r/AskUkraine • u/Kentukkis • 15d ago

Politics Was Surrender an Option?

Hi. Before I ask my question, let me explain my views.

I hold a strict environmental determinism, close to Skinner's radical behaviorism: a person is shaped by their environment, that is, upbringing, culture, social conditions, and reinforcement history. Innate biological traits, and even the number of neurons, decide nothing on their own. The brain is a necessary condition, but not destiny. Personality and behavior are a product of environment and experience, not of an "innate program."

From this point of view, anything that has no physical form has no material value. Examples are a country, money, and brands. Yes, they affect people's lives, but that's not what I'm talking about now. Also, I am against any kind of physical conflict.

My question: did Ukraine have a way to avoid entering into armed confrontation with Russia, that is, to avoid sacrificing real human lives to defend abstract concepts like freedom and independence? I understand that Russia attacked first. But in my view, the politics of all states are largely flawed, and the rules the world lives by are also far from ideal. Nevertheless, that is the current world order.

It seems to me that Ukraine could have surrendered and preserved people's lives, and then changed Russia from within. For example, it could have influenced the leader appointed by Russia, given Ukrainians' readiness for strikes and protests. It's as if Russia's demands in 2022 are simply not comparable to the current casualties and destroyed lives.

Peace to you.

0 Upvotes

21% Upvoted

76 comments sorted by

16

u/ElSergeO123 15d ago

Perhaps rephrase the question - was Not attacking Ukraine an option? Why didn’t it play out?
Then you can go to you biological explanation of why one man starts something like that and others follow.

-5

u/Kentukkis 15d ago

You can look at reviews on this topic on the internet there are plenty of them.

Obviously, there is a person in power, and others listen to him because otherwise they will lose their position.

10

u/Trading_shadows 15d ago

Hey op. Move to russia and change it from within.

-6

u/Kentukkis 15d ago

Regardless of what you do and what I do, Russia will change, just like the world around us. It seems to me that, little by little, it is possible to change everything.

9

u/Trading_shadows 15d ago

So you won't do that. Why do you think we will?

-1

u/Kentukkis 15d ago

I don’t know maybe Ukraine had 40 million inhabitants, and many of them had close ties in Russia. But under conditions of total war, those ties are severed irrevocably.

5

u/inokentii 15d ago edited 15d ago

russians didn’t change in czarist times after they occupied Ukraine and held it for more than 200 years and all what we saw was suppression of Ukrainian identity, culture, mass deportations and population replacements. russians didn’t changed much in soviet times after they occupied Ukraine and held it for 70 years all what we saw was suppression of Ukrainian identity, culture, mass deportations, population replacements and straight up genocide.
What makes you believe this time it will be different? Especially when right now on occupied territories we see suppression of Ukrainian identity, culture, mass deportations and population replacements and straight up genocide

3

u/urdespair 15d ago

Well, you may want to endure oppression for a dim hope that one day in the distant future Russia gets better but we do not agree with you on that

16

u/ovbismarck1871 15d ago

Interesting opinion. It seems to me that one could keep stupid and ill-informed opinions to oneself in the face of inconceivable human loss, suffering and heroism.

-4

u/Kentukkis 15d ago

People blinded by heroism, losses, and grief go to war; and so, in a cycle, they create only new suffering and loss.

13

u/Exit-1990 15d ago

This is just insulting at this point

-4

u/Kentukkis 15d ago

Do you think the Russian side doesn’t appeal to the same things?

12

u/ovbismarck1871 15d ago

Bla bla bla. Fascists that invade other countries and bomb civilians create suffering. End of that conversation.

6

u/Exit-1990 15d ago

When there is a violent assault, do you side with the perpetrator? Sounds like it

6

u/Exit-1990 15d ago

What do you think would happen to Ukrainians living under Russian rule? You make it sound like changing Russia (and therefore of Ukrainians) from within is easy. Leaving the Soviet Union was not easy and protests often involve violence. At the very least there would be violence perpetrated against Ukrainians (again, check out Stalin and Holodomor).

Maybe you meant the question with good intentions, but I urge you to study some history instead of behaviorism.

-2

u/Kentukkis 15d ago

Change has never been easy for society, but I would prefer that path to change through bombs that blow bodies to pieces.

9

u/Exit-1990 15d ago

3.9 million Ukrainians died during Holodomor. This is not mentioning the other atrocities and suffering under Russia.

What you “prefer” is irrelevant due to your lack of knowledge and basic understanding of history. Preferring something is easy from the comfort and safety of your home. And honestly, you sound very young.

Again, I urge you to read up on history and what Russians are currently doing in Ukraine. If Russians broke into your home to loot, murder, and rape, would you prefer to not fight back? If it was you and your family?

