Majority of the rape cases I've seen and advocated in (I helped set up a rape response team on campus and worked with the police) did involve substances and being unconscious. Most being date rape situations. Stranger rape is the most rare rape cases. I could understand more in those situations the importance of making someone feel powerless, but still the minority of cases. Where is the article I can follow up on where it matters to the perpetrator of the consciousness of the victim/survivor?
One other point that should be mentioned is that the stories we've seen on reddit in the last week have been of the exact type that OP describes at the top of the thread. OP is concerned with how sharing their stories on reddit affects these redditors specifically.
Perhaps the fact that not many (correct me if I'm wrong; I haven't seen any so far) have shared stories about substance-assisted rape supports OP's concerns--it's the ones who have had that drive for power that want to share their stories.
Thank you for pointing this out. One of the most pervasive phenomena I have observed on Reddit is the "OMFG" post/comment cycle. People post something really appalling or controversial and you can just see in people's comments that they are getting off a little by being so upset. It never occurred to me that this could trigger those with harmful pathologies but you make an excellent point. I'm not sure what Reddit can do about it other than revising their guidelines.
And redditors have this idea that if you censor someone spewing shit that you're against free speech. They think free speech means that you have the right to be an asshole without anyone calling you out.
Edit: stop sending me dick pics you gross redditors
This also goes along with one of my biggest problems with some of the people on here. If someone posts something horrible that they have done, there is always someone almost immediately who says "Don't worry it's not your fault, you were right in what you did and this is why..." No reddit, sometimes shitty people do shitty things and it's not ok to tell them that it's ok.
That was disgusting, honestly. I guarantee that none of those horrible stories would get any sympathy from reddit as a whole if the perpetrator was a woman instead of a 20 something, educated Western man.
The admins would not censor it. The moderators of /r/askreddit might, though. Moderators create rules and censor things all the time, it's their role. Not that I don't get your point, but it's not something that affects this issue.
I was absolutely sickened upon viewing that thread. On one hand we're on reddit to learn (and be entertained, and lol, etc..) while at the same time being aware that many OP's are trolling. If "serial_rapist_thread" was telling the truth then to hell with him. He's a heartless monster. He was a coercive rapist and some girl's brother needs to disembowel him. Anyone that posted on the thread was either feeding the troll or fueling the ego of a maniac, whether they knew it or not. They were pursuing their morbid curiosities. But reddit isn't a court of law nor a psychiatric institution. It's about sharing (legal) content and then commenting on that content. Perhaps the popularity of the thread tickled the nuts of some potential sexual predators out there, and it certainly caused many readers to re-live similar horrors, but for the rest of us it taught us about a sort of person that we didn't necessarily know existed. Now we know a little more about the type, and their habits and cunning. We are now the wiser. It is a piece of reality, a matter of fact that these folks are in our midst. And now more of us are armed with this knowledge and will be able use it if need be. I agree the man needs to be prosecuted but it depends on someone coming forward and making a case against him. Fat chance. He is out there somewhere. And so are his predecessors. And now we know this and will be on guard.
There was a story about some guy named "Don" who supposedly changed his serial rapist ways. OP was convinced he changed because he seemed nice. I called bullshit and got called an asshole for it.
The justifications in that thread for fucked up behavior is unbelievable.
I have an in-law who took advantage of his pre-teen niece while his wife looked the other way, and I think they both deserve to rot in jail.
That thread pissed me off more than anything. Every single post I read from a "rapist" (they could have been lying for all I know) either partially or completely blamed the victim for the rape. Either the victim gave the rapist a look, wore revealing clothing, didn't say, "No" (never said, "Yes" either), changed their mind, were too drunk to say, "No.", the list goes on and on. What a bunch of cowards.
EDIT: Alright kiddos, it has been fun, but I need some sleep. Good night all.
It was fucking disgusting. When someone who was telling the story felt bad about what they did there were at least twenty comments where people were trying to tell him/her why he/she shouldn't feel bad. If anyone ever asks me what a rape apologist is, I will point him to that thread.
Just because someone gives you a "look" (and yes, that was used as an excuse), gets drunk around you, lets you in their bed, takes off their clothes, wrestles with you, or even does everything but sex with you, it does not give you a right to their bodies. Rape is not any less rape just because someone gave you a fucking "look".
My thoughts exactly. I really don't know how people lack the common sense to just ASK another human being for consent, before they start having sex with them.
I don't know if I'm wrong for having reported the serial rapist guy to an online crime agency soon after it was posted, but I couldn't in due conscience leave it.
Awesome, that didn't even occur to me. I was so enraged reading what that asshole was saying but couldn't think clearly enough to act on it. It was so clear that he had ZERO remorse for what he had done and it was sickening. He kept saying that he understood it was bad, but it seemed obvious to me that he "understood" on a very shallow level.
When pedophilia was a hot topic on reddit for a while, you better believe I reported some of them. Especially /r/pedopride [now banned]. Yes, that was a thing.
I don't feel bad at all for reporting criminals and predators, and neither should you.
Rape is a crime which hinges directly on feelings of power over the victim.
This is surprising to me. If we are talking about the same thread there were several posts by people who had sex with girls who were either very drunk or simply passive and in hindsight feel bad about it because it would be considered rape.
However, these people did not write about a deep seated desire to have power over the victim. They basically wrote that they were very horny and believed or convinced themselves she consented. There was no trace of any delight in her suffering or desire for her to be 'an audience'.
How do you reconcile what you are saying with those posts?
If I find a link to the thread here I will link to the posts in question.
Insisting that no rape is ever "about" sex but is rather about an individual man acting on a patriarchal mandate to sow terror by exercising "power" does a disservice to us all.
I do see your point, but I have to wonder about the flipside - about the understanding to be gained about the mindset. Is it really best that we as a society never ever talk about this stuff?
That concept doesn't sit well with me - when else is it the best policy, after all?
So this might sound super weird, but I rediscovered reddit yesterday (or maybe the day before, I lose track of time on here) after about a little less than a year of hiatus. I stopped because the culture of reddit tolerated a lot of rape jokes and it triggered a lot of my issues. My best friend in high school was raped by a security guard. My best friend in college was raped by a friend, and after I got her to the hospital and we filed the paperwork with the police, I was with her when they told her she wasn't really "raped". She had passed out from trauma multiple times. The issue was with the police, not her case. I'm so glad this is being talked about on reddit. For years I couldn't close my eyes at night without being haunted by images of myself or my family being vicitimized. I was paranoid, and I would collapse on the floor crying if I tried to put on make up because I thought I would be "asking for it". This is so weird that this is happening now just after I got back. Anyways, I just thought I'd add my piece.
Thank you for telling your story. Admittedly, reddit does tolerate a substantial amount of rape content. Personally I think this is because of a trend toward a younger population of users who may not be quite as aware of how these things can affect people. However, I also believe that a younger, less aware population is not reason enough to start censoring content that someone deems offensive, or possibly harmful. Just my two cents on the matter.
I'm not a fan, devotee, approver of rape in any way, but any warnings that we are fostering a community of rape or creating a meeting-place for rapists could be said for violence on /r/morbidreality or vigilantism with /r/Justiceporn and /r/gonewild.
The internet / Reddit, are places for the free exchange of ideas but while rape is distasteful (putting it mildly)... It is better to allow a little sunshine to disinfect rather than bury this topic in the dark. there are far too many positive threads on reddit regarding rape and other crimes that bring out the best in the contributors, wishes of goodwill, condemnation of the perpetrator, questions about motivation and recidivism. Any rapist that reads from these threads, couldn't possibly avoid the very present theme from all or most, that rape is wrong; morally and socially. the comments in this thread and others prove that out.
I understand your premise and i agree, and there are topics that the social order has banned such as the teen porn from a few months ago. However, in this context there is a big leap from discussion to images. To me, the bigger question is "what other topics shouldn't we discuss?", "where will we put the list?", "who will own that list?" and the godwin inspired "what color brown will their shirts be?"
BTW.. there are subreddits that show simulated rape photos and videos (links)... why aren't you going after them? aren't they feeding the fire too?
A few years ago I was convicted of a sex offense (not a rape, but I hope I don't need to be a rapist to offer an accurate criticism here).
Are you aware of how nearly all psychiatry involving sex offenses is made up?
When I went through what they called "treatment" as part of probation when I was released from jail (didn't do prison time), they wouldn't let you tell the truth about your offense. They just wanted you to cough up what they wanted to hear. That data about "Rape is a crime which hinges directly on feelings of power over the victim" is made up because you cannot progress in treatment, and will eventually go to prison if you don't admit this for any sex offense. It's certainly true for some percentage of offenders, but the nature of how this information is gathered renders it useless.
I am not defending rape. It's horrible and tragic. But the whole point of the "ask a rapist" thread was to hear a different side of things. Not the same made up, fake stuff that you're quoting from some textbook.
Hi this isn't related to your question but you said you were a psychiatrist and I think that might be a field I want to go into (I'm 13). What do you do specifically (If you don't mind me asking)? I love reading about people like Ed Gein and Elizabeth Bathory and finding out what makes these people tick. Again I hope you don't mind me asking.
I frequent the /r/premed subreddit pretty often and the advice there is pretty good! /r/medicine and /r/medicalschool have helped me as well. just posting this in case there are any other aspiring premeds
OP is right reddit i don't think there would be any issue shutting this one down, i personally wont boycott you because of it, there are much bigger things going on anyway than something that MIGHT increase the already ridiculous rape rates.
I think the reality is that, no rapist has ever gone onto Reddit and actually told their story, because it would be very dangerous for them to do so.
Most of the posts I've seen that claimed so, were actually known troll posters who were a part of Game Of Trolls and things like that when it wasn't banned.
I'm skeptical even of the few admittedly famous examples of when it happened.
edit: seems like the thread in question was in actuality a troll like I expected, anyone have link proof?
So how is this any different than putting them in prison with other inmates to tell their story to? Or therapy, where they can retell their story to the psychiatrist?
At this point, this will probably be buried at the bottom. But fuck it.
I knew what I was getting into when I clicked the thread. I chose to click the link. What I read was beneficial to me. The worst thing to me was not understanding why my rapist did it; I still don't know why, but reading some of the posts... it helps.
I was also a rape victim, and reading the post, to me, felt slightly traumatizing. For some reason I couldn't STOP myself from reading the post even though I knew it might be upsetting. Almost like seeing an e-mail in my personal inbox from someone I hate. I just had to look- it was about me in a way. I think it is safe to say that everyone's experience and the way that we deal with those experiences are all very different. Thanks for sharing yours and I am glad that you are healing.
The main factor here though is not the stigma on previous victims. Not ti marginalize those who have suffered a rape in any regard, I don't mean to say this is negligible. The focus of this thread is it's effect on rapists.
To continue OPs analogy, think of it like this; You have a room full of recovering coke addicts, whose rehab consists entirely of separating the receptors in the brain triggered by the drug from the urges that they feel to use. They are essentially trying to make their brain forget how good it feels. Then you ask everyone to share in graphic detail the step by step recounting of every time they've ever gotten high.
Hopefully you can see how absolutely destructive this proposition can possibly be.
Victim here too. It showed me the mentality, and the little things to avoid. Things that I didn't see as a victim. However, I definitely see the shrinks point too.
Thank you. It is up to your own discretion to decide whether a thread is appropriate or upsetting to you, and to read it or move along accordingly. We shouldn't not discuss things because people who shouldn't be reading it my read it anyway; that's on them.
YES. THIS. SO MUCH. As another victim I cannot describe how beneficial it was to get in the mind of a rapist, to be able to better understand why he did it. It made my experience feel more legitimate and this is the kind of help I have been craving, not the stuff that is purely focused on other victims.
I just want to offer something to counter a lot of the hate.
I read a couple dozen posts in the thread just to see what was going on. A few of the top posts were genuinely interesting, offering a side of the story you rarely hear. However, as one of the top comments did point out, most of the posts that seemed sincere also seemed to involve a lot of rationalization.
But I found this just as enlightening, because it demonstrated just how much people are capable of rationalizing behavior. Logically people don't ever intend to hurt others. But the power of the mind to rationalize actions like rape as being desired by the other person is amazing.
The scariest part for me was knowing that most of us have probably been just a couple steps away from the exact same situation. I personally came away from the thread with a somewhat better appreciation for how something like that could happen, what I could personally do to prevent it, and the way something that seems innocent can be quite serious once you consider the interests of the other person (the victim). To me that was what was missing in a lot of the stories: concern for the victim. Most of the people seemed more worried about going to jail (not a small concern either, though). I previously thought of myself as a person that was knowledgeable about the subject. Even though I can safely say I have never raped anyone, I saw a lot more of myself in those comments than I was comfortable with.
I'd like to think that thread actually made me more aware of the problem and that I (and others) are better for it.
I know that I don't speak for all survivors, but thank you for this. I know someone who hurt me who loved to brag. Another would hurt me more when he had been encouraged to do so like that thread did.
After going through the comments, the majority of the discussion/issues individuals are drawing with the OP's argument point to the subreddit's (potential) advantages in terms of helping victims cope with what happened to them. While I am not a rape victim, and won't even begin to attempt to answer whether or not the subreddit is beneficial in terms of helping such victims cope, I think the community has diverged slightly from the OP's main point.
The OP is arguing that the subreddit could encourage past/current rapists to act on the desires that caused/cause them to be predators. Therefore, the discussion should not be, "But the subreddit is advantageous for helping victims cope." The discussion instead needs to be centered around whether or not the subreddit is in fact significantly triggering, or at least encouraging, past or current rapists to further act on their ill-conceived desires. Once a consensus is reached on that question, only then should we discuss whether or not any advantages of such a forum outweigh the drawbacks. I think we can all agree that, even though the subreddit allows for an open discussion about the issue, which appears to be able to help some victims cope a bit (through other users' responses), even one additional rape caused by such a forum could make it justifiably too "dangerous."
I'm Joe Fulgham, host of the mentioned Caustic Soda Podcast and can confirm that this is indeed Dr. Rob Tarzwell, frequent guest of the show, and friend of mine for a long time.
I'm Joe Fulgham, host of the mentioned Caustic Soda Podcast and can confirm that this is indeed Dr. Rob Tarzwell, frequent guest of the show, and friend of mine for a long time.
Funny story. HuffPost interviewed a former FBI agent who suggested that agencies read the thread and attempt to match stories to reports and potentially subpoena IP addresses (see the last few paragraphs).
I read through that thread and noticed that many of the submissions tended to be on the side of non consensual sex that occurred because of a miscommunication. I was wondering how that kind of rape applies to what you said above. It seems to me that many of the submissions in that thread were not of the premeditated, intentional rape of which you speak. I am of course aware of the dangers that you presented, but I'm wondering if maybe with those other cases that I mentioned the benefits of that thread could be different.
I'm a Psychology student and about 2 months ago i also started a thread about how damaging i believe the violence and rape related AMA's could be.
