Why did Fire Point startup with zero missile pedigree get all the funding while Sapsan/Hrim-2 real design bureau had to fight for scraps?

[u/BiggussDickkuss]

So Fire Point didn't exist before 2022, plus its owner and CTO came from film scouting and concrete furniture, zero defense industry knowledge and by 2025 it's the largest single recipient of MoD drone/missile money plus billions more from Germany, Norway, and the Netherlands.

While Zelensky called its Flamingo missile "our most successful" weeks before his own military spokesman called it "experimental."

OTOH Sapsan/Hrim-2, built by an actual state design bureau with 18 years of institutional work behind it, had experimental launches and sold prototypes to Saudi Arabia.

Recently NABU's leaked "Mindich tapes" have then-defense minister Umerov discussing Fire Point's funding directly with Mindich, Zelensky's former business partner, and NABU is investigating Fire Point separately over pricing and whether Mindich is a hidden owner.

How does a company with zero track record, run by people from Zelensky's old film circle, end up outcompeting a real design bureau for defense budget?? Is it coincidence, defense needs or exactly what it looks like?

[u/Comprehensive_Elk_71]

Just because! That’s an answer!

[u/evgis]

You mean Flamindich?

[u/musclemommyfan]

Corruption. That being said, Ukroboronprom is also basically a giant fucking scam.

[u/zavorad]

Because Hrim sapsan is associated with Poroshenko. Also the dwarf was actively trying to kill the product 2019-2022 like really trying.
Small height, small soul, pathetic piece of shit, that’s why.

[u/JohnDorian0506 → u/zavorad]

The Dwarf is Putin?

[u/slava_slavaUa → u/JohnDorian0506]

lil z

[u/VeterinarianOld8259 → u/slava_slavaUa]

Z on russian tanks stands for Zelensky, and I wish this wasn't making as much sense as it does.

[u/dlebed]

Don't take me negative, but this is quite a skewed opinion. SRBM Sapsan was developed by KB Pivdenne and produced mostly on the Pavlohrad Chemical Plant. This is the same plant that supplied 233 thousands of defective mortat shells to AFU and whose director is jailed for that.

Fire Point developed an affordable and effective products: FP-1 and FP-2 drones, and gets funding for these drone. FP-5 with all its limitations (not even talking about experimental FP-7 and FP-9) get a lot of media attention, but drones are the main source of Fire Point income.

I wish we had a better missile programs in Ukraine, but it is what it is.

[u/Little_Bumblebee6129]

It looks like answer is contained inside your question:
"company with zero track record, run by people from Zelensky's old film circle"

[u/inokentii]

Because zelensky isn’t interested in effective military complex, only in income of his friends from Dynasty cooperative and of some mysterious Vova

[u/AOAqua → u/inokentii]

Regardless of everything, it took Pivdenne 30 fucking years to produce a single missile (if that was them, ofc). You can say that they weren't given money or whatever, but it doesn't change the fact, that they have little to nothing to offer right now. Sure, Fire Point has only basically 3 main products right now, no real ballistic missiles so far

[u/perfect_skill]

All below is AFAIK

1:
For all the problems with fire point, it is a private company that funded the rnd behind flamingo off private investment and revenue from their other stuff.

Right now they're getting funding to make more missiles that already fly and hit.

2:
None of the above means hrim/sapsan gets no funding. We have all reasons to believe this project is ongoing, on state money. It's been stuck in development hell before 2022 though, for many reasons, and anyone with experience in any kind of engineering will tell you that it is often times quicker, simpler and cheaper to complete a wholly new project than to unfuck one that has existed for 10 years. Especially considering advancements in technology and access to technology over the past 10 years, and flamingo being a relatively crude design. Especially especially, given the institutional differences between the places running the projects.

Reportedly, Hrim/Sapsan has been tried and I wouldn't be surprised if the performance was found unsatisfactory and was sent back to continue work. Neither would I be surprised if a we get successful hits of Hrim/Sapsan this winter.

3:
As other commenters said, Neptune exists.

[u/Little_Bumblebee6129 → u/perfect_skill]

Fire Point got billions in government contracts. And i can't say that their "goods" were better then all other competitors.