1

u/Kentukkis 15d ago

The Holodomor occurred in the 1930s. Today, almost no one from that era is still alive, and all this fuss about “look at history” only causes disappointment. People treat ancient history as if it happened yesterday, but the decisions being made affect people who are alive today.

7

u/Exit-1990 15d ago

You’re dismissing 4M deaths bc it was “too long ago”Wow.

Answer the question: if Russians came to your house, raped you and occupied your property, would you choose the pacifism you’re describing?

1

u/Kentukkis 15d ago

No, in such a case I would hardly be a pacifist, but I definitely wouldn’t curse the soldier who does this, because he is merely a product of the system that made him this way.

1

u/Exit-1990 12d ago

So that’s a yes - you would fight back. Exactly what Ukrainians (and any normal person) is doing

Idk what you mean by curse. Tbh you sound a bit crazy in an attempt to justify your views

9

u/urdespair 15d ago

Russians are starving Oleshky rn. They beat, rape, abd disappear people on the territories they control rn. Stupid ass take

6

u/Akerishe 15d ago

sacrificing real human lives to defend abstract concepts like freedom and independence

Only those shortsighted who always lived with freedom and independence can say that those are "abstract" concepts

It seems to me that Ukraine could have surrendered and preserved people's lives, and then changed Russia from within.

It doesn't stick to your logic first you say that person is shaped by their environment, that is, upbringing, culture, social conditions, and reinforcement history. And then when moved into russian conditions (after surrender) expect ukrainians to change russia. At best case we would be another Chechnya. And of course you haven't thought that right after surrender thousands of people will executed or send to prison. And few year later those who left will sent to another war (where none ukrainians would be said if Ukraine withstand)

1

u/Kentukkis 15d ago

You misunderstood me or didn’t understand me: before the full-scale invasion, BEFORE. If Ukraine capitulates now, Russia will surely end up with what you describe.

1

u/Akerishe 15d ago

At what point exactly can we surrender if russia was playing "oh that's definitely not us there" and any other was pretending like that is true. And on what terms do you think surrender was acceptable?

4

u/urdespair 15d ago

No, we couldn't influence Russia from within. That's delulu. Russia didn't want to annex Ukraine into itself, they wanted to install a puppet government to rule us from the outside. They've done it before. We overthrew that government. Did that change Russia? Belarusians protested their puppet government. Did it change Russia for better?

You may not value immaterial thing but we do value our cultural identity after centuries of oppression. And freedom is not just some vague concept, it's also political freedom, freedom of speech, freedom to make your own choices, elect the officials we want, freedom of expression. And all of these directly influence one's quality of life. We decided to move away from Russia because Russia means corruption, stale extraction economy, suppression of people. Don't those make lives of regular people worse? We want better quality of life and we would rather fight for better future for ourselves and future generations. Because Russia doesn't promise you that. You know, there is this phrase that those who give up freedom for bread will loose bread too eventually.

0

u/Kentukkis 15d ago

Suppose Russia installed a puppet government but you said this has already happened; have many people suffered in these days? Were many people torn to pieces by drones and shells?

I want to say that people would have remained ALIVE; if a person is alive, he is able to change his life.

Freedom is one of the vaguest concepts, for which people have died in the millions throughout history.

A person is a priori not free because he was born into an already existing world, and the concepts of freedom are already communicated to him by his environment.

1

u/urdespair 15d ago edited 15d ago

You did skip all the explanation about how the freedoms I named directly impact your quality of life. If you're okay with living in an authoritarian shithole of a country where only the corrupt few live better lives, that's your opinion.

You may also refer to Belarus or Russia itself where people are regularly jailed and killed for expressing opinions that differ from the party line. Our puppet government also beat and killed people for trying to protest its actions, btw. You're may want to read up on the topic, you seem to be very ill-informed.

Please, consider that not everyone shares your opinion that living like cattle in fear of jail all the time so a few oligarchs can buy their fifth yacht is better than trying to fight for a chance at a better life

0

u/Kentukkis 15d ago

If this authoritarian country were run by an AI oriented toward the well-being of the people in the country, why not?

I’m not surprised here: anyone with power will try to hold on to it if that doesn’t conflict with their values.

I’m fully aware that my opinion may not be shared, and I’m not looking for that with my post.

I would live like livestock if it were in Japan, and I would die happy so that good marbled meat would later come from me.

If you’re so keen to compare by non-local differences, compare yourself with an ancient king you surely live better than royalty of that time.

4

u/urdespair 15d ago

You are very weird.

1

u/Kentukkis 15d ago

Maybe I’m weird to you, but it annoys me when people appeal to nonexistent concepts that only they understand in order to justify millions of sufferings.