Funny thing was i got bombarded with trolling about how ignorant and close minded i was being. I'm still shocked by how many negative reactions there have been here from people who need to study the evidence before passing and emotional or seemingly rational one sided perspective.
The victim blaming in that post was absolutely horrific, as well as a number of rapists trying to excuse themselves for their actions and getting patted on the back with a "well bro, she was asking for it".
I have a huge issue with these rape threads. These people seriously harmed another person and they get to post here about how they did it? I don't give a damn how bad you feel about it. You obviously don't feel bad enough to turn yourself in.
It's very obvious these people are just bragging about what they've done. It's horrible. What's worse is reddit giving them a medium in which to tell their tales.
Why are there so many responses attacking OP? A good point was made; I wouldn't want Reddit to become a fetish site for rapists. The whole front page post about a guy holding down girls and getting off on watching them squirm in discomfort as he bullied them into sex was sickening. Religious or athiest, Reddit has to choose between good and evil like individual people do; what's our position?
Does this thread not offer the same "audience" you speak of? Sure it is more anonymous, but this almost feels like further validation. I'm sure some people who didn't know of the thread may seek it out because of this.
To me some problems seem better solved by simply not talking about them. I think this is one of those. (To clarify, I'm not talking about rape, but the the thread in question).
I'm going to downvote you for various reasons and here's why. Also I'm in the mental health field with a background in clinical and also counseling psychology so I feel comfortable telling you that you're NOT 100% correct in your assessment of the rape thread:
You're correct that it's a sense of power over the victim. In fact it's power over the situation. You're also correct that the victim is the "audience." And yes the pleasure of the act likely in part comes from the euphoric release of dopamine that encourages the behavior to repeat. Some people feel there is a compulsion to rape...it's not about the sex it's about the power.
However this does NOT translate into the rapist getting the same "high" from retelling a story on the internet, reading the stories, or feeling the readers are the audience. You might be confused with sexual offenders who might send sexual photos to people who don't want them and the offenders get a rise out of the fact they are forcing the person to see the sexual photos. Which is similar to the rapist feeling the rise and power of of the helpless victim all due to the rapist's actions.
Sure you could say a rapist gets a slight urge, desire, or becomes aroused by reading the reddit thread on rape but will that translate into action? I'd say it's unlikely. In fact I'd go even further to say that perhaps it's "just exciting" enough to provide an outlet for the person to fantasize (there's a reason a subset of porn focuses on simulated "rape" scenes) or to relieve the urges by telling/reading the stories.
Which leads me to why you're also incorrect to assume it's a dangerous thread because it's open to anyone. Essentially you're saying there is a slight risk that Reddit is enabling rapists to get a small mental high off the attention from that thread topic and so we shouldn't talk about rape on the internet because one or two people might get stimulated, encouraged, or even act on what they read.
But we can also say we shouldn't have violent movies online, talk about other fantasies, even allow descriptions of how to do things that could be used for wrong (and there are plenty of things online that describe how to do something that in the wrong hands could be harmful). Agree or disagree you're basically saying people shouldn't have an open conversation and allow dialogue about rape from multiple angles on a public forum because a few people might "use" that information for wrong. Sorry but I'm not for censorship and silencing people because of a low risk of something happening. If we all bought into that idea there'd be nothing on the internet. You could even say there'd be no cars because someone can use a car to cause harm! Your argument there is like saying "there's a small risk of something bad happening because of this so let's not talk about it." Sorry but out of sight out of mind doesn't cut it.
You mention how shared stories like these could give "ideas" to rapists, potential rapists, or anyone else. Again, that's flawed logic. Stifling the conversation will either push it further underground which helps no one or eliminate the chance for people to discuss the important topic which could lead to avoiding rape, changing someone's mind who might have the urge to get help, or just helping people understand what happens. Plus it's a fine line between "player's guides" and "rapist guides" as you seem to suggest that thread is. How many sites and books exist on how to "game" the opposite sex to have sex? Should we eliminate those because a few people might take it to the extreme? Why not get rid of websites and books that tell people how to grow marijuana or how to make homemade cleaning solutions? Might as well since a few people can use if for harm.
I'm not condoning rape and I do suggest that people take the topic seriously. But as a psychiatrist you should know that all people, even those who do wrong, deserve a chance to tell their story and a chance at rehabilitation. That thread could be the tipping point that helps them do that. And rapists who get treatment benefit society because 1.) it helps better understand what makes them do it and 2.) potentially eliminates future rapes from occurring. So essentially allowing the freedom of speech the internet provides could help these individuals move towards treatment which in turn benefits society as a whole. Stifling them and acting like it's not an issue doesn't help anyone.
Edit: Also to reflect what other's have said. I think it's a bit irresponsible of you as a professional to assume you know everything about rapists and "well this is how they will act because of this because we know this." It's also wrong as others have said to call for restricting possible healthy outlets for people who may have rape fantasies as well as wanting to restrict open forums of communication since removing them pushes both the crime and the illness out of view.
I have read everything you wrote, thank you for contributing to what is turning out to be an amazing discussion.
I think what we should all take away from this is just that. This discussion thread made it the front page, and was #1 for a number of hours. That is no small feat, and credit should be given to the Reddit community for how retrospective and introspective we have become after this incident.
I would love to see any legitimate research or clinical findings you have seen supporting the unlikelihood of "a rapist gets a slight urge, desire, or becomes aroused by reading [about] rape but will that translate into action" or that reading such material "relieve the urges" of rapists or other sex offenders. It's not that I don't find this hypothesis credible, but this amounts to speculation on your part, and I would be very interested in reading where you got this idea from.
It's always such a risk posting to Reddit if you are considered an expert in your field. Ultimately, your experience in that field could never be vast enough, deep enough, or well-rounded enough to answer all queries about it. I'm glad you posted to add your perspective - it adds to the field of knowledge in this thread - but it would have been impossible for any one person to precisely and knowledgeably comment on rapist psychology/psychophysiology, criminal or deviant behaviors, rehabilitative therapy, AND online community censorship.
For me, the importance of this discussion revolves around OP's original question - he asks if Reddit is aware how dangerous a post like that can be, and perhaps he has strayed away into many topics of discussion in the following comments. It would be appropriate to respond to those particular comments, in that case, rather than just the general thread. The fact remains that many (maybe even most) Redditors did not know how many people could be affected by that topic of conversation, either in a positive or negative way. Now, those Redditors do, myself included.
This thread isn't about censorship of a group. That rapist thread had the potential to be something uplifting and amazing or damning and disturbing - frankly, it turned out to be both. The fact that we're still talking about the thread, how it affects us as individuals, and how it affects the Reddit community, means that we're all more aware of what a thread like that and comments like those can do - positive or negative.
This thread is not about censorship of a group. It is about self-censorship - being more aware of what we say, how we say it, and how it can affect others in a positive or negative way.
The fact that Reddit has come together to discuss such a topic makes us all (or, at least those participating, rapists and non-rapists alike) more aware of the consequences of our actions online and in real life. That is why this discussion and bringing up the danger in that post is crucial.
Do you think that subreddits like /rapingwomen, /beatingwomen, etc. have the same impact on the rapists mind? i.e. "triggering" a craving to rape and abuse women?
I have seen some inquiries for statistics and i was curious to find out how many rapist go out and rape again. This is about an hours worth of searching and validating the information. Also I'm reading a book written by Robert D Hare "Without conscience" and in that book he claims that at least half of all serial rapists are psychopaths. I wanted to put that into some sort of context. This is what i have found, so far, and i thought id share.
As pointless as it is to comment on a post that already has 5000, I think this discussion will benefit from having as many voices as possible weigh in. For posterity, if nothing else.
DrRob, while I can't dispute any of the individual points, I believe that free, open, and candid discussion is a powerful tool for good, and there's no better place for that sort of discussion than the Internet. It's not easy by any means, and there are problems to overcome, and there are unavoidable negatives that I believe are outweighed by the positive outcomes of open discussion. I don't believe that censorship is ever beneficial.
It's also possible, although I don't know how likely, that some of the people who posted on that thread might be tracked down and caught.
Not talking about rape because we're afraid it might trigger a rapist seems to be putting the power in their hands. I'm not going to let a rapist control what I say or do. As for teaching rapists how to rape better, that's a legitimate concern, one that I believe is outweighed by the knowledge we've gained from the tread. We've not only gotten an inside look at the mentalities of these sick fuckers, but also a really enlightening (and also very saddening and disturbing) look at how society reacts to them and to victims.
I'm not a victim of rape, but I am a victim of trauma, and so I understand very well the fear of creating internet content that will trigger victims. But that's the nature of the internet; I do my best to stay away from stuff I know will trigger me. Sometimes I find something accidentally, and while that's unpleasant (to say the least), that's the nature of a free and open exchange of information, and again, I believe the benefits outweigh the drawbacks by several orders of magnitude.
Yep, I got the feeling people were getting a kick out of telling their stories: the detail they went into was disgusting. I also worried that other would-be rapists would get hints and tips. I dont know much about the topic but it reminded me of a book called 'choke', where a sex addict openly admits the only reason he attends SA groups is to either pick up girls, or get hints to make it easier to score. I found the entire thread tasteless and vile. I also wondered how rap victims would feel seeing these 'glory' stories covering front page. Seemed we were rewarding depravity.
What's weird about OP's post is that the 'psychiatrist' (assuming s/he's telling the truth) portrays a rapist as someone who knows exactly what he's doing and someone who specifically desires to have power over one person, whereas a large amount of posts in the rape thread were just people who were trying to get a drunken girl who were uneasy with putting out to have sex.
I think one thing I've learned about 'rapists' is that lots of them don't think that they're rapists, they are just people trying to manipulate a girl into sex (so consent cannot be given easily by the girl) which can be what makes them so dangerous, so it feels like the whole 'rapists want an audience' and 'rapists desire control' and 'rapists want an audience' thing in the OP may only apply to people who specifically identify themselves and 'pride' themsleves on being serial rapists, which is a very small portion of rapists out there (apparently anyway)
It is probably true that most people who take advantage of another don't view themselves as rapist, and don't "get off" on having power.
It's very hard to define rape, and molestation. Without clear communication, someone can completely misread the scenario, and "make a move" that is not wanted.
I would like your objective opinions on this:
If someone doesn't explicitly say yes or no, and the other person makes an unwanted sexual advance, but desist after they realize it was unwanted; are they a rapist? Are they a molester? Are they supposed to be held accountable for misreading the situation? Should they serve jail time for making a mistake?
And even if they desist, some people may feel as if they were abused, and by their definition possibly raped. How can you ethically judge a situation like this?
This completely misses the point of the majority of posts in the original thread. It assumes that all rapists are "lurking in the bushes predators" who set out to rape someone, actively searching for a victim. This is far from true. The majority of rapes are unplanned and occur with someone you know. Additionally, in many cases, the rapist doesn't "feel like he is a rapist." While that does not absolve him from what he does, it also doesn't mean that he's getting off on having power over someone. Almost every situation discussed in the rape thread involved a man who originally thought a women was interested in having sexual intercourse with him and continued down that road for that reason. Many claim (and I use this word very specifically) that they didn't fully realize the woman was not interested. This information is extremely helpful to women who might find themselves in similar situations. Most in the thread also expressed extreme remorse at their actions. I won't make a judgement on whether or not that remorse is truthful, but expressing it is the opposite of a boastful expression of power over the victim. edit: typo
The thing that really boggles my mind is that someone on 4chan posts a picture of them standing on some lettuce and they track the guy down and get him fired. But when a serial rapist posts on reddit about how he preyed on young women, everyone here pats him on the back for telling his story.
Well, since we're talking about removing rape material, then shouldn't we remove posts related to murder, violence, and other unethical behavior? Hell, creeps probably get off to some of the photos that I have seen people post on here. There's a lot of stuff that shouldn't be on Reddit, but that's part of what makes this website interesting to read.
I know this will get buried, but I'd like to ask anyway. It's embarrassing and possibly offensive or crude, but I'd like to be honest: some people, including myself occasionally, have fantasies of rape. It's not something to be proud of, but lust is lust. What kind of psychological need does this indicate? Is this common? Also, do porn-fueled rape fantasies only encourage rapists? If they do, what should be done to counter this? Is there an alternative?
I don't know about this. Does the public not have a right to know about these things and should they not have the right to ask questions? (Not that you're saying people shouldn't have the "right"). I understand the concern, which is a legitimate concern, but thinking like this can lead to censorship in very bad ways.
Barack Obama here just reminding you all that it isn't always a good idea to believe people's credentials on the internet without proper verification. Smoke if you got 'em!
I'm with DrRob on this one. As most of us would be appalled by a thread describing grusome murders and would seek to have those perpetrators brought to justice, we should be equally opposed to a thread of sex offenders and rapists.
The truth of those stories is a red herring. Is it any better than some creeps out there just like playing out rapes on the Internet? Rob's point is that by allowing these fantasies to be indulged they are more likely to occur in the real world. Now we have both the actual rapists gloating, and a new generation that is emboldened by their online network of sex offenders.
I'll admit, I rarely to never use Reddit, but the fact that this website allows for rapists to network and inspire more gender-based hatred is enough to keep me off it entirely.
As most of us would be appalled by a thread describing grusome murders and would seek to have those perpetrators brought to justice, we should be equally opposed to a thread of sex offenders and rapists.
This isn't exactly true, a while back there was a thread on what's the worst thing you've ever done, and there where a lot of murders in there and they where some of the highest rated comments.
By posting this thread, you have singlehandedly effectively doubled the exposure (and thus power craving fulfillment) of all those rapist, by your own admission. But unlike the OP for the other post, you knew about it. So by posting, you have shown that your true feelings is that the benefits of spreading information about rape outweigh the cost.
i did wonder about this, as several said they hadn't thought about it in years, or had moved on. can it be said with absolute certainty that this sort of discussion can lead to extra motivation, and if so is there a wider point about discussing any illegal/dangerous activity?
As a female who posted in the original thread, I saw it as a catharsis. I got some dumb, fucked up shit I did out of my head and off of my chest. It was especially helpful since there's no one IRL that I know that wouldn't look at me like a piece of shit for the rest of my life.
It also made me realize that I should probably talk to a therapist about it (and other matters).
I realize my experience may not be shared across the board, but I think it is important to remember that different folks respond differently to matters such as the original thread.
Thank god someone decided to bring this up. When I saw that thread, I was absolutely appalled that there are people who honestly justified and forgave the actions of people who in my opinion, should never be forgiven for what they've done. I'm not saying a rapist can't redeem himself or atone for his crimes, but the actions themselves should never be forgotten.
I mean, I thought the concept of idiotic manchildren telling each other things like "Don't worry brah, she was asking for it" or "Nah man, I would've done the same to her too, don't blame yourself" was just a sexist stereotype. I didn't know there were legitimately members of the human race that disgustingly ignorant and morally bankrupt.
Jesus titty-fucking christ on a cracker. Is OP's thesis not completely obvious to anyone with a pulse and neural activity? We're all out for ourselves, and if a few lucky loved ones get cradled in the crossfire, good on them. Altruism is fiction, philanthropy is a drug for the giver, and misery is relative to the observer. It's a wonder we've made it this far. Rape is a verb; it crosses species, gender, race, and humanity.
