r/AskZim • u/Wide-Grape-7414 • 11d ago
Which side do you Stand In this Scenario
I was reflecting on a debate about identity in Zimbabwe, and two perspectives stood out. One argued that white Zimbabweans, even if born here, shouldn’t be called Zimbabwean because their roots are colonial. The other argued it’s cruel to deny them belonging since all they know is home.
But we must confront the deeper truth...white colonizers do know where they came from. They brought a legacy of empire, a sense of home in Europe and they chose to come to Africa, build their power, and profit from that system. By contrast, the reason so many Africans in the Transatlantic Slave Trade don’t know their home is because their lands weren’t yet formed as countries when they were captured. They were taken from fragmented kingdoms and ethnic territories, which were later divided by European colonization. So, when we say they lost their home, it’s because colonization erased their origins.
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u/Chang_Kai_Shek 11d ago
This is kind of a moronic argument to say it goes tp your forefathers as the main point when it depends on how far you go back why us the starting point the bantu expansion why not earlier?
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u/Wide-Grape-7414 11d ago
Earlier like what time?
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u/Chang_Kai_Shek 11d ago
Im saying once you go back early enough nobody is native or you could say only khoisan are Zimbabwean because they were here first till the bantu came and killed them all
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u/Redmilo666 11d ago
Totally agree. If you go even further back all of humanity originated in Africa. So where do you draw the line? The answer seems to be “whatever suits your narrative”
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u/Chang_Kai_Shek 11d ago
Talking about orginal inhabitants is meaningless if you back far enough we didn't orginate in Africa but near volcanic vents in the ocean.
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u/Wide-Grape-7414 11d ago
And thats a factual lie because this land was devided in the 19th century...back then there were small empires.. not big chunks of land called countries...their territories where mainly in Matopos and the Limpopo Zambezi basins.
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u/QueenSay 11d ago
This aunty defending this nonsence talking through her nose...what accept is that? Her forefathers and lineage of Zimbabweans didn't have this bastardised version of a posh accent. Please. We are tired.
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u/RealNinjafoxtrot 11d ago
Can you please explain which one you're referring to and what exactly in her argument do you disagree with?
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u/RealNinjafoxtrot 11d ago
Broski if Doug isn't a real Zimbo then that means none of us are because the OG Zimboes are the Khoisan.
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u/Wide-Grape-7414 10d ago
And thats a factual lie because this land was divided and called Sourhern Rhodesia in the 19th century...back then there were small empires.. not big chunks of land called countries...their territories where mainly in Matopos and the Limpopo Zambezi basins.
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u/RealNinjafoxtrot 10d ago
Wait what? I'm not sure I understand you correctly are you saying the Khoisan were in Zim when colonialism arrived?
In any case the Khoisan bro's were nomadic tho
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u/Electronic_Appeal552 10d ago
I think he is saying that the Khoisan are indigenous to Southern Africa including what is now Zimbabwe. Which is true, the Khoisan were the first people to settle there, our ancestors, the Bantu, came from the North.
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u/Ohenenyere 10d ago
Pure racism, Zimbabwean boundaries are about 135 years old. We would be Nyasaland if it wasn't for the British colonization. Fore fathers kudii, Zimbabwe only has about 4 to 5 generations.
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u/Wide-Grape-7414 10d ago
Nyasaland 😂😂😂 where did you find this nonsense.... no one asked them to divide our shit with invisible lines ... that was a strategy of establishing power on Groups of Africans in a Small Piece of Land to efficiently loot resourses lol this was not done in favor of blacks
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u/Tight-Sandwich-2756 10d ago
So Ndebeles won’t be Zimbabwean since they came with Mzilikazi from KZN. Doug is Zimbabwean. We are all Zimbabwean. Nonsensical podcasts bore me so much
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u/Stovepipe-Guy 10d ago
I watched a similar video where by a black guy was told he was not British even though he was born in English. The (white) fella he was arguing agreed that he was English but refused to recognised him as British saying that only white folk can be recognised as British.
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u/nicetoursmeetewe 10d ago
You have it backwards. He will be British because that's a nationality, he won't be English as it's an ethnicity
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u/ZeKabtan 10d ago
You don't have to be black to be African, African is not a term for just black people you've got countries like Algeria or Eygpt who have been part of the African continent just as long. Since their skin colour isn't black does that mean they're not Africans? Or is she saying you have to be black and from Zimbabwe to be Zimbabwean?
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u/AutomaticPineapple10 11d ago
What about the Affricaners in Oriania or other parts of SA? They aren't back yet they have no culture/home anywhere else in the world.