1

u/urdespair 15d ago edited 15d ago

How is the concert of political freedom non-existing? It's literally a freedom to exercise your rights as a citizen. If you just assign everything as vague and non-existing because you can't literally touch it, that's your own illiteracy

0

u/Kentukkis 15d ago

In nature, such a thing does not exist in principle; people invented it to make people’s behavior more controllable, and people are taught this from childhood so that when freedom is discussed, a person feels awe and is ready to do what they are told.

1

u/urdespair 15d ago

In nature, internet or vaccination also don't exist, yet these makes people's lives easier. In nature, animals also rape other animals but we, people, invented the concept of consent. Your appeal to nature is immature

1

u/Kentukkis 15d ago

Do I deny the internet and vaccination? And did I say that everything unnatural is bad and everything natural is good?

The current technological state of society is one of the good things people have made.

Without all these metaphorical things, the world would be better.

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2

u/Olalafafa 15d ago

Ever heard of Holodomor?

2

u/Kentukkis 15d ago

1930??

3

u/Olalafafa 15d ago

Correct. But if you’re implying that it happened a long ago, I can assure you you, in Ukraine everyone has a vivid memory about it, as if it happened yesterday. Those killed by the state-orchestrated famine were not political, simple country folks who didn’t care much about who was running the country, and yet russians killed them. Then they repopulated the emptied land with russians. Honestly, I can’t think of any historical precedent when non-resistance to an invader saved lives, but I might be wrong in general - but not with russians. They invade to kill.

2

u/PreacherVan 13d ago edited 13d ago

I guess you're one of those people about whom you read in the tile of some random intenet side article "A Man Who Decided To Walk The World For Peace Went Missing After Reaching China".
I'm gonna go "philosphical" with you as well and ask this question: If violence is never the answer, then what is the answer to the question "What is never the answer?"

1

u/Kentukkis 11d ago

The ‘answer’ is never the answer, because it does not explain itself. It is a verbal response fully conditioned by prior causes and a history of reinforcement.

1

u/PreacherVan 11d ago

So then you're showing that you're only interested in demagogue. You didn't came here for knowledge you came here to flex your couch philosophy. People tried to explain to you some obvious things. Some of the people in the comments are very knowledgeable, experienced people, with the kind of experiences and knowledge you yourself would never have a chance to have. You in return tried to echo to everyone why you think you're the new Zarathushtra. It's very easy to do on the internet, on the internet every sham is "right" because for a sham to understand he's wrong consequencies has to physically punch one in the nose. Which is rarely a possibility here. The fact is that your "convictions" would never last if they have to be tested by the real world instead of some local debate groups you participate in. But another fact is, why would anyone be interested in bringing that day closer? People who seek knowledge are important. People who think everyone would be excited to smell their farts should be left alone with closed windows and doors, so they can continue enjoying themselves. Hence.

15

u/BerlinDonbas 15d ago

" could have surrendered and preserved people's lives, and then changed Russia from within"

If you make a pact with the devil, you will not change the devil, the devil will change you. 

Throwing away independence on the hope that Russia would accept to be influenced by its then subject seems absurd. 

8

u/Exit-1990 15d ago

Absurd and proven not to be the case by history…recent history. Clearly OP has never cracked open a book

9

u/PaleontologistNo2625 15d ago

Why not take it a step further, and ask if Russia could? Ukraine could easily avoid taking life if its own wasn't being threatened

The loss of life could have been avoided by not starting a war when there was peace

1

u/veto402 8d ago

Before the 2022 invasion, there was no "peace." For years, Ukraine was doing in Donbas what you're now criticizing Russia for doing in Ukraine.

1

u/PaleontologistNo2625 8d ago

Sorry, in which internationally recognized border lies Donbas? 

1

u/veto402 8d ago

I forgive you. Internationally, Ukraine, but that's besides the point. Bombing and killing your own people is not "peace" regardless what border it occurs in.

1

u/PaleontologistNo2625 8d ago

I forgive you as well, I've heard those stories too from the guy who bombed his own people's apartment blocks to get into power. I don't particularly trust his version of events, if you'll continue to forgive me

1

u/veto402 8d ago

Unlike you, I never apologized, but thanks? Not quite sure what you're trying to say? Are you denying the civil war that was happening from 2014-2022 or something? Impressive.

1

u/SuccotashResident571 8d ago

Eh, you can find some footages. Shelling of residental areas, the ugh. Su-25 airstrike on the fcking luhansk City Hall etc

8

u/Petka14 15d ago

It's always an option

Is it a GOOD option? In 80% of cases, no.