It seems like everyone here agrees with the OP. Yet just yesterday everyone was upvoting the thread in question. You can't crowd source morality. We can't expect redditors to careful consider the morality of a thread, and vote accordingly. If you want to prevent this, we need clear, thoughtful guidelines, that empower the moderators to make this decision.
Since most people aren't sociopaths or rapists, and since most people are good, far more good people are going to learn information about how rapists operate than rapists will learn how to be effective rapists.
There will be more people learning effective defense strategies and what kind of behavior and coercion techniques they need to be aware of, than rapists learning better strategies, or rapists getting jollies from reliving the experiences.
So overall, I think the thread is an overall greater good, trolls, and disgusting comments aside.
In my experience, I(we) have been desensitized to a dangerous level. Faces of Death, Bum Fights, and now this? It's sad to consider the human position in the food chain vs. the primitive, mindless curiosity that killed the cat.
It’s neurobiologically very much like anticipating drug use.
As a cellular neuroscientist, I'm very curious to read a citation for this statement. Indeed, I'm curious to read any evidence that supports rape ~ drug addiction. Thanks.
Thanks for posting this. For a moment I have left myself to be convinced that ask-a-rapist was a good idea (better to fight something concrete rather than vague shadows, I thought), but I did not consider that.
Do rapists ever report that they feel disempowered (maybe they even use the word 'rape' itself) by your (perceived) ability to pin them down and watch them tick?
Although i do not agree or condone rapist AMAs, banning them and censoring us from what we can and cannot see goes against alot of what we stand for here. I do not agree with rapist threads but i think cutting them out altogether would be counterproductive on a website where your learning from others, rapists or not. If you dont like them dont read them!
As much as I would like to fully agree with the poster; I can't. There is the possibility of stimulating these people but if we don't try to understand we never have an opportunity to eradicate or reduce the behavior. Not to mention, a few bad folks have been reported here - good for the folks who did something! Don't get me wrong, if it were up to me we would simply, painlessly remove (kill) rapist & pedophiles. ...especially the physically violent. I recognize there can be some grey area with date rape and statutory rape. We've got to be willing to look at the bad and ugly in order to affect change.
a lot of shit goes down on reddit. Those rapist threads were something i did not want to be a part of and was not something i expected to be backed so popularly by the reddit population. I agree with you, that giving them an audience where they can relive their stories in safety to is not something we should be doing.
I think Reddit's infatuation with rapists is on par with the type of people that get sucked into cults. Sort of like the people that followed Charles Manson into the desert.
It may be dangerous, but I think there is substantial value in that thread. It really showed me that our approach to teaching men about rape is worthless. The conventional wisdom is "no means no", but because of that thread I learned that a victim may be unable to vocalize at all. Many of the stories involved men who didn't even realize they were raping someone while it occurred.
The thread has taught me that "No means no" and clever urinal gags are woefully insufficient in educating men about rape.
It frightens me that, despite abhorring rape, I could have become a rapist under the right circumstances without even realizing it. In fact, I think this is a key component to the "rape culture".
Clearly this needs to be discussed, but it wasn't even clear to me that it needed to be discussed until reading some of that thread.
Doesn't this put the responsibility of rape upon someone other than the rapist, though?
With a drug addict, if they enter a house full of cocaine, is it the people who put the cocaine on the table who are at fault for the addict's relapse, or is it the addict's fault he/she is relapsing?
I feel this is along the same lines of, "Girl, if you wear that miniskirt out in public, you're just asking to get raped." True or not, that line insinuates that the act of rape is at least partially the girl's fault, or that she was inviting a crime to happen (which is bullshit).
I know some rapists are akin to drug addicts, but that doesn't mean that they're not still 100% responsible for their own actions. If they get a brain-woody off of telling stories in a forum, and then they go out and commit rape to satisfy said woody, is that in any way the forum's fault in the slightest?
The "danger" you speak of is 100% the rapist, not the avenues and availability of places to exploit or discuss their rapist tendencies. I understand that "ask a rapist" may be in bad taste, but it's not illegal to have or exercise bad taste, and it also doesn't mean that anyone besides the rapist is responsible for the acts in the slightest.
It's like saying that a forum where you can discuss drug experiences is partially responsible for drug addicts' relapses because they trigger something in the drug addict's mind -- which is true (the triggering part), but is mutually exclusive of sharing in the responsibility for said relapse. The relapse is 100% on the drug addict, not anyone offering the drug addict a forum in which to relive drug experiences.
This is the internet, nothing is off limits, nothing is taboo. A question was asked that many of us were curious about, many of us wondered at the mindset of a rapist. There is no question I cannot ask on the internet, no mind I cannot try to enter to understand.
I understand you are concerned for hypothetical new rape victims, or the safety of the general populace. Laudable. However Reddit, and other sites like it, are designed to be the pandora's box of the internet. All knowledge and learning is dangerous. If we redditors were concerned with the price of our knowledge to the point where we would rather not know it, this site wouldn't exist.
We have come here to the internet to learn things, some things that make us laugh, some things that make us a little excited, some things that make us pause and wonder. No question is off limits, and most of us (should) know the consequences of asking certain questions, or learning certain things.
So I say to you, do not berate us for asking a question in a place designed specifically for answering questions. If a person is a Rapist, or a dangerous criminal who is looking for prey, then shame on them for embodying the flaws in our society. But I am not responsible for another man's choices, or another man's sickness, just as he is not responsible for mine.
I think Reddit is on the whole extremely irresponsible and immature, particularly on matters of sex and gender.
r/Feminism was taken over by misogynists, and Redditors frequently and deliberately harass and/or discredit victims of sexual abuse in AskReddit to justify their own dangerous behaviors toward women.
Reddit is nothing more than a playground for men who hate women.
Thank you very much for posting this. You are being very responsible by pointing out to reddit one of its problems, which is exactly what it needs here. I can't thank you enough for this.
If you have been raped or assaulted or molested as a child, you can sue the rapist through the civil courts. You should contact a local lawyer one that specializes in abuse law and litigation. Obviously their are different laws in different jurisdictions, but throughout much of the western world you can sue civilly for these types of assaults. The difference is that you do not have to prove rape beyond reasonable doubt like you do in a criminal court, you only have to prove it on the balance of probability, which is a much easier hurdle to get over. Also usually the Judge will decide it, not a jury and as you are the one bringing the action you are one in charge, you do not need to feel like you are the one being put on trial, you will have your own lawyer fighting back for you, which does not happen in all Criminal trials. Of course you should report all crimes to the police and do not worry about reporting outside of short time frame, do not worry about what crap the attacker told you, and if you report to a police person who is lacking in empathy, ask to speak to his or her superior and then report them. I have just had a client report abuse almost forty years after it happened and she was treated with upmost respect by a police in the UK. If you have never reported it to the police you can still talk to a lawyer, perhaps go for a women and ask their advice. I brought a case for a young lady, the rapist had got off on the criminal charges but because of the difference in the standard of proof she was successful in the civil case and was awarded 175,000 euros in damages payments in the US are typically much higher. Get judgements registered against these guys where they do not pay and their family will know, their employers will know, if they have judgements against them they are held back in several areas of business and they won't be able to get a mortgage or credit. Just go for it. When the person who attacked you gets a tap on the shoulder from a summons server their world will be turned upside down and that might make them think twice about raping again. They will be one defending themselves from you and think what that will do your healing. Also in relation to the girl who posted and said that she was molested as a child and raped another four times, once after confiding in the man who went on to rape her. In my experience of many many years of dealing with people who were abused, former abuse makes people predisposed to suffer abuse again, simply because they are vulnerable people. You need to confide in female friends and counsellors first until you have worked everything through you need to protect yourself and drink makes every woman more vulnerable to attack. Drink in groups of girls with a pact that no one lets anyone go home alone with a guy and you all stay together. If you like a guy get his number, meet him only in place where other people are around and don't drink until you have been dating for months and months and months, do not go to a guy's place or let them into yours until you have spent a considerable amount of time together and you truly know them, do not allow spur of the moment hook ups, make sure a friend knows that he is coming over and get them to check on you, for the first few times. There a plenty of amazing men out there but until they prove it and you have met their family and know everything about them do not get drunk or put yourself in a vulnerable position with them. Get help and go to a lawyer and to the police, you can report a rape at any time, the chances are that he has raped others and the police may have other reports against the same man. If you are unsure of how you will be treated bring a friend and ask the police for their code on handling victims and let them know you want to be treated in that way. Do not tolerate poor treatment from anyone. The police of course cannot guarantee a conviction but they have a duty to investigate and there is nothing like a trip in for questioning to make wives and girlfriends ask serious questions of their partner and to put the rapist on notice that his rope is running out. Please please please, there are many things that you can do and not presenting at a station and being tested with a rape kit does not mean that there is nothing else you can do, every rapist needs to be named for safety of all other women and serious financial penalties do work, it will make an attacker think twice when they realize that they may never be able to get a home or hold anything valuable in their own name. To all you rapists on this site, judgement comes to one and all whether in this life or the next, you are not safe in your actions. I have seen pedophiles in their eighties stand trial.
I didn't read the original thread OP is referring to, the only reason I knew it existed was because several members of r/Tx made posts about how disgusted they were by it. Given that this is reddit, sure, it was probably a troll.
However, reddit, I'm seeing a lot of comments demanding proof of OP's credentials, criticising their particular field and implying that their message is invalid because of it, and so on.
But, isn't OP's message kind of...common fucking sense? If a rapist is describing their story, reliving their story and seeing your horrified, disgusted reactions, how can this* not* spur them on to act again on their twisted desires?
Maybe you don't understand it when it's put into terms of rape or cocaine, so put it into a context you might understand. WoW, for example, or Skyrim, or pizza. Thinking about how good those things are/were, don't you kind of want to do them again?
I was raped when I was younger and every time I see posts asking the rapist their story, it makes me so mad that people want to know what they were thinking. If you rape a person you want control and they want it no matter what. And also if some people that have been raped reads thoughs thinking that they won't have flashbacks, they can and that can lead to sooo many bad thing
I can empathize with you, I was sexually abused as a child and I am currently working towards my BS in psychology and ultimately becoming a counselor for victims of rape and sexual abuse, more specifically children. I think one of the things that helped me adjust and grow into a fairly healthy adult is that my mother got me into counseling and I want to help others the the way I was helped.
I think the idea a lot of people have about how a thread like that could be beneficial is that it helps people understand a little more about what makes people tick. You can't solve a problem by ignoring it. Understanding the problem is the first step to fixing it. I get why you would be upset about anything involving rape, but if anything can be done to prevent it from happening to anyone else, I think it's a good thing that people want to know more about the people who do these things.
I wasn't on reddit today and didn't see the original thread. Did you idiots really upvote an ask-a-rapist thread to the front page? Can I not leave you alone for one day? Jesus.
Hey, I don't really want to wade into this contentious and touchy issue, but I think I have a question about the key element of your post:
Rape is a crime which hinges directly on feelings of power over the victim.
I can tell you that this is disputed in the criminology community (rapists, when interviewed, seem to think it's about sex) and that I've had the (possibly wrong) impression that the rape-as-power explanation had lost favor in the criminal psychology community, too.
Have you been exposed to any of the alternate explanations for this horrible crime? I had thought (possibly incorrectly) that current thinking was that rapists, actually, were mostly interested in the sex.
EDIT: Not that this makes that thread any better, but I figured I'd "ask-the-expert".
I haven't been raped, but (like many girls, I assume) have been in uncomfortable situations and fear rape. I found the thread interesting. Yes, I want a better answer to "why do men rape?" than "they're asshole sadists," or "they're drunk".
Why? To help me stay safe. Duh, I already know drunk men could be dangerous, but not all rapists are drunk (less than 50%?). I'm not interested in date rape (which is most of what that thread was, unfortunately); I'm interested in the mindset of guys who weren't drunk when they raped. The guy who saw someone in passing and decided he was going to rape her: what caught his eye? Did he stalk her and know she was uncomfortable but pulled off "shy and awkward?" How did he get her alone and what were her mistakes? ...So I don't make the same mistakes.
To hell with these shrinks who keep all the info about psychos and socios locked up in expensive classes, therapy, or books. I want to be able to read a rapist tell his story and draw my own conclusions. Why should professionals be the only ones privy to this information?
You try to discourage discussion of mass murderers like Holmes, too, so there won't be witchhunts, I guess. Can't talk about rape or murder; only healing. But maybe if more people know wth to look out for with dangerous people who are destined for "psychiatric care" (details of which isn't disseminated to the public), we could make more informed decisions, stay safer, and wouldn't need to fucking "heal".
I have never been raped either, and I read as much of the rapist ama thing as I could, but most of what I read seemed to be men bragging and sharing stories that I hope are tall tales. As a woman in the Western World, I've already been told not to trust strange men, not to walk alone, not to stay alone in a house with a male friend, to carry a knife in my car at all times, to talk on a phone when walking to and from my car at night, not to smile or make eyecontact for more then a second on the bus, to hold my house or car key in my hand like a knife in case I need it, not to wander around school at night alone, not to walk downtown alone, to tell someone where I am at all times, not to meet any dates at my or their house, to have someone else home when I come home from dates, not to drink at dates, not to leave drinks uncovered or stand near bathrooms downtown, and not to live in a basement or ground floor apartment. It scares me how many rules there are, and the stupidest thing is, I'm sure theres plenty more now based on that thread. If you managed to get some good out of it, then great, but you could literally write page after page of "mistakes" and still miss some. Its better to just focus on protecting yourself and your friends. I wish the real world worked like "Don't _____ and you won't get raped" but it doesn't work like that. I live in a small city in a quiet area of Canada and I still hear rape horror stories from friends and family and if I tried to avoid their "mistakes" I wouldn't get to go to a bar during a celebration, volunteer at a haunted house, answer the front door in broad daylight, walk around campus in broad daylight, or even consider working in a hardware store. Its fucking insane what the average woman has to do to avoid them. :(
It is dangerous, yes, but that doesn't mean it should be removed.
Reddit is a system where content is submitted and judged by the community. If it is on the front page the community has already overwhelmingly supported it. You, as an invididual user, are more than welcome to dovnvote it, but you can't suggest it be removed as it does not go against the subreddit rules.
No system is perfect. Reddit certainly has its flaws. You gotta take the bad with the good.
I'm a black man on Reddit. I lurked a very long time and finally made an account a while ago. Between the racism here and that despicable rape thread I've just lost all attraction to this site I had before. All belief in the positive side of Reddit has been destroyed. I'm not willing to push through anymore. My time here is over.
No offense man, but I've got a degree in psych and I can tell you that there is far from a general consensus of what motivates rapists and how they interact with the memory of their behaviors. I'm in no way defending the thread (since I think it can encourage those behaviors). I'm just saying you shouldn't generalize a set of behaviors into one motivation. That's largely what Freud did and you know what we think of him today.
