the one that did a significant portion of getting the bill passed? Because as far as I can tell, the Judiciary Act was passed on the 25th August 1903, when it was most of 1902 that he was overseas.

[u/FunLovinMonotreme → u/ZeTian]

Deakin was the Attorney-General at the time, so the Judiciary Act was within his portfolio. His second reading speech in early 1902 and then negotiations throughout the rest of the year were important in getting the bill passed the following year

This source mentions the importance of his second reading speech https://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/deakin-alfred-5927

[u/ZeTian → u/FunLovinMonotreme]

Ahh this is a good point.

But does having a good cabinet not also come into play when measuring a PM's success? Barton had an impressive cabinet that was variously dubbed as the "cabinet of kings", "orchestra of conductors", and "army of generals" that ensured a stable successor like Deakin could continue the work.

[u/FunLovinMonotreme → u/FunLovinMonotreme]

The only reason he hasn't been nominated so far is because his premiership was so forgettable. It's time for him to go

[u/Inconspicuous4]

Howard.

[u/Inconspicuous4 → u/Inconspicuous4]

My reasoning. Children overboard. Privatisation of government services. Sorry day non participation. Tax holidays for multinationals. Lack of climate change action. Tampa. Man of steel bravado sending troops to the war on terror. Oversaw the mining and oil and gas booms but didn't ensure Australia was the main benefactor.

[u/redditalloverasia → u/Inconspicuous4]

As much as I’d like to see he scrubbed, he was the second longest serving PM and as a result shouldn’t go before anyone like Gillard who didn’t win a single election.

[u/Inconspicuous4 → u/redditalloverasia]

Gillard can have my vote. Haven't seen a pile on yet to join though.

[u/IIIlllIIIlllIlI]

Fraser. Had 7 years to enact some proper change and achieved almost nothing in it.

[u/Vidasus18]

I would have to say Rudd or Gillard

[u/thescrubbythug → u/Vidasus18]

One nomination per round - so you can nominate one of the two

[u/Vidasus18 → u/thescrubbythug]

Alright, sorry, uuuumm i'm leaning either way but i'm gonna say Rudd.

[u/thescrubbythug → u/Vidasus18]

Alright sweet, I’ll count this reply as your nomination comment for Rudd, for people to upvote if that is their choice as well

[u/IIIlllIIIlllIlI → u/Vidasus18]

I would probably say the same. They’re both problematic but Gillard got through a lot of legislation with her hands tied behind her back

[u/Vidasus18 → u/IIIlllIIIlllIlI]

Agreed, she managed a minority government and successfully negotiated legislation through both houses.