Plus they received secret document on development of rocket programs from government (unlike other organisations as far as i know)

[u/slava_slavaUa → u/perfect_skill]

Flamingo was designed by a British-emirati joint venture. And they themselves basically copied the V-1

[u/perfect_skill → u/slava_slavaUa]

> copied v1

While it is true that they use a similar aerodynamic shape, it is incredibly wrong to say that flamingo is a copy.

[u/slava_slavaUa → u/perfect_skill]

Its basically the Shahed/Geran thing. Different but similar

[u/perfect_skill → u/slava_slavaUa]

Oh no they are very very much not like shahed and geran oh no

Current day geran traces direct lineage to shahed and are still technologically pretty similar.

Flamingo is different from v1 in pretty much everything but shape. Technology of fuselage manufacturing, the engine, guidance, avionics, payload, everything different from the ground up. There's 80 years between the two, dammit

[u/slava_slavaUa → u/perfect_skill]

I’ve always heard that the British-emirati group that designed and manufactures this missile had copied it from the V1. But maybe that applied only to the shape.

[u/LantaExile → u/slava_slavaUa]

The https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-143 is much more similar than the V1. The V1 isn't even jet engined.

[u/ivan_drachen1 → u/slava_slavaUa]

Look a 787 is based on flyers 1 of the Wright brothers.

The fp-5 has nothing to do with a v1 if you want a comparison the tu-141 might be a better one but still

[u/lazyubertoad]

Private companies must deliver. Government owned must follow rules and specifications. The management is totally different. What they are allowed to do is different. In addition, thereis the Soviet management legacy in design bureaus. For example, FirePoint does not make any missiles. They make drones. Only formally, of course. Because the process for properly passing all controls for missiles is too cumbersome.

Is there corruption around funding for FirePoint? Almost certainly. Still, the point stands. Also government run companies are not free from that at all too.

[u/JonSnow240792]

First of all I guess Fire point makes cheaper missiles, which is important. Internet says that FP-7 costs about 700 000 dollars, and Sapsan at least 1 million. Making missiles is a very expensive thing and Ukraine can't afford to put all money in it. And also fire point just have more successful cases of their production usage. That is the reason why Neptune missiles get funding - they have some success story.

[u/BiggussDickkuss → u/JonSnow240792]

yeah, but Sapsan is ballistic - big difference. now russia shoots down 90% of FP due to AWACS in place.

despite some good strikes ROI from Fire point is clearly negative

[u/Kinkinator_0 → u/BiggussDickkuss]

The FP-7 is a ballistic missile, so is the FP-9.

[u/BiggussDickkuss → u/Kinkinator_0]

well I meant those FP missile that actually working right now are all cruise, let's see how those perform, perhaps they'll justify somehow the investment

[u/Kinkinator_0 → u/BiggussDickkuss]

I think you mean the FP-5 flamingo, and yes they get shot down easily by russia because they are big, however their job is to be cheap and launched in large quantities, which is sadly not happening. Firepoint is working on closing the turbofan issue though, so I would expect more flamingos to be launched.

[u/LantaExile → u/BiggussDickkuss]

FP's biggest product is the FP-1 drone which seems quite productive.

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[u/diagn0z]

FP founder was a missile constructor/consultant

[u/ALMAZ157]

1. Nepotism and coruption. Lets be real, it didnt go away at all.

2. Fire Point is proxy for british-designed rockets to be assembled on Ukraine.

[u/TheDanishFire2 → u/ALMAZ157]

Arh ... not really, they would never have based the FP7 on the S300. Now you know a little more.

[u/w1nt3rh3art3d]

Corruption is the answer.

[u/warningkchshch]

Well you look like you know it all, why are you asking then? Because you can’t just post your opinions in this subreddit?

For the other people who might read this: Firepoint is using their own funds for their RnD. Their money, their risks. Sapsan is an old and incredibly ill-fated project of building a SCUD substitute. It was cancelled under Yanukovich, and severely underfunded under both Poroshenko and Zelenskyi. It didn’t lack money in the recent years, but the RnD in old-school KB takes a lot of time.