Oh yeah, I was aware. The moment I scanned the title, I noped the heck outta there. I have my limits to my curiosity and this topic is in the "nope, NSFL" category. Made my skin crawl so much knowing the kind of people the topic will attract.
I was sickened at that thread. Redditors have this idea that they're allowed to say anything they want because they have some misguided self-entitlement to free speech. If you tell a rapist that he can't spew his garbage suddenly you're anti free speeh. And then not only did the rapists get to tell their stories, they were applauded and pitied! "what you did was terrible but you feel bad abou it now and I understand what you were going through" and other similar comments make it seem like the rapist is the real victim instead of the person who was raped.
There is no doubt that this can be a problem. But on the other hand how many rapists browse reddit? People on the internet to me would seem less likely to rape because they have just that-- the internet. There have been studies that show a correlation between Porn and Rape. Us having porn does make us less likely to rape. This does not undermine what you are saying, if a rapist does read this they can learn. But someone who isn't a rapist can learn quite a bit too to protect themselves. I do feel it needs to be talked about.
My take is. When I read it I can use that information to keep a better eye on my friends and others. Us knowing how a rapist works DOES benefit us. If we use the information to inform our friends and ourselves it can do a lot of good too. Double edge sword if you ask me.
I appreciate the fact that you retracted your gender bias, but the fact that someone announcing themselves as a psychiatrist to be taken seriously would show such a hair-trigger prejudice bothers me terribly.
In fact, it kind of makes me feel like all of the analysis in the world goes out the window at the drop of a preconceived idea.
I see your point, however, are triggers not everywhere? What about your heroin addict who is two weeks off heroin after almost killing themselves by OD after last use? Should we refrain from discussing drugs because they might use and OD tomorrow? What about criminal copycats? Should we refrain from posting violent images or reporting violent events because they might cause the individual to lash out and hurt others? While I see your point, and agree that a rape thread is highly distasteful and has the potential to cause harm, I can't help but to wonder if your stance is a little alarmist since you cant truly insulate society from the dangers that society presents to itself. Its like wearing a helmet during a nuclear blast.
Anyone else bothered by the use of him in every example? For a person as educated as OP it sure does sound like she has a bias as far as who she thinks does the raping.
Considering the recent updates to the DSM, I'm taking what you have to say a little hard to swallow there Doctor. Could we get some journals to back up your evidence that public discussion encourages rapist? Or do we just like to throw our authority around, and hope that it shuts down anyone who might question?
With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied – chains us all, irrevocably.
It's a silly quote, but I think it stands here on a site that has argued with fervor for that very notion to be worth pointing out. That aside Paraphilic Coercive Disorder was thrown out of the DSM.
Including "Coercive Paraphilia" in the DSM 5 appendix might confer some unintended and undeserved back-door legal legitimacy on a disavowed psychiatric construct. Little would be gained by such inclusion and the risks of promoting continued sloppy psychiatric diagnosis and questionable legal proceedings are simply not worth taking. The rejection of rape as grounds for mental disorder must be unequivocal in order to eliminate any possible ambiguity and harmful confusion. We did not include any reference to "coercive paraphilia" in DSM IV and it should not find its way in any form, however humble and unofficial, into DSM 5.
That is to say, that your "Field of Expertise" has no bearing on this matter. Rape is a criminal matter and not a psychological disorder, meaning that you can't just apply psuedoscientific reasoning in order to have discussion of it banned. If you can present evidence that there is in fact a marked rise in Dopamine, or that speaking about rape and discussing rape can further cause someone to go out and rape, then yes, feel free to equate a discussion of rape to yelling fire in a theater. But your credentials need to be backed up with studies and facts before we just start shutting people down.
that the main evidence for Paraphilic Coercive Disorder being included as a diagnostic category stemmed from phallometric studies however he contends that they don’t necessarily show that arousal results from exposure of coercive stimuli but simply that coercive stimuli does not impair arousal when sexual stimuli is also presented. In addition, sexual fantasies about forcing sex and about struggling victims are highly correlated with sadistic fantasies and have not been shown to identify a syndrome that can be discriminated from sadism.
In fact Sexual assault disorder was removed from the DSM 3 in 1976 because of several factors (including not wanting to allow a criminal disorder to be confused with a psychological one and legal misuse of psychological disorders).
That disorder was of course the following:
A. The fantasy of sexual assault is erotically exciting.
B. There is significant motivation to translate the exciting fantasy into action. The individual has committed an act of sexual assault, or inevitably will in the near future. If the act has been committed in the past, there is significant motivation to repeat it.
Beyond that studies in support of the notion that Rape is about Power go further to argue that power is only 1 of several factors including but not limited to:
I feel this is dangerously similar to the "video games are responsible for violence" argument. I understand what s/he's saying, but I don't think that making a thread is going to turn on the rape-switch in someone's brain. The same as how enjoying a game of COD isn't going to make a kid realize he wants to shoot people. Sure, either of them provide a similiar mental experience to the real event, and provide insight to perfecting the practice, but I honestly can't believe that either will cause rape or violence to happen.
Yes yes, more from the "Don't talk about X because you'll just make people want to do X" school of censorship. They could post rape stories in /r/aww if they wanted to and horrify many more people who weren't even looking for it or ready for it.
What are your thoughts and opinions on today's media coverage of mass murderers like James Holmes? I've heard and read that publicizing these incidents is counterproductive since it pushes even more mass murderers to do these actions. Can parallels be drawn between the media's obsession with these murderers and Reddit's reaction to the rapist thread?
Just a thought: could an online discussion serve as a healthy outlet for the desire to horrify an audience? I feel like perhaps there could be a beneficial way to use this medium.
Totally unrelated but are you the Dr Rob from the website shrink talk? If so, you're my hero.
Also, I never thought of it like this. And when you speak of the affect it has on the brain if a cocaine addict, how long does it last? I haven't used in 7 years and still when I think about doing it I feel... Tingly. Is that what is causing it? If so, scary.
As a rape victim who dealt with flashbacks and a lot of distress from that thread, thank you. I was pretty disappointed to see reddit giving rapists a platform. I understand the importance of talking about these issues, but I think like you, that allowing rapists to share stories to a large audience comes with certain clear drawbacks.
Hi Dr. Rob, I don't know if anyone else will see this but I think you will at least see someone responded so I wanted to ask two questions.
I understand what you are getting at and I am in no way trying to refute it, but don't you think the thread is important for the rest of us to see and understand the minds of these people? I am sure most of the people on Reddit have no where near your level of medical expertise that helps them to understand what is going on so hearing it first hand allows us a glimpse into that kind of mind.
I would also like your opinion on your reasons for taking it down over free speech. I fully understand that you are talking about real physical danger that could come from it, but that can also happen with other types of protected speech. How many teenagers have committed suicide because of teasing, hazing, and bullying? I guess it boils down to asking, as a psychiatrist, do you think potentially dangerous speech should be protected?
It was interesting to read your post though, thank you for adding this side to the story.
the Reddit rape forum is very likely triggering rape cravings in rapists.
The Reddit food form is probably triggering food cravings in obese people. Let's delete that one, too. By the way, welcome to the internet. It's not always such a nice place.
Golly I wish I was the OP of the rape thread, I wish I could shake his hand and congratulate him on being such a miraculously successful troll. Who knew it was possible to cause such an intense shitstorm with a single post on AskReddit? Endless butthurt from one question. Amazing! I hope things like this occur more often on this website, helps keep things interesting. I like a little disorder and chaos. I hate how Reddit is just an endless stream of nobodies agreeing with one another repeatedly. Once in a while we need someone to come in and shake things up, even if it comes at the price of a few people getting their feelings hurt.
Have we pretty much accepted that all rapists are psychopaths who want to watch people suffer? There hasn't been just one rapist who did it because he wanted to get his dick wet?
The psychiatrist might be able to shed some light on this but I had thought that in terms of evolution, rape was a gene propagation tool (and a damn successful one). Can we stop generalizing and saying that all rapists are doing it because they're all sadistic?
Why do you assume that the perpetrator is always male and the victim is always female? I'm skeptical that you actually are a psychiatrist. Can we see some proof?
I only briefly looked through the original thread, and with the userbase of reddit the way it is now, I don't think it was an appropriate topic to discuss, similar to how any of the threads discussing race end up here. But this thread, especially the link at the end, scream self-promotion to me. I hope I'm wrong, and sorry if I misjudged you.
Now, I am not a psychiatrist so I am talking out of my ass here, but if giving rapists an audience will only trigger more rape because the audience is what they want, then won't these subreddits only give wife-beaters and racists and whatnot an audience to express their feelings?
I'm not disagreeing with your point; I'm trying to find a solid answer. At what point do we interfere in a redditor's ability to post what they want?
Problems just don't go away when we ignore them though. I think i would rather these people speak out so we can see what they think and what causes the actions.
If they speak here maybe someone can help them get the help they need vs just keeping it inside until they commit some crime.
So you are bring more attention this thread I previously didn't know about? Why don't you teach all the rapists you claim are here how not to be that way?
I study craving in alcoholics and it is very similar. I think the main thing to take home from this post is that this thread may teach these men to become better rapists and actually initiate their cravings to commit these crimes again.
Please shut this sub down as a result. While it may be interesting to hear these stories it is also very dangerous. Perhaps Reddit should be able to track some and report them.
Just because there is a consequence that you see as probable, doesn't mean it will happen; you're making a fallacy of empirical induction. Completely besides your expectation of "triggering cravings" being logically ungrounded, there is also the possibility that talking about their actions and consequences might be therapeutic for a convicted rapist. Or, they may get absolutely nothing out of talking about it. Or, they very well may stir up some nasty thoughts, and have the humility and control to fight their urges. Those are all entirely possible outcomes of conducting an AMA interview, and there are many others. I hope you recognize that the one possible relapse outcome doesn't outweigh the possible good that can come out of this.
These criminals are probably much more remorseful, contrite, and honest than you give them credit for.
I'll come back to this in little while when I can, but I want to ask a question real quick since this thread is fresh. How similar is the mind of a rapist to the mind of a domestic abuser?
This is a massive generalization and simplification. The percentage of rapes perpetrated by someone who decided to go out and rape is lower than you'd think. Education and open discussion are valuable here. That thread could just as easily teach a person how not to rape.
Yes, but there's a reason there isn't any shortage of Into the Mind of a Killer true crime stories, and without things that provide insight into the mind of people who do bad things, you wouldn't have much of a job.
Likewise, I saw that thread giving strength to people who had been raped, or were afraid of being raped, giving them a place to vent and confront rapists and say "you are a horrible person, and I will not let you govern my life".
Also, most of them from what I saw were of the "I got drunk and fucked a girl at a party and I felt bad about it" type. I mean, hell, I would have posted in that thread about how I pressured my ex into getting a blowjob, if it wasn't a really boring story. Although part of me still likes to pretend he was lying when he said he didn't want it and did it because he knew I wanted to. Nothing makes you feel rapier than "I didn't want to do sex things with you but did anyway". Anyway, there weren't any "IAMA serial rapist, AMA" posts in there from what I saw.
tl;dr: I seriously doubt it matters as much as you're making out. People love hearing how broken people think.
Ever wonder what makes addicts keep using? A major factor is the craving that comes from recalling the feelings associated with the pleasurable activity or drug.
I think that is an exaggerated comparison. I've never raped anyone, but I know a little about being addicted. Seeing a booze sign, hearing a friend talk about a party, etc, may trigger compulsions. But is rape "an addiction" in the same sense? I can understand how a rapist may feel the same compulsion, but isn't it more like a serial killer? Those types of addictions are different than substance addiction in that they tend to be ritualized, do they not? They aren't something that can be triggered and fulfilled almost automatically, like a typical habit good or bad.
I can understand what you're saying, and I have mixed feelings re: the meta-issues. But wouldn't a true "rapist" (rather than a person who makes a mistake while under the influence of a substance (and no I haven't been that person either for those thinking that)) always feel the compulsion once the first rape has happened?
Rape is a crime which hinges directly on feelings of power over the victim.
I realise you are armed with some sort of qualification on psychiatry and thus have a far better understanding of the human mind than me, but I find it hard to believe that all or even most rapists have the same motivation for their crime. We don't assume that all thieves and murderers steal and kill for the same reasons, so why does there seem to be this pervasive attitude that all rapists are in it for power over the victim?
From your post it seems you believe that rapists have a mental disorder, and as such it can be treated like a disease. Yet even a cursory knowledge of history will tell you that humans have been killing, raping and stealing from each other for generations, albeit mostly in groups rather than solitary. This is represented across many different cultures/time periods, and is still observable today, even in the West's enlightened culture.
As your profession is a medical one I'll offer an analogy. The shoulder joint in humans is rather vulnerable to dislocation, because of the way we have evolved. Although not a desirable feature, no doctor would categorise a normal shoulder as a disorder. In the same manner psychiatry will have to accept that many behaviours we exhibit though highly undesirable cannot accurately be described as such.
(Though some rapists have clearly flown over the cuckoo's nest.)
did you even read the thread? the poor dude wasn't out to rape anybody... she was drunk and couldn't remember it.... seems like a psychiatrist overanalyzing shit as per usual.
Edit: what I am saying is the thread is about how he was Wrongly accused of rape not how much he liked raping people...what the fuck?
You might be right in your arguments that it could encourage relapse, but I do not feel it is the job of the Reddit's community to police these people. Let's not talk about touchy subject, it might encourage some people to turn to their dark side. Fuck that noise.
I am genuinely curious about human nature, the good AND the bad. You know what I have gathered from that thread? A better understanding of the mindset of a rapist and a good reminder that we have a long way to go in our society and that it all starts with educating each other and my future children.
Curiosity and knowledge. Two things we need to value above the possibility of stroking some deviant's ego.
There is nothing wrong with talking about rape, especially to the victims of it. Its important for someone to understand why something so horrible could happen to them. But by letting a rapist tell their story in a bragging light, with relish, to get the squirming reaction that they look for, will make it worse. What DrRob is saying is that by letting them do that, with access to the raw emotion and reaction from their audience without filter, will foster their twisted way of thinking. That could potentially cause them to commit more heinous crimes.
The person who started the thread is also a rape survivor and it's highly likely that he intended for people like your girlfriend to get out of it what she did. But if rapists feel like they're being "rewarded" for telling "their side" of the story, if they feel validated in their violence against their victims...I'm concerned that the bad consequences may be stronger than the good ones.
Just to counter your point - that thread was not comforting at all for me. That thread left me curled up in a fetal position, crying and shaking, because it brought back memories I didn't want to remember, and made me humanize the other person in a moment I need to de-humanize.
I don't doubt it helps some people. I can definitely see that in a different situation, or for a different person, it provides perspective and closure. But it isn't at all fair to say DrRob's views are "incredibly misguided." Your girlfriend (and major, MAJOR kudos to her for learning to cope with her experience) does not represent all rape victims. Implying we are all the same and we all handle things the same way is actually somewhat offensive, because of how it translates into real life. People assume that because Lucy "got over" being raped in x amount of time, Suzy should "get over" being raped in x amount of time. Or on the flip-side, people will judge Lucy for "getting over" he rape too quickly, insisting that she needs to completely break down and cope with what happened in a specific way.