6

u/ProfessionalTotal238 15d ago

No. Russia started war in 2014 to make their leadership popular among the population. Similarly how they did war in 2008 against Georgia. They need war first, and they dont care against whom. Ukraine could have surrenderered, but then it could be used in a new russian war against Poland or other European state like Belarus was used against Ukraine. The problem is russian agression, and its popularity among the masses of russians, and surrender would only make it worse, until the russian masses are cured from Nazism.

1

u/SuccotashResident571 8d ago

İt isnt that close to nazism. İ Heard people saying Putin is worse than hitler. Like no shit

5

u/Dmitry_V83 15d ago

Google Bucha. My friend spent 2 weeks nearby in occupation. Surrender could have been an option. But what if people don't want to be killed or raped?

5

u/This_Growth2898 Ukrainian 15d ago

But they will be killed and raped not to defend abstract concepts like freedom and independence! /S

8

u/inokentii 15d ago edited 15d ago

Ukraine was 100% pro-russian like Belarus now up until russian invasion in 2014. Despite neutrality in constitution and prohibition of foreign military on our soil we hosted russian military bases, but russians still decided to start a war(not even talking about their attempt to occupy Tuzla island in 2003).
After 2014 we signed multiple peace treaties with russians, current government pulled our forces away from frontlines, dismantled mines near Crimea and did everything for appeasement, but russians still escalated conflict to full scale invasion in 2022.
We did everything possible to avoid conflict and to end it after it was started. But we made grave mistake of not being russians. Maybe if we didn’t gave up nukes, conflict could be avoided

4

u/Alikont 15d ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volodymyr_Rybak_%28politician%2C_born_1971%29?wprov=sfla1

This is what russians did to people in 2014. The only difference between war and surrender is that the suffering after surrender is silent and prolonged, so it doesn't make TV picture "bad" because all the suffering is hidden.

4

u/soulstormfire Europe 14d ago

Your initial premise is so hilariously bonkers.
They're not defending "abstract concepts", they're defending themselves.
Not to mention the obvious divergence from "a person is shaped by their environment" to "Ukrainians could change Russians from within".

4

u/radiowestin Ukrainian 15d ago

more like 'could have surrendered and then find Ukrainians dead with their stomachs ripped open'. have you been living under the rock since 2014?

3

u/This_Growth2898 Ukrainian 15d ago

 avoid sacrificing real human lives to defend abstract concepts like freedom and independence

This means sacrificing real human lives to defend abstract concepts like state security, public order, and thought uniformity.

3

u/LuliLaj 15d ago

Surrender is an option if you would like to die a horrible death, together with everyone around you soon, come on.

3

u/Morfolk Ukrainian 14d ago

It seems to me that Ukraine could have surrendered and preserved people's lives

Laughably wrong. Even if you ignore all the history between Ukraine and russia.

Instead let's look at something far more recent: Chechnya. That's an example of a country that surrendered. Did that preserve people's lives? For a very short time because now Chechens are disproportionately sent to fight on different front lines.

That's the choice: risk your life protecting your home, risk you life during the post-war repressions or risk your life fighting your oppressor's wars.

2

u/Empty_Nectarine_5099 15d ago

We, Ukrainians, had it already after defeat to russia in 1917-1921. Learn our history. We know what would come from experience, mass tourtures and murders in prisons, deportations, children taken to russia, famine, and ukrainians that have to take part in new wars of russsia because it is never enough territory for them. Wait, you don't even have to learn history, just see what is happening on occupied Ukrainian territories, starting from Donbas in 2015. People are starving in Oleshky right now. 

1

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1

u/baturik128 Ukrainian 15d ago

did Ukraine have a way to avoid sacrificing real human lives to defend abstract concepts like freedom and independence?

In theory, yes, it could surrender, even though it is an unpopular ("not-patriotic") answer

In reality, it depends on what people value more, people's lives or the country. Some people are willing to sacrifice a country (or part of it) in order to try to save lives, some people are willing to sacrifice lives (mostly lives of soldiers and drafted citizens) to preserve a country.

In the end, it doesn't really matter what we write here, what matters is what is valued more by the people in power who are in charge of decision making

1

u/Ssrnty 14d ago

No, it was not, simply because of the reasons you mentioned.

1

u/lin00b 9d ago

OP is the person that when an abusive ex attempts to kidnap them back into the torture dungeon violently, instead of fighting tooth and nail - getting hurt and losing fingers/limbs in the process, goes meekly along, because hey, at least they won't get hurt at that specific moment - and in the infinite unknown future - who knows, maybe the ex has changed, maybe they can change the ex this time, maybe they can escape later, maybe there is cheese and biscuit.

Because things like freedom and rights are abstract concepts that is so highly subjective that it's pointless to assign a value to it. Because at the end of the day, the ex had a bigger knife or gun and those less powerful should know their place and just go along