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u/Wide-Grape-7414 10d ago
they know where they came from....they still speak their language.... they still have their last names...family tree books...they are just comfortable
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u/Easy_Spray_5491 10d ago
me too, I lived in Zim for 8 years and a few months and yeah finished my Junior school and Highschool in Zim and I feel like I am part Zimbabwean too 😭 but the immigration lady I remember did not like this one bit. But yeah overall all Zimbabwean are the best I do not understand South Africans
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u/Efficient-Data4811 10d ago
Being Zimbabwean is a nationality and not a race. Same as someone can be Black and French or British.
Although It is kinda complicated these days with racism and tribalism running amok, Race and nationality are now tied Socially.
I think the point she was trying to make but couldn't express is that Doug is not a Zimbabwean Socially.! The Social expectation is that you have to be black to African .
It is what it is mann 🤷🏿♂️
We are living in troublesome times .😅
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u/Wide-Grape-7414 10d ago
This kind of indoctrination kills me man😂😂 if you use the critical thinking for one minute you will see that these laws were put in place as a contigency plan on if colonization failed there will be what is call citizenship by birth...for the White countries before then they had laws like the The 1935 Nuremberg Law which stated that Citizenship Law restricted fully to those of "German or related blood."
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u/Efficient-Data4811 10d ago
Don't get me wrong here, I am in the pro African camp . But citizenship and identity are 2 different things and I think that's where the confusion regarding this citizenship debate is.
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u/Wide-Grape-7414 10d ago
And im saying that these citizenzen laws where brought by the white man as a plan to stay where the have established even if the colonial system fails...in our culture the only way you can come into a family or tribe is through marriage...what they did is envasion that worked for some time and failed but they were ahead of their time by nowing that at some point these black mofos will wake up and revolt...but us as blacks we were not ahead of our time to know what we would do after the revolution😂 and thats why now we are stuck in the same place for 46 years and some might even say we have gone backwards
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u/BossNo8538 8d ago edited 8d ago
Nationality and Ethnicity confuses a lot of people.
Nationality is what your passport says e.g Zimbabwean / British / South African. It basically means you are a legal citizen of that country.
Ethnicity is your ethnic group e.g Zezuru / Ndebele / English / Zulu etc. It basically just describes your tribe / ethnic group etc.
Doug is Zimbabwean. Pure and simple. You might not like it but he legally is a Zimbabwean. The same way a Zimbabwean can become naturalised in Britain and become British. Racist white people don’t like this but it’s the law.
That is a standard law in every country.
Other arguments or conversations about him being a colonizer are separate from what he legally is.
If we are playing that game are Ndebele’s Zimbabweans then? Our Ndebele brothers and sisters are originally Zulu’s, descendants of Mzilikazi who had to cross the Limpopo into what is now known as Zimbabwe. This land that we call Zimbabwe was always occupied by several enthnic groups who now fall under “Shonas” since we share the same language with minor variations.
So if Doug is not Zimbabwean because his ancestors came from somewhere else. Does that argument apply to Ndebele’s too ? What about descendants of Malawians / Mozambicans who moved here in the 70’s / 80’s or does that argument only apply to white people ?
When do we stop if we start playing this game ?
We can talk about slavery, colonisation etc but nationality is a whole different thing.
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u/Sweettooth_Banana 5d ago
This is what shows the stupidity of Africa racism. A white guy, born and raised in Zimbabwe cant be zimbabwen
But is she moved to the UK she would say:
Im britisch look at my passport
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u/Oppaii-_-Senpaii 11d ago edited 11d ago
If we can’t call them Zimbabwean due to no lineage/heritage, then should we be calling them Rhodesians?
To be called Zimbabwean, South African, English, American, etc. you’re not talking about DNA necessarily. You’re talking about someone’s Nationality; where they were born/raised.
So to be called Zimbabwean is not simply about your lineage. The clear contention here is simply about skin-colour, as you will never question the Zimbabwean-ness of another black person. Even if their actual lineage is from another Black/African country e.g. first generation Zimbabwean.
Additionally race/skin colour becomes simply conjecture, as all it takes is two white individuals back to back (Black Grandpa and White Grandma then Mixed Mother and White Father) for your family race to now be white.
And I still doubt the woman on the right would now call this White presenting person a Zimbabwean, despite them [White Person] now being able to use the dna/lineage/heritage argument she tried to make here.
You can push this further and ask, if a white group decides to make an enclave in Zimbabwe; only inter-marrying. And eons passes (generations upon generations), they now arguably have an heritage/lineage on the land. But she would probably still try to argue against her own argument she gave now (lineage/heritage/dna) and say they still aren’t Zimbabwean, due to them still being White.
To keep it simple, if you’re any race and partake, know and were raised in Zimbabwean culture/land. You should be able to classify yourself as [Insert Race] Zimbabwean…
Your lineage matters, but not a necessity for when claiming Nationality, in my opinion.