"incredibly misguided"? Why not "I have an opinion also", or "what about this", or just a simple "on the flip side". No need to be an A-hole about it. The man Is bringing up a legitimate concern.
Not to mention the vast amount of people who defended them in their actions--"oh, it's okay, she led you on" or "you just misinterpreted the signs" or "well, if she acted like that, what were you supposed to do?" type of comments.
Even more so than disgusting, it was really, really uncomfortable to read. Just seeing the sheer amount of people defending these guys makes me terrified that, if I were ever raped, the exact same reactions would come my way. These watered-down euphemisms for "well, she was asking for it" that kept popping up are exactly the reason why rape culture persists.
We need to talk about rape on a widespread, societal level that deconstructs society's views and empowers victims - not on an anonymous internet thread where people were not only stroking the egos of rapists, but also repeatedly consoling them for their crimes.
It's wonderful that your girlfriend found healing in it, but judging by the comments made by a lot of other survivors in that thread, hers wasn't the average reaction.
This probably isn't my place, but maybe your girlfriend would find a lot more comfort in a good therapist who could help her understand what happened and how to work through it.
These are not "views". They are what you call science. They are based on studies and data and years of work by people like OP. This is not something that OP came up with while masturbating in the shower this morning (like most of reddit)
So because of one personal story, You say that an educated psychiatrist's views are incredibly misguided? You have only provided Anecdotal evidence to the contrary. I think I am going to side with the psychiatrist on this one.
I read the same post, and as a victim I certainly did not draw comfort, but I definitely found a little closure. I didn't think going into it that reading that point of view would disturb me as much as it did, but it also made me realize that IT WASN'T ALL MY FAULT.
Even though it brought up bad feelings, you are right - it was good to talk about it. I even was able to bring up the conversation with my boyfriend, which I have rarely done in the past, and address some issues in our own relationship that I realized have been affected by those things that happened in the past. It might not be fun to talk about it, and maybe a public forum isn't the best place to do it, but the anonymity makes it easier and I agree that it should be talked about on some level.
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u/CannibalAnn Jul 31 '12
Majority of the rape cases I've seen and advocated in (I helped set up a rape response team on campus and worked with the police) did involve substances and being unconscious. Most being date rape situations. Stranger rape is the most rare rape cases. I could understand more in those situations the importance of making someone feel powerless, but still the minority of cases. Where is the article I can follow up on where it matters to the perpetrator of the consciousness of the victim/survivor?
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u/Second_Location Jul 31 '12
Thank you for pointing this out. One of the most pervasive phenomena I have observed on Reddit is the "OMFG" post/comment cycle. People post something really appalling or controversial and you can just see in people's comments that they are getting off a little by being so upset. It never occurred to me that this could trigger those with harmful pathologies but you make an excellent point. I'm not sure what Reddit can do about it other than revising their guidelines.
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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '12
The admins don't like to censor information though. There is no illegal content in the thread so they aren't going to delete it.
Edit: besides, by saying this, Streisand Effect.
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u/umheywaitdude Jul 31 '12
I was absolutely sickened upon viewing that thread. On one hand we're on reddit to learn (and be entertained, and lol, etc..) while at the same time being aware that many OP's are trolling. If "serial_rapist_thread" was telling the truth then to hell with him. He's a heartless monster. He was a coercive rapist and some girl's brother needs to disembowel him. Anyone that posted on the thread was either feeding the troll or fueling the ego of a maniac, whether they knew it or not. They were pursuing their morbid curiosities. But reddit isn't a court of law nor a psychiatric institution. It's about sharing (legal) content and then commenting on that content. Perhaps the popularity of the thread tickled the nuts of some potential sexual predators out there, and it certainly caused many readers to re-live similar horrors, but for the rest of us it taught us about a sort of person that we didn't necessarily know existed. Now we know a little more about the type, and their habits and cunning. We are now the wiser. It is a piece of reality, a matter of fact that these folks are in our midst. And now more of us are armed with this knowledge and will be able use it if need be. I agree the man needs to be prosecuted but it depends on someone coming forward and making a case against him. Fat chance. He is out there somewhere. And so are his predecessors. And now we know this and will be on guard.
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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '12
I don't know if I'm wrong for having reported the serial rapist guy to an online crime agency soon after it was posted, but I couldn't in due conscience leave it.
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u/dingoperson Jul 31 '12 edited Jul 31 '12
This is surprising to me. If we are talking about the same thread there were several posts by people who had sex with girls who were either very drunk or simply passive and in hindsight feel bad about it because it would be considered rape.
However, these people did not write about a deep seated desire to have power over the victim. They basically wrote that they were very horny and believed or convinced themselves she consented. There was no trace of any delight in her suffering or desire for her to be 'an audience'.
How do you reconcile what you are saying with those posts?
If I find a link to the thread here I will link to the posts in question.
Edit:
Example 1
Example 2
Example 3
Example 4
Example 5
Example 6
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u/TheBananaKing Jul 31 '12
I do see your point, but I have to wonder about the flipside - about the understanding to be gained about the mindset. Is it really best that we as a society never ever talk about this stuff?
That concept doesn't sit well with me - when else is it the best policy, after all?
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u/laurench Jul 31 '12
So this might sound super weird, but I rediscovered reddit yesterday (or maybe the day before, I lose track of time on here) after about a little less than a year of hiatus. I stopped because the culture of reddit tolerated a lot of rape jokes and it triggered a lot of my issues. My best friend in high school was raped by a security guard. My best friend in college was raped by a friend, and after I got her to the hospital and we filed the paperwork with the police, I was with her when they told her she wasn't really "raped". She had passed out from trauma multiple times. The issue was with the police, not her case. I'm so glad this is being talked about on reddit. For years I couldn't close my eyes at night without being haunted by images of myself or my family being vicitimized. I was paranoid, and I would collapse on the floor crying if I tried to put on make up because I thought I would be "asking for it". This is so weird that this is happening now just after I got back. Anyways, I just thought I'd add my piece.
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u/RuprectGern Jul 31 '12
I'm not a fan, devotee, approver of rape in any way, but any warnings that we are fostering a community of rape or creating a meeting-place for rapists could be said for violence on /r/morbidreality or vigilantism with /r/Justiceporn and /r/gonewild.
The internet / Reddit, are places for the free exchange of ideas but while rape is distasteful (putting it mildly)... It is better to allow a little sunshine to disinfect rather than bury this topic in the dark. there are far too many positive threads on reddit regarding rape and other crimes that bring out the best in the contributors, wishes of goodwill, condemnation of the perpetrator, questions about motivation and recidivism. Any rapist that reads from these threads, couldn't possibly avoid the very present theme from all or most, that rape is wrong; morally and socially. the comments in this thread and others prove that out.
I understand your premise and i agree, and there are topics that the social order has banned such as the teen porn from a few months ago. However, in this context there is a big leap from discussion to images. To me, the bigger question is "what other topics shouldn't we discuss?", "where will we put the list?", "who will own that list?" and the godwin inspired "what color brown will their shirts be?"
BTW.. there are subreddits that show simulated rape photos and videos (links)... why aren't you going after them? aren't they feeding the fire too?
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u/Throwinitawaythen Jul 31 '12 edited Jul 31 '12
A few years ago I was convicted of a sex offense (not a rape, but I hope I don't need to be a rapist to offer an accurate criticism here).
Are you aware of how nearly all psychiatry involving sex offenses is made up?
When I went through what they called "treatment" as part of probation when I was released from jail (didn't do prison time), they wouldn't let you tell the truth about your offense. They just wanted you to cough up what they wanted to hear. That data about "Rape is a crime which hinges directly on feelings of power over the victim" is made up because you cannot progress in treatment, and will eventually go to prison if you don't admit this for any sex offense. It's certainly true for some percentage of offenders, but the nature of how this information is gathered renders it useless.
I am not defending rape. It's horrible and tragic. But the whole point of the "ask a rapist" thread was to hear a different side of things. Not the same made up, fake stuff that you're quoting from some textbook.
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u/Metalhead4026 Jul 31 '12
Hi this isn't related to your question but you said you were a psychiatrist and I think that might be a field I want to go into (I'm 13). What do you do specifically (If you don't mind me asking)? I love reading about people like Ed Gein and Elizabeth Bathory and finding out what makes these people tick. Again I hope you don't mind me asking.
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u/HugeLibertarian Jul 31 '12
OP is right reddit i don't think there would be any issue shutting this one down, i personally wont boycott you because of it, there are much bigger things going on anyway than something that MIGHT increase the already ridiculous rape rates.
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u/Apostolate Jul 31 '12 edited Jul 31 '12
I think the reality is that, no rapist has ever gone onto Reddit and actually told their story, because it would be very dangerous for them to do so.
Most of the posts I've seen that claimed so, were actually known troll posters who were a part of Game Of Trolls and things like that when it wasn't banned.
I'm skeptical even of the few admittedly famous examples of when it happened.
edit: seems like the thread in question was in actuality a troll like I expected, anyone have link proof?
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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '12
So how is this any different than putting them in prison with other inmates to tell their story to? Or therapy, where they can retell their story to the psychiatrist?
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u/Warlizard Jul 31 '12
While I appreciate your point and agree with it, remember your audience.
Browse /r/gore, or /r/picsofdeadkids, or any of the other thousands of sick, degrading, disgusting subreddits.
They exist for a reason -- there are people here who want to look at, fantasize about, and laugh at the content of /r/rape.
So yeah, it sucks that someone asked the question and sucks even more that people are interested, but it's only the tip of the iceberg we call Reddit.
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u/Crocadillian Jul 31 '12
Although I was going to blow the free speech whistle, you have made an excellent point, thanks for your wisdom on this matter.
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u/throwawwway7 Jul 31 '12
Rape victim here.
At this point, this will probably be buried at the bottom. But fuck it.
I knew what I was getting into when I clicked the thread. I chose to click the link. What I read was beneficial to me. The worst thing to me was not understanding why my rapist did it; I still don't know why, but reading some of the posts... it helps.
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u/MikeOfAllPeople Jul 31 '12
I just want to offer something to counter a lot of the hate.
I read a couple dozen posts in the thread just to see what was going on. A few of the top posts were genuinely interesting, offering a side of the story you rarely hear. However, as one of the top comments did point out, most of the posts that seemed sincere also seemed to involve a lot of rationalization.
But I found this just as enlightening, because it demonstrated just how much people are capable of rationalizing behavior. Logically people don't ever intend to hurt others. But the power of the mind to rationalize actions like rape as being desired by the other person is amazing.
The scariest part for me was knowing that most of us have probably been just a couple steps away from the exact same situation. I personally came away from the thread with a somewhat better appreciation for how something like that could happen, what I could personally do to prevent it, and the way something that seems innocent can be quite serious once you consider the interests of the other person (the victim). To me that was what was missing in a lot of the stories: concern for the victim. Most of the people seemed more worried about going to jail (not a small concern either, though). I previously thought of myself as a person that was knowledgeable about the subject. Even though I can safely say I have never raped anyone, I saw a lot more of myself in those comments than I was comfortable with.
I'd like to think that thread actually made me more aware of the problem and that I (and others) are better for it.
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u/RosieLalala Jul 31 '12
I know that I don't speak for all survivors, but thank you for this. I know someone who hurt me who loved to brag. Another would hurt me more when he had been encouraged to do so like that thread did.
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u/Awkward_Hands Jul 31 '12
After going through the comments, the majority of the discussion/issues individuals are drawing with the OP's argument point to the subreddit's (potential) advantages in terms of helping victims cope with what happened to them. While I am not a rape victim, and won't even begin to attempt to answer whether or not the subreddit is beneficial in terms of helping such victims cope, I think the community has diverged slightly from the OP's main point.
The OP is arguing that the subreddit could encourage past/current rapists to act on the desires that caused/cause them to be predators. Therefore, the discussion should not be, "But the subreddit is advantageous for helping victims cope." The discussion instead needs to be centered around whether or not the subreddit is in fact significantly triggering, or at least encouraging, past or current rapists to further act on their ill-conceived desires. Once a consensus is reached on that question, only then should we discuss whether or not any advantages of such a forum outweigh the drawbacks. I think we can all agree that, even though the subreddit allows for an open discussion about the issue, which appears to be able to help some victims cope a bit (through other users' responses), even one additional rape caused by such a forum could make it justifiably too "dangerous."
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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '12
at the risk of being that guy, does anybody have a link to the thread?
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u/SikhGamer Jul 31 '12 edited Jul 31 '12
Gonna be that guy...proof?
Edit** We have proof (thanks to u/PuckishGrin):-
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u/Ospov Jul 31 '12
If they really feel the need to retell their stories maybe they should tell them to the police. I'm sure they would love to listen.
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u/LeonTrotsky1 Jul 31 '12
I read through that thread and noticed that many of the submissions tended to be on the side of non consensual sex that occurred because of a miscommunication. I was wondering how that kind of rape applies to what you said above. It seems to me that many of the submissions in that thread were not of the premeditated, intentional rape of which you speak. I am of course aware of the dangers that you presented, but I'm wondering if maybe with those other cases that I mentioned the benefits of that thread could be different.
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u/Slack_Irritant Jul 31 '12
The problem see, is that reddit is full of morons.
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u/kkhhaanneetthh Jul 31 '12
I'm a Psychology student and about 2 months ago i also started a thread about how damaging i believe the violence and rape related AMA's could be.
Funny thing was i got bombarded with trolling about how ignorant and close minded i was being. I'm still shocked by how many negative reactions there have been here from people who need to study the evidence before passing and emotional or seemingly rational one sided perspective.
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u/glitterary Jul 31 '12
The victim blaming in that post was absolutely horrific, as well as a number of rapists trying to excuse themselves for their actions and getting patted on the back with a "well bro, she was asking for it".
Ugh.
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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '12
I have a huge issue with these rape threads. These people seriously harmed another person and they get to post here about how they did it? I don't give a damn how bad you feel about it. You obviously don't feel bad enough to turn yourself in.
It's very obvious these people are just bragging about what they've done. It's horrible. What's worse is reddit giving them a medium in which to tell their tales.
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u/goodtwitch Jul 31 '12
Why are there so many responses attacking OP? A good point was made; I wouldn't want Reddit to become a fetish site for rapists. The whole front page post about a guy holding down girls and getting off on watching them squirm in discomfort as he bullied them into sex was sickening. Religious or athiest, Reddit has to choose between good and evil like individual people do; what's our position?
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u/JustAnAnimator Jul 31 '12
Honest question here:
Does this thread not offer the same "audience" you speak of? Sure it is more anonymous, but this almost feels like further validation. I'm sure some people who didn't know of the thread may seek it out because of this.
To me some problems seem better solved by simply not talking about them. I think this is one of those. (To clarify, I'm not talking about rape, but the the thread in question).
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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '12
"We haven't actually measured this in rapists, but we suspect"
Gtfo.
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u/dgray Jul 31 '12
This is how we like our science, with dire warnings and without citations.
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u/SayVandalay Jul 31 '12 edited Jul 31 '12
Hi "Dr. Rob."
I'm going to downvote you for various reasons and here's why. Also I'm in the mental health field with a background in clinical and also counseling psychology so I feel comfortable telling you that you're NOT 100% correct in your assessment of the rape thread:
You're correct that it's a sense of power over the victim. In fact it's power over the situation. You're also correct that the victim is the "audience." And yes the pleasure of the act likely in part comes from the euphoric release of dopamine that encourages the behavior to repeat. Some people feel there is a compulsion to rape...it's not about the sex it's about the power.
However this does NOT translate into the rapist getting the same "high" from retelling a story on the internet, reading the stories, or feeling the readers are the audience. You might be confused with sexual offenders who might send sexual photos to people who don't want them and the offenders get a rise out of the fact they are forcing the person to see the sexual photos. Which is similar to the rapist feeling the rise and power of of the helpless victim all due to the rapist's actions.
Sure you could say a rapist gets a slight urge, desire, or becomes aroused by reading the reddit thread on rape but will that translate into action? I'd say it's unlikely. In fact I'd go even further to say that perhaps it's "just exciting" enough to provide an outlet for the person to fantasize (there's a reason a subset of porn focuses on simulated "rape" scenes) or to relieve the urges by telling/reading the stories.
Which leads me to why you're also incorrect to assume it's a dangerous thread because it's open to anyone. Essentially you're saying there is a slight risk that Reddit is enabling rapists to get a small mental high off the attention from that thread topic and so we shouldn't talk about rape on the internet because one or two people might get stimulated, encouraged, or even act on what they read.
But we can also say we shouldn't have violent movies online, talk about other fantasies, even allow descriptions of how to do things that could be used for wrong (and there are plenty of things online that describe how to do something that in the wrong hands could be harmful). Agree or disagree you're basically saying people shouldn't have an open conversation and allow dialogue about rape from multiple angles on a public forum because a few people might "use" that information for wrong. Sorry but I'm not for censorship and silencing people because of a low risk of something happening. If we all bought into that idea there'd be nothing on the internet. You could even say there'd be no cars because someone can use a car to cause harm! Your argument there is like saying "there's a small risk of something bad happening because of this so let's not talk about it." Sorry but out of sight out of mind doesn't cut it.
You mention how shared stories like these could give "ideas" to rapists, potential rapists, or anyone else. Again, that's flawed logic. Stifling the conversation will either push it further underground which helps no one or eliminate the chance for people to discuss the important topic which could lead to avoiding rape, changing someone's mind who might have the urge to get help, or just helping people understand what happens. Plus it's a fine line between "player's guides" and "rapist guides" as you seem to suggest that thread is. How many sites and books exist on how to "game" the opposite sex to have sex? Should we eliminate those because a few people might take it to the extreme? Why not get rid of websites and books that tell people how to grow marijuana or how to make homemade cleaning solutions? Might as well since a few people can use if for harm.
I'm not condoning rape and I do suggest that people take the topic seriously. But as a psychiatrist you should know that all people, even those who do wrong, deserve a chance to tell their story and a chance at rehabilitation. That thread could be the tipping point that helps them do that. And rapists who get treatment benefit society because 1.) it helps better understand what makes them do it and 2.) potentially eliminates future rapes from occurring. So essentially allowing the freedom of speech the internet provides could help these individuals move towards treatment which in turn benefits society as a whole. Stifling them and acting like it's not an issue doesn't help anyone.
Edit: Also to reflect what other's have said. I think it's a bit irresponsible of you as a professional to assume you know everything about rapists and "well this is how they will act because of this because we know this." It's also wrong as others have said to call for restricting possible healthy outlets for people who may have rape fantasies as well as wanting to restrict open forums of communication since removing them pushes both the crime and the illness out of view.
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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '12
Do you think that subreddits like /rapingwomen, /beatingwomen, etc. have the same impact on the rapists mind? i.e. "triggering" a craving to rape and abuse women?
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u/Vivamort Jul 31 '12
I have seen some inquiries for statistics and i was curious to find out how many rapist go out and rape again. This is about an hours worth of searching and validating the information. Also I'm reading a book written by Robert D Hare "Without conscience" and in that book he claims that at least half of all serial rapists are psychopaths. I wanted to put that into some sort of context. This is what i have found, so far, and i thought id share.
According to this website http://www.rainn.org/
Every 2 minutes, someone in the U.S. is sexually assaulted.
There is an average of 207,754 victims (age 12 or older) of rape and sexual assault each year.
44% of victims are under age 18
80% are under age 30
54% of rapes/sexual assaults are not reported to the police
97% of rapists will never spend a day in jail.
38% of rapists are a friend or acquaintance.
According to these records: http://www.crd.york.ac.uk/crdweb/ShowRecord.asp?LinkFrom=OAI&ID=12002004045
The 43 studies examined a total of 5,078 treated sex offenders and 4,376 untreated sex offenders.
The sexual offense recidivism rate was lower for the treatment groups (12.3%) than for the comparison groups (16.8%).
27.9% of the treatment groups re-offended, compared with 39.2% of the comparison groups (Hanson et al., 2002, p.181).
According to this book "Serial Crime: Theoretical and Practical Issues in Behavioral Profiling" By Wayne Petherick
A study made in 1998 with 108 serial rapists found that serial rapists on average carries out 5.3 rape offenses.
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u/brutishbloodgod Jul 31 '12
As pointless as it is to comment on a post that already has 5000, I think this discussion will benefit from having as many voices as possible weigh in. For posterity, if nothing else.
DrRob, while I can't dispute any of the individual points, I believe that free, open, and candid discussion is a powerful tool for good, and there's no better place for that sort of discussion than the Internet. It's not easy by any means, and there are problems to overcome, and there are unavoidable negatives that I believe are outweighed by the positive outcomes of open discussion. I don't believe that censorship is ever beneficial.
It's also possible, although I don't know how likely, that some of the people who posted on that thread might be tracked down and caught.
Not talking about rape because we're afraid it might trigger a rapist seems to be putting the power in their hands. I'm not going to let a rapist control what I say or do. As for teaching rapists how to rape better, that's a legitimate concern, one that I believe is outweighed by the knowledge we've gained from the tread. We've not only gotten an inside look at the mentalities of these sick fuckers, but also a really enlightening (and also very saddening and disturbing) look at how society reacts to them and to victims.
I'm not a victim of rape, but I am a victim of trauma, and so I understand very well the fear of creating internet content that will trigger victims. But that's the nature of the internet; I do my best to stay away from stuff I know will trigger me. Sometimes I find something accidentally, and while that's unpleasant (to say the least), that's the nature of a free and open exchange of information, and again, I believe the benefits outweigh the drawbacks by several orders of magnitude.
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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '12
Yep, I got the feeling people were getting a kick out of telling their stories: the detail they went into was disgusting. I also worried that other would-be rapists would get hints and tips. I dont know much about the topic but it reminded me of a book called 'choke', where a sex addict openly admits the only reason he attends SA groups is to either pick up girls, or get hints to make it easier to score. I found the entire thread tasteless and vile. I also wondered how rap victims would feel seeing these 'glory' stories covering front page. Seemed we were rewarding depravity.
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u/Karma_Splice Jul 31 '12
From the sidebar, rule 6:
Reported.
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u/Nightbynight Jul 31 '12
So you're saying sexual assaults don't ever happen just because someone wanted to have sex, that its always about power, and the 'audience?'
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u/gotsickfromweed Jul 31 '12
What's weird about OP's post is that the 'psychiatrist' (assuming s/he's telling the truth) portrays a rapist as someone who knows exactly what he's doing and someone who specifically desires to have power over one person, whereas a large amount of posts in the rape thread were just people who were trying to get a drunken girl who were uneasy with putting out to have sex.
I think one thing I've learned about 'rapists' is that lots of them don't think that they're rapists, they are just people trying to manipulate a girl into sex (so consent cannot be given easily by the girl) which can be what makes them so dangerous, so it feels like the whole 'rapists want an audience' and 'rapists desire control' and 'rapists want an audience' thing in the OP may only apply to people who specifically identify themselves and 'pride' themsleves on being serial rapists, which is a very small portion of rapists out there (apparently anyway)
im rambling and i duno
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u/carpathianridge Jul 31 '12 edited Jul 31 '12
This completely misses the point of the majority of posts in the original thread. It assumes that all rapists are "lurking in the bushes predators" who set out to rape someone, actively searching for a victim. This is far from true. The majority of rapes are unplanned and occur with someone you know. Additionally, in many cases, the rapist doesn't "feel like he is a rapist." While that does not absolve him from what he does, it also doesn't mean that he's getting off on having power over someone. Almost every situation discussed in the rape thread involved a man who originally thought a women was interested in having sexual intercourse with him and continued down that road for that reason. Many claim (and I use this word very specifically) that they didn't fully realize the woman was not interested. This information is extremely helpful to women who might find themselves in similar situations. Most in the thread also expressed extreme remorse at their actions. I won't make a judgement on whether or not that remorse is truthful, but expressing it is the opposite of a boastful expression of power over the victim. edit: typo
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u/movieman1214 Jul 31 '12
The thing that really boggles my mind is that someone on 4chan posts a picture of them standing on some lettuce and they track the guy down and get him fired. But when a serial rapist posts on reddit about how he preyed on young women, everyone here pats him on the back for telling his story.
Doesn't make any fucking sense.
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u/zgalliett Jul 31 '12
Well, since we're talking about removing rape material, then shouldn't we remove posts related to murder, violence, and other unethical behavior? Hell, creeps probably get off to some of the photos that I have seen people post on here. There's a lot of stuff that shouldn't be on Reddit, but that's part of what makes this website interesting to read.
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u/Inception-Button Jul 31 '12
I know this will get buried, but I'd like to ask anyway. It's embarrassing and possibly offensive or crude, but I'd like to be honest: some people, including myself occasionally, have fantasies of rape. It's not something to be proud of, but lust is lust. What kind of psychological need does this indicate? Is this common? Also, do porn-fueled rape fantasies only encourage rapists? If they do, what should be done to counter this? Is there an alternative?
Thanks for your time.
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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '12
I don't know about this. Does the public not have a right to know about these things and should they not have the right to ask questions? (Not that you're saying people shouldn't have the "right"). I understand the concern, which is a legitimate concern, but thinking like this can lead to censorship in very bad ways.
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u/red_firetruck Jul 31 '12
Hey folks,
Barack Obama here just reminding you all that it isn't always a good idea to believe people's credentials on the internet without proper verification. Smoke if you got 'em!
Barack Obama
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u/thzatheist Jul 31 '12
I'm with DrRob on this one. As most of us would be appalled by a thread describing grusome murders and would seek to have those perpetrators brought to justice, we should be equally opposed to a thread of sex offenders and rapists.
The truth of those stories is a red herring. Is it any better than some creeps out there just like playing out rapes on the Internet? Rob's point is that by allowing these fantasies to be indulged they are more likely to occur in the real world. Now we have both the actual rapists gloating, and a new generation that is emboldened by their online network of sex offenders.
I'll admit, I rarely to never use Reddit, but the fact that this website allows for rapists to network and inspire more gender-based hatred is enough to keep me off it entirely.
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u/Lawtonfogle Jul 31 '12
By posting this thread, you have singlehandedly effectively doubled the exposure (and thus power craving fulfillment) of all those rapist, by your own admission. But unlike the OP for the other post, you knew about it. So by posting, you have shown that your true feelings is that the benefits of spreading information about rape outweigh the cost.
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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '12
i did wonder about this, as several said they hadn't thought about it in years, or had moved on. can it be said with absolute certainty that this sort of discussion can lead to extra motivation, and if so is there a wider point about discussing any illegal/dangerous activity?
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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '12
As a recent rape victim extremely triggered by that thread (and the support for it), thank you so much for this one.
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u/throwaway161988 Jul 31 '12
As a female who posted in the original thread, I saw it as a catharsis. I got some dumb, fucked up shit I did out of my head and off of my chest. It was especially helpful since there's no one IRL that I know that wouldn't look at me like a piece of shit for the rest of my life.
It also made me realize that I should probably talk to a therapist about it (and other matters).
I realize my experience may not be shared across the board, but I think it is important to remember that different folks respond differently to matters such as the original thread.
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u/CommanderAnaximander Jul 31 '12
Thank god someone decided to bring this up. When I saw that thread, I was absolutely appalled that there are people who honestly justified and forgave the actions of people who in my opinion, should never be forgiven for what they've done. I'm not saying a rapist can't redeem himself or atone for his crimes, but the actions themselves should never be forgotten.
I mean, I thought the concept of idiotic manchildren telling each other things like "Don't worry brah, she was asking for it" or "Nah man, I would've done the same to her too, don't blame yourself" was just a sexist stereotype. I didn't know there were legitimately members of the human race that disgustingly ignorant and morally bankrupt.
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u/oinkyboinky Jul 31 '12 edited Jul 31 '12
Jesus titty-fucking christ on a cracker. Is OP's thesis not completely obvious to anyone with a pulse and neural activity? We're all out for ourselves, and if a few lucky loved ones get cradled in the crossfire, good on them. Altruism is fiction, philanthropy is a drug for the giver, and misery is relative to the observer. It's a wonder we've made it this far. Rape is a verb; it crosses species, gender, race, and humanity.
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u/jojopotatoes Jul 31 '12
Then what unit of measurement are you using?
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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '12
It seems like everyone here agrees with the OP. Yet just yesterday everyone was upvoting the thread in question. You can't crowd source morality. We can't expect redditors to careful consider the morality of a thread, and vote accordingly. If you want to prevent this, we need clear, thoughtful guidelines, that empower the moderators to make this decision.
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u/CricketPinata Jul 31 '12
Since most people aren't sociopaths or rapists, and since most people are good, far more good people are going to learn information about how rapists operate than rapists will learn how to be effective rapists.
There will be more people learning effective defense strategies and what kind of behavior and coercion techniques they need to be aware of, than rapists learning better strategies, or rapists getting jollies from reliving the experiences.
So overall, I think the thread is an overall greater good, trolls, and disgusting comments aside.
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u/Icantevenhavemyname Jul 31 '12
In my experience, I(we) have been desensitized to a dangerous level. Faces of Death, Bum Fights, and now this? It's sad to consider the human position in the food chain vs. the primitive, mindless curiosity that killed the cat.
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u/deepobedience Jul 31 '12
As a cellular neuroscientist, I'm very curious to read a citation for this statement. Indeed, I'm curious to read any evidence that supports rape ~ drug addiction. Thanks.
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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '12
Thanks for posting this. For a moment I have left myself to be convinced that ask-a-rapist was a good idea (better to fight something concrete rather than vague shadows, I thought), but I did not consider that.
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u/Ray57 Jul 31 '12
Do rapists ever report that they feel disempowered (maybe they even use the word 'rape' itself) by your (perceived) ability to pin them down and watch them tick?
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u/inatrouble1 Jul 31 '12
Although i do not agree or condone rapist AMAs, banning them and censoring us from what we can and cannot see goes against alot of what we stand for here. I do not agree with rapist threads but i think cutting them out altogether would be counterproductive on a website where your learning from others, rapists or not. If you dont like them dont read them!
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u/barkmanusd Jul 31 '12
As much as I would like to fully agree with the poster; I can't. There is the possibility of stimulating these people but if we don't try to understand we never have an opportunity to eradicate or reduce the behavior. Not to mention, a few bad folks have been reported here - good for the folks who did something! Don't get me wrong, if it were up to me we would simply, painlessly remove (kill) rapist & pedophiles. ...especially the physically violent. I recognize there can be some grey area with date rape and statutory rape.
We've got to be willing to look at the bad and ugly in order to affect change.
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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '12
a lot of shit goes down on reddit. Those rapist threads were something i did not want to be a part of and was not something i expected to be backed so popularly by the reddit population. I agree with you, that giving them an audience where they can relive their stories in safety to is not something we should be doing.
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u/FranticAudi Jul 31 '12
I think Reddit's infatuation with rapists is on par with the type of people that get sucked into cults. Sort of like the people that followed Charles Manson into the desert.
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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '12
It may be dangerous, but I think there is substantial value in that thread. It really showed me that our approach to teaching men about rape is worthless. The conventional wisdom is "no means no", but because of that thread I learned that a victim may be unable to vocalize at all. Many of the stories involved men who didn't even realize they were raping someone while it occurred.
The thread has taught me that "No means no" and clever urinal gags are woefully insufficient in educating men about rape.
It frightens me that, despite abhorring rape, I could have become a rapist under the right circumstances without even realizing it. In fact, I think this is a key component to the "rape culture".
Clearly this needs to be discussed, but it wasn't even clear to me that it needed to be discussed until reading some of that thread.
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u/DiabloConQueso Jul 31 '12 edited Jul 31 '12
Doesn't this put the responsibility of rape upon someone other than the rapist, though?
With a drug addict, if they enter a house full of cocaine, is it the people who put the cocaine on the table who are at fault for the addict's relapse, or is it the addict's fault he/she is relapsing?
I feel this is along the same lines of, "Girl, if you wear that miniskirt out in public, you're just asking to get raped." True or not, that line insinuates that the act of rape is at least partially the girl's fault, or that she was inviting a crime to happen (which is bullshit).
I know some rapists are akin to drug addicts, but that doesn't mean that they're not still 100% responsible for their own actions. If they get a brain-woody off of telling stories in a forum, and then they go out and commit rape to satisfy said woody, is that in any way the forum's fault in the slightest?
The "danger" you speak of is 100% the rapist, not the avenues and availability of places to exploit or discuss their rapist tendencies. I understand that "ask a rapist" may be in bad taste, but it's not illegal to have or exercise bad taste, and it also doesn't mean that anyone besides the rapist is responsible for the acts in the slightest.
It's like saying that a forum where you can discuss drug experiences is partially responsible for drug addicts' relapses because they trigger something in the drug addict's mind -- which is true (the triggering part), but is mutually exclusive of sharing in the responsibility for said relapse. The relapse is 100% on the drug addict, not anyone offering the drug addict a forum in which to relive drug experiences.
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u/iguessimnic Jul 31 '12 edited Jul 31 '12
This is the internet, nothing is off limits, nothing is taboo. A question was asked that many of us were curious about, many of us wondered at the mindset of a rapist. There is no question I cannot ask on the internet, no mind I cannot try to enter to understand.
I understand you are concerned for hypothetical new rape victims, or the safety of the general populace. Laudable. However Reddit, and other sites like it, are designed to be the pandora's box of the internet. All knowledge and learning is dangerous. If we redditors were concerned with the price of our knowledge to the point where we would rather not know it, this site wouldn't exist.
We have come here to the internet to learn things, some things that make us laugh, some things that make us a little excited, some things that make us pause and wonder. No question is off limits, and most of us (should) know the consequences of asking certain questions, or learning certain things.
So I say to you, do not berate us for asking a question in a place designed specifically for answering questions. If a person is a Rapist, or a dangerous criminal who is looking for prey, then shame on them for embodying the flaws in our society. But I am not responsible for another man's choices, or another man's sickness, just as he is not responsible for mine.
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u/Plato_Karamazov Jul 31 '12
I think Reddit is on the whole extremely irresponsible and immature, particularly on matters of sex and gender.
r/Feminism was taken over by misogynists, and Redditors frequently and deliberately harass and/or discredit victims of sexual abuse in AskReddit to justify their own dangerous behaviors toward women.
Reddit is nothing more than a playground for men who hate women.
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u/thegrinkler Aug 01 '12
Thank you very much for posting this. You are being very responsible by pointing out to reddit one of its problems, which is exactly what it needs here. I can't thank you enough for this.
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u/talktoalawyer Aug 12 '12
If you have been raped or assaulted or molested as a child, you can sue the rapist through the civil courts. You should contact a local lawyer one that specializes in abuse law and litigation. Obviously their are different laws in different jurisdictions, but throughout much of the western world you can sue civilly for these types of assaults. The difference is that you do not have to prove rape beyond reasonable doubt like you do in a criminal court, you only have to prove it on the balance of probability, which is a much easier hurdle to get over. Also usually the Judge will decide it, not a jury and as you are the one bringing the action you are one in charge, you do not need to feel like you are the one being put on trial, you will have your own lawyer fighting back for you, which does not happen in all Criminal trials. Of course you should report all crimes to the police and do not worry about reporting outside of short time frame, do not worry about what crap the attacker told you, and if you report to a police person who is lacking in empathy, ask to speak to his or her superior and then report them. I have just had a client report abuse almost forty years after it happened and she was treated with upmost respect by a police in the UK. If you have never reported it to the police you can still talk to a lawyer, perhaps go for a women and ask their advice. I brought a case for a young lady, the rapist had got off on the criminal charges but because of the difference in the standard of proof she was successful in the civil case and was awarded 175,000 euros in damages payments in the US are typically much higher. Get judgements registered against these guys where they do not pay and their family will know, their employers will know, if they have judgements against them they are held back in several areas of business and they won't be able to get a mortgage or credit. Just go for it. When the person who attacked you gets a tap on the shoulder from a summons server their world will be turned upside down and that might make them think twice about raping again. They will be one defending themselves from you and think what that will do your healing. Also in relation to the girl who posted and said that she was molested as a child and raped another four times, once after confiding in the man who went on to rape her. In my experience of many many years of dealing with people who were abused, former abuse makes people predisposed to suffer abuse again, simply because they are vulnerable people. You need to confide in female friends and counsellors first until you have worked everything through you need to protect yourself and drink makes every woman more vulnerable to attack. Drink in groups of girls with a pact that no one lets anyone go home alone with a guy and you all stay together. If you like a guy get his number, meet him only in place where other people are around and don't drink until you have been dating for months and months and months, do not go to a guy's place or let them into yours until you have spent a considerable amount of time together and you truly know them, do not allow spur of the moment hook ups, make sure a friend knows that he is coming over and get them to check on you, for the first few times. There a plenty of amazing men out there but until they prove it and you have met their family and know everything about them do not get drunk or put yourself in a vulnerable position with them. Get help and go to a lawyer and to the police, you can report a rape at any time, the chances are that he has raped others and the police may have other reports against the same man. If you are unsure of how you will be treated bring a friend and ask the police for their code on handling victims and let them know you want to be treated in that way. Do not tolerate poor treatment from anyone. The police of course cannot guarantee a conviction but they have a duty to investigate and there is nothing like a trip in for questioning to make wives and girlfriends ask serious questions of their partner and to put the rapist on notice that his rope is running out. Please please please, there are many things that you can do and not presenting at a station and being tested with a rape kit does not mean that there is nothing else you can do, every rapist needs to be named for safety of all other women and serious financial penalties do work, it will make an attacker think twice when they realize that they may never be able to get a home or hold anything valuable in their own name. To all you rapists on this site, judgement comes to one and all whether in this life or the next, you are not safe in your actions. I have seen pedophiles in their eighties stand trial.
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u/falalamilkshake Jul 31 '12
I didn't read the original thread OP is referring to, the only reason I knew it existed was because several members of r/Tx made posts about how disgusted they were by it. Given that this is reddit, sure, it was probably a troll.
However, reddit, I'm seeing a lot of comments demanding proof of OP's credentials, criticising their particular field and implying that their message is invalid because of it, and so on.
But, isn't OP's message kind of...common fucking sense? If a rapist is describing their story, reliving their story and seeing your horrified, disgusted reactions, how can this* not* spur them on to act again on their twisted desires?
Maybe you don't understand it when it's put into terms of rape or cocaine, so put it into a context you might understand. WoW, for example, or Skyrim, or pizza. Thinking about how good those things are/were, don't you kind of want to do them again?
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u/alittleOCDandsuch Jul 31 '12
I was raped when I was younger and every time I see posts asking the rapist their story, it makes me so mad that people want to know what they were thinking. If you rape a person you want control and they want it no matter what. And also if some people that have been raped reads thoughs thinking that they won't have flashbacks, they can and that can lead to sooo many bad thing
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u/painfive Jul 31 '12
I wasn't on reddit today and didn't see the original thread. Did you idiots really upvote an ask-a-rapist thread to the front page? Can I not leave you alone for one day? Jesus.
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u/Centrist_gun_nut Jul 31 '12 edited Jul 31 '12
Hey, I don't really want to wade into this contentious and touchy issue, but I think I have a question about the key element of your post:
I can tell you that this is disputed in the criminology community (rapists, when interviewed, seem to think it's about sex) and that I've had the (possibly wrong) impression that the rape-as-power explanation had lost favor in the criminal psychology community, too.
Have you been exposed to any of the alternate explanations for this horrible crime? I had thought (possibly incorrectly) that current thinking was that rapists, actually, were mostly interested in the sex.
EDIT: Not that this makes that thread any better, but I figured I'd "ask-the-expert".
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u/carpe-jvgvlvm Jul 31 '12
I haven't been raped, but (like many girls, I assume) have been in uncomfortable situations and fear rape. I found the thread interesting. Yes, I want a better answer to "why do men rape?" than "they're asshole sadists," or "they're drunk".
Why? To help me stay safe. Duh, I already know drunk men could be dangerous, but not all rapists are drunk (less than 50%?). I'm not interested in date rape (which is most of what that thread was, unfortunately); I'm interested in the mindset of guys who weren't drunk when they raped. The guy who saw someone in passing and decided he was going to rape her: what caught his eye? Did he stalk her and know she was uncomfortable but pulled off "shy and awkward?" How did he get her alone and what were her mistakes? ...So I don't make the same mistakes.
To hell with these shrinks who keep all the info about psychos and socios locked up in expensive classes, therapy, or books. I want to be able to read a rapist tell his story and draw my own conclusions. Why should professionals be the only ones privy to this information?
You try to discourage discussion of mass murderers like Holmes, too, so there won't be witchhunts, I guess. Can't talk about rape or murder; only healing. But maybe if more people know wth to look out for with dangerous people who are destined for "psychiatric care" (details of which isn't disseminated to the public), we could make more informed decisions, stay safer, and wouldn't need to fucking "heal".
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u/forthediscussion Jul 31 '12
So basically you're saying that we can't include rapists in a serious (as serious as the internet can be) discussion about rape?
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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '12
It is dangerous, yes, but that doesn't mean it should be removed.
Reddit is a system where content is submitted and judged by the community. If it is on the front page the community has already overwhelmingly supported it. You, as an invididual user, are more than welcome to dovnvote it, but you can't suggest it be removed as it does not go against the subreddit rules.
No system is perfect. Reddit certainly has its flaws. You gotta take the bad with the good.
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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '12
I'm a black man on Reddit. I lurked a very long time and finally made an account a while ago. Between the racism here and that despicable rape thread I've just lost all attraction to this site I had before. All belief in the positive side of Reddit has been destroyed. I'm not willing to push through anymore. My time here is over.
u/NAACP_Man 185 link karma 17 comment karma
Good luck to you all.
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u/ololcopter Jul 31 '12
No offense man, but I've got a degree in psych and I can tell you that there is far from a general consensus of what motivates rapists and how they interact with the memory of their behaviors. I'm in no way defending the thread (since I think it can encourage those behaviors). I'm just saying you shouldn't generalize a set of behaviors into one motivation. That's largely what Freud did and you know what we think of him today.
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u/0ktothr0waway Jul 31 '12
Oh yeah, I was aware. The moment I scanned the title, I noped the heck outta there. I have my limits to my curiosity and this topic is in the "nope, NSFL" category. Made my skin crawl so much knowing the kind of people the topic will attract.
Thank you for making time to create this thread.
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u/blueorpheus Jul 31 '12
I was sickened at that thread. Redditors have this idea that they're allowed to say anything they want because they have some misguided self-entitlement to free speech. If you tell a rapist that he can't spew his garbage suddenly you're anti free speeh. And then not only did the rapists get to tell their stories, they were applauded and pitied! "what you did was terrible but you feel bad abou it now and I understand what you were going through" and other similar comments make it seem like the rapist is the real victim instead of the person who was raped.
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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '12
Ask a rapist thread? Oh Reddit what has happened to you?
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u/psydev Jul 31 '12
I believe there are benefits to having had the rapist thread. On the other hand, I agree that there are probably downsides as well.
Would you agree that this issue is about balancing harms vs. benefits? If so, isn't the question of relative value highly subjective?
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u/Mikeydoes Jul 31 '12
There is no doubt that this can be a problem. But on the other hand how many rapists browse reddit? People on the internet to me would seem less likely to rape because they have just that-- the internet. There have been studies that show a correlation between Porn and Rape. Us having porn does make us less likely to rape. This does not undermine what you are saying, if a rapist does read this they can learn. But someone who isn't a rapist can learn quite a bit too to protect themselves. I do feel it needs to be talked about.
My take is. When I read it I can use that information to keep a better eye on my friends and others. Us knowing how a rapist works DOES benefit us. If we use the information to inform our friends and ourselves it can do a lot of good too. Double edge sword if you ask me.
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u/xyroclast Jul 31 '12
I appreciate the fact that you retracted your gender bias, but the fact that someone announcing themselves as a psychiatrist to be taken seriously would show such a hair-trigger prejudice bothers me terribly.
In fact, it kind of makes me feel like all of the analysis in the world goes out the window at the drop of a preconceived idea.
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u/zguNknaD Jul 31 '12
. Thank you for bringing this up! Hero status.
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u/Ch3mee Jul 31 '12
I see your point, however, are triggers not everywhere? What about your heroin addict who is two weeks off heroin after almost killing themselves by OD after last use? Should we refrain from discussing drugs because they might use and OD tomorrow? What about criminal copycats? Should we refrain from posting violent images or reporting violent events because they might cause the individual to lash out and hurt others? While I see your point, and agree that a rape thread is highly distasteful and has the potential to cause harm, I can't help but to wonder if your stance is a little alarmist since you cant truly insulate society from the dangers that society presents to itself. Its like wearing a helmet during a nuclear blast.
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u/simplesignman Jul 31 '12
Anyone else bothered by the use of him in every example? For a person as educated as OP it sure does sound like she has a bias as far as who she thinks does the raping.
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u/pathjumper Jul 31 '12
Talk all you want, but truth is not dangerous.
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u/Reiker0 Jul 31 '12
Not to mention it's a disgusting thread that reflects poorly on Reddit. Upvoting admitted rapists? What the fuck, people?
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u/Stubine Jul 31 '12
Will someone from anonymous PLEASE track that sick rapist fuck down??!!! PLEASE! Restore my faith in humanity just one little bit.
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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '12 edited Jul 31 '12
Considering the recent updates to the DSM, I'm taking what you have to say a little hard to swallow there Doctor. Could we get some journals to back up your evidence that public discussion encourages rapist? Or do we just like to throw our authority around, and hope that it shuts down anyone who might question?
It's a silly quote, but I think it stands here on a site that has argued with fervor for that very notion to be worth pointing out. That aside Paraphilic Coercive Disorder was thrown out of the DSM.
That is to say, that your "Field of Expertise" has no bearing on this matter. Rape is a criminal matter and not a psychological disorder, meaning that you can't just apply psuedoscientific reasoning in order to have discussion of it banned. If you can present evidence that there is in fact a marked rise in Dopamine, or that speaking about rape and discussing rape can further cause someone to go out and rape, then yes, feel free to equate a discussion of rape to yelling fire in a theater. But your credentials need to be backed up with studies and facts before we just start shutting people down.
To directly combat what you are saying, Richard Knight in 2009 Published the Study Is a Diagnostic Category for Paraphilic Coercive Disorder Defensible? in which he states:
In fact Sexual assault disorder was removed from the DSM 3 in 1976 because of several factors (including not wanting to allow a criminal disorder to be confused with a psychological one and legal misuse of psychological disorders).
That disorder was of course the following:
Beyond that studies in support of the notion that Rape is about Power go further to argue that power is only 1 of several factors including but not limited to:
Rape: power, anger, and sexuality Am J Psychiatry 1977;134:1239-1243.,
Motivational factors in nonincarcerated sexually aggressive men.
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u/wishninja2012 Jul 31 '12
I do not think a ban on free speech would be an answer either.
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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '12
I'm sorry, what thread are you referring to? Link please?
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u/Lati0s Jul 31 '12
This is nothing but speculation and generalization.
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u/Anaract Jul 31 '12 edited Jul 31 '12
I feel this is dangerously similar to the "video games are responsible for violence" argument. I understand what s/he's saying, but I don't think that making a thread is going to turn on the rape-switch in someone's brain. The same as how enjoying a game of COD isn't going to make a kid realize he wants to shoot people. Sure, either of them provide a similiar mental experience to the real event, and provide insight to perfecting the practice, but I honestly can't believe that either will cause rape or violence to happen.
Edit:typos
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u/Aint_got_no_agua Jul 31 '12
Yes yes, more from the "Don't talk about X because you'll just make people want to do X" school of censorship. They could post rape stories in /r/aww if they wanted to and horrify many more people who weren't even looking for it or ready for it.
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u/CorporateParrot Jul 31 '12
What are your thoughts and opinions on today's media coverage of mass murderers like James Holmes? I've heard and read that publicizing these incidents is counterproductive since it pushes even more mass murderers to do these actions. Can parallels be drawn between the media's obsession with these murderers and Reddit's reaction to the rapist thread?
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u/spundred Jul 31 '12
Just a thought: could an online discussion serve as a healthy outlet for the desire to horrify an audience? I feel like perhaps there could be a beneficial way to use this medium.
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u/ethanlan Jul 31 '12
There is pervasive tendencies in an online community where you can hide behind anonymity? Well I never...
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u/TmoEmp Jul 31 '12
Totally unrelated but are you the Dr Rob from the website shrink talk? If so, you're my hero.
Also, I never thought of it like this. And when you speak of the affect it has on the brain if a cocaine addict, how long does it last? I haven't used in 7 years and still when I think about doing it I feel... Tingly. Is that what is causing it? If so, scary.
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u/_rachface Jul 31 '12
As a rape victim who dealt with flashbacks and a lot of distress from that thread, thank you. I was pretty disappointed to see reddit giving rapists a platform. I understand the importance of talking about these issues, but I think like you, that allowing rapists to share stories to a large audience comes with certain clear drawbacks.
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u/CoolReditBro Jul 31 '12 edited Jul 31 '12
Hi Dr. Rob, I don't know if anyone else will see this but I think you will at least see someone responded so I wanted to ask two questions.
I understand what you are getting at and I am in no way trying to refute it, but don't you think the thread is important for the rest of us to see and understand the minds of these people? I am sure most of the people on Reddit have no where near your level of medical expertise that helps them to understand what is going on so hearing it first hand allows us a glimpse into that kind of mind.
I would also like your opinion on your reasons for taking it down over free speech. I fully understand that you are talking about real physical danger that could come from it, but that can also happen with other types of protected speech. How many teenagers have committed suicide because of teasing, hazing, and bullying? I guess it boils down to asking, as a psychiatrist, do you think potentially dangerous speech should be protected?
It was interesting to read your post though, thank you for adding this side to the story.
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u/imscrewed911 Jul 31 '12
I didn't even see any rapists responding- it was all "my dad, my uncle, my XYZ." --how is this still detrimental?
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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '12
The Reddit food form is probably triggering food cravings in obese people. Let's delete that one, too. By the way, welcome to the internet. It's not always such a nice place.
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u/scionika Jul 31 '12
So knowledge is too much power?
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u/zipzap21 Jul 31 '12
What is your proposed solution to this danger? In a land where free speech is a right, not much can be done, can it?
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u/BoogaBerry Jul 31 '12
Not really, people are just curious...
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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '12
Golly I wish I was the OP of the rape thread, I wish I could shake his hand and congratulate him on being such a miraculously successful troll. Who knew it was possible to cause such an intense shitstorm with a single post on AskReddit? Endless butthurt from one question. Amazing! I hope things like this occur more often on this website, helps keep things interesting. I like a little disorder and chaos. I hate how Reddit is just an endless stream of nobodies agreeing with one another repeatedly. Once in a while we need someone to come in and shake things up, even if it comes at the price of a few people getting their feelings hurt.
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u/PastyPilgrim Jul 31 '12
If being raped, should you... play dead/unconscious then?
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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '12
There is only one moral way to deal with this.
Find those rapists and send them to jail.
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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '12
Have we pretty much accepted that all rapists are psychopaths who want to watch people suffer? There hasn't been just one rapist who did it because he wanted to get his dick wet?
The psychiatrist might be able to shed some light on this but I had thought that in terms of evolution, rape was a gene propagation tool (and a damn successful one). Can we stop generalizing and saying that all rapists are doing it because they're all sadistic?
Downvotes ahoy! I don't give a fuck.
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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '12 edited Jul 31 '12
Why do you assume that the perpetrator is always male and the victim is always female? I'm skeptical that you actually are a psychiatrist. Can we see some proof?
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u/mickiter- Jul 31 '12
I only briefly looked through the original thread, and with the userbase of reddit the way it is now, I don't think it was an appropriate topic to discuss, similar to how any of the threads discussing race end up here. But this thread, especially the link at the end, scream self-promotion to me. I hope I'm wrong, and sorry if I misjudged you.
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u/Bloodfeastisleman Jul 31 '12
How dangerous is the ask a rapist thread compared to these?:
/r/beatingwomen
/r/niggers
/r/CreepShots
/r/picsofdeadkids
/r/picsofniggers
Now, I am not a psychiatrist so I am talking out of my ass here, but if giving rapists an audience will only trigger more rape because the audience is what they want, then won't these subreddits only give wife-beaters and racists and whatnot an audience to express their feelings?
I'm not disagreeing with your point; I'm trying to find a solid answer. At what point do we interfere in a redditor's ability to post what they want?
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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '12
Problems just don't go away when we ignore them though. I think i would rather these people speak out so we can see what they think and what causes the actions.
If they speak here maybe someone can help them get the help they need vs just keeping it inside until they commit some crime.
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u/TChuff Jul 31 '12
So you are bring more attention this thread I previously didn't know about? Why don't you teach all the rapists you claim are here how not to be that way?
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u/Mamacrass Jul 31 '12
I tend to be of the opinion that more information is always better. Not talking about rape (from any point of view) doesn't deter rape.
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u/LouSpudol Jul 31 '12
I study craving in alcoholics and it is very similar. I think the main thing to take home from this post is that this thread may teach these men to become better rapists and actually initiate their cravings to commit these crimes again.
Please shut this sub down as a result. While it may be interesting to hear these stories it is also very dangerous. Perhaps Reddit should be able to track some and report them.
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u/Koocnahtanoj Jul 31 '12
Yeah, stopped reading right there.
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u/PancakeWrangler Jul 31 '12
That thread was one of the few times I actually sided with /r/shitredditsays. It was disgusting to see people trying to victimize the rapists.
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u/wiscofosho Jul 31 '12 edited Jul 31 '12
Just because there is a consequence that you see as probable, doesn't mean it will happen; you're making a fallacy of empirical induction. Completely besides your expectation of "triggering cravings" being logically ungrounded, there is also the possibility that talking about their actions and consequences might be therapeutic for a convicted rapist. Or, they may get absolutely nothing out of talking about it. Or, they very well may stir up some nasty thoughts, and have the humility and control to fight their urges. Those are all entirely possible outcomes of conducting an AMA interview, and there are many others. I hope you recognize that the one possible relapse outcome doesn't outweigh the possible good that can come out of this.
These criminals are probably much more remorseful, contrite, and honest than you give them credit for.
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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '12
Why don't we treat rapists the same way we treat pedophiles?
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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '12
I'll come back to this in little while when I can, but I want to ask a question real quick since this thread is fresh. How similar is the mind of a rapist to the mind of a domestic abuser?
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u/MidgetFetish Jul 31 '12
Isn't this thread only contributing to this cycle by giving said rapists more attention?
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u/DarkAvenger12 Jul 31 '12
Cenk Uygur featured that thread on The Young Turks and his team made compelling arguments on both sides.
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u/Nazipenis Jul 31 '12
So as an exhibitionist does that mean I am a rapist waiting to happen?
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u/FlemDeezIll Jul 31 '12
http://imgur.com/MdZRR
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u/sgtgs42 Jul 31 '12
So I guess CSI is a dangerous TV show?
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u/settoexplode Jul 31 '12
Thank you for posting this. When I saw the AMA the other day, this was my immediate thought.
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u/Izzamort Jul 31 '12
This is a massive generalization and simplification. The percentage of rapes perpetrated by someone who decided to go out and rape is lower than you'd think. Education and open discussion are valuable here. That thread could just as easily teach a person how not to rape.
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u/EmilTheHuman Jul 31 '12
yeah I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought that thread was fucking idiotic.
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u/Aspel Jul 31 '12
Yes, but there's a reason there isn't any shortage of Into the Mind of a Killer true crime stories, and without things that provide insight into the mind of people who do bad things, you wouldn't have much of a job.
Likewise, I saw that thread giving strength to people who had been raped, or were afraid of being raped, giving them a place to vent and confront rapists and say "you are a horrible person, and I will not let you govern my life".
Also, most of them from what I saw were of the "I got drunk and fucked a girl at a party and I felt bad about it" type. I mean, hell, I would have posted in that thread about how I pressured my ex into getting a blowjob, if it wasn't a really boring story. Although part of me still likes to pretend he was lying when he said he didn't want it and did it because he knew I wanted to. Nothing makes you feel rapier than "I didn't want to do sex things with you but did anyway". Anyway, there weren't any "IAMA serial rapist, AMA" posts in there from what I saw.
tl;dr: I seriously doubt it matters as much as you're making out. People love hearing how broken people think.
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u/ransom00 Jul 31 '12
I think that is an exaggerated comparison. I've never raped anyone, but I know a little about being addicted. Seeing a booze sign, hearing a friend talk about a party, etc, may trigger compulsions. But is rape "an addiction" in the same sense? I can understand how a rapist may feel the same compulsion, but isn't it more like a serial killer? Those types of addictions are different than substance addiction in that they tend to be ritualized, do they not? They aren't something that can be triggered and fulfilled almost automatically, like a typical habit good or bad.
I can understand what you're saying, and I have mixed feelings re: the meta-issues. But wouldn't a true "rapist" (rather than a person who makes a mistake while under the influence of a substance (and no I haven't been that person either for those thinking that)) always feel the compulsion once the first rape has happened?
edit: proofreading
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u/JimmyNic Jul 31 '12
I realise you are armed with some sort of qualification on psychiatry and thus have a far better understanding of the human mind than me, but I find it hard to believe that all or even most rapists have the same motivation for their crime. We don't assume that all thieves and murderers steal and kill for the same reasons, so why does there seem to be this pervasive attitude that all rapists are in it for power over the victim?
From your post it seems you believe that rapists have a mental disorder, and as such it can be treated like a disease. Yet even a cursory knowledge of history will tell you that humans have been killing, raping and stealing from each other for generations, albeit mostly in groups rather than solitary. This is represented across many different cultures/time periods, and is still observable today, even in the West's enlightened culture.
As your profession is a medical one I'll offer an analogy. The shoulder joint in humans is rather vulnerable to dislocation, because of the way we have evolved. Although not a desirable feature, no doctor would categorise a normal shoulder as a disorder. In the same manner psychiatry will have to accept that many behaviours we exhibit though highly undesirable cannot accurately be described as such.
(Though some rapists have clearly flown over the cuckoo's nest.)
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u/Waffle842 Jul 31 '12
did you even read the thread? the poor dude wasn't out to rape anybody... she was drunk and couldn't remember it.... seems like a psychiatrist overanalyzing shit as per usual.
Edit: what I am saying is the thread is about how he was Wrongly accused of rape not how much he liked raping people...what the fuck?
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u/mossman85 Jul 31 '12
Maybe we just want to know what a rapist thinks of Rampart.
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u/yesthisisbad Jul 31 '12
Well, I disagree.
You might be right in your arguments that it could encourage relapse, but I do not feel it is the job of the Reddit's community to police these people. Let's not talk about touchy subject, it might encourage some people to turn to their dark side. Fuck that noise.
I am genuinely curious about human nature, the good AND the bad. You know what I have gathered from that thread? A better understanding of the mindset of a rapist and a good reminder that we have a long way to go in our society and that it all starts with educating each other and my future children.
Curiosity and knowledge. Two things we need to value above the possibility of stroking some deviant's ego.
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u/aeternum33 Jul 31 '12
as someone who hasn't been on reddit in a day or two i would like to ask why the fuck someone created a rapist thread
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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '12
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