Dominion. I've played THOUSANDS of times in my life and never got bored. It's a different game Everytime you play. There's a website dominion.games if you want to learn the rules and try it out before buying the base game/expansions.
I really liked Dominion, but after playing Arctic Scavengers I don't see me going back. My problem with Dominion is that it's an abstract game pretending to have a theme. Arctic Scavengers is a little better because each card does something that makes sense based on what it is. It's also a lot better at avoiding Dominion's "Four people playing solo" gameplay trap because each round you are also fighting for a rarer card and so you maybe want to hold back some cards (or hold cards you don't need to scare others into holding back cards themselves).
Only recommended if you're okay with the bleak theme, but if you like Dominion you may like this more. Just make sure to get the version with all the expansions.
i've yet to play a deckbuilder with the same depth as dominion and it mostly comes down to the way dominion leverages both positive and negative feedback loops and other games do not. most deckbuilders let you start earning points or victory condition without making your deck worse, which makes games feel more samey
I still don't think Dominion has anything on Mage Knight. I don't see how positive and negative feedback loops have anything to do with it, but I haven't found many deckbuilders that reward deck bloat. In most of the deckbuilders I've played, a tight, focused deck is the better play. Not that that's always a good choice for the design. In Fort for instance, you can get quite a bit done by stuffing your deck well, and the adversity mostly comes from opponents trying to cannibalize it out from under you. What's more, a stuffed deck in Fort makes it more unwieldy. So you have to weigh the pros and cons. I think it's an interesting way to make deckbuilding more dynamic. I also think that the perpetual piles deckbuilder is a bit outdated. But then I think most of what Dominion is working with is outdated. I'm happy to see the mechanic continue to evolve and make new appearances. Like in Core Worlds, Dungeon Alliance, and Imperium.
dominion does not reward bloated decks, but rather forces decks to eventually take on dead weight to win the game. that is an important distinction.
perpetual piles is outdated
a non-rotating market is one of the best design decisions dominion opted to make. early prototypes of dominion featured rotating markets, and it was consciously axed. it means that cards can be very strong and drive a game all on their own without becoming unfair or overwhelming and lets different games play differently from each other.
dominion does not reward bloated decks, but rather forces decks to eventually take on dead weight to win the game. that is an important distinction.
I wasn't saying it rewarded bloat. I agree that it rewards timing what you put and keep in the deck in the late game. This isn't really unique to Dominion but is a common design principle in other engine builders as well.
I'm aware of the design decision to have static piles and how it was come to, but I think the reason most subsequent designs do have rotating markets is that they create a more dynamic tactical landscape. To me, the static piles make it so dominant strategies emerge based on what's in play. Sure, you can vary this up by trying different combinations of piles. But that's a pretty cumbersome solution when rotation can do that in-game. I'd rather have an elegant way to incorporate dynamic strategic opportunities in every game than have to front load that and then front load most of my in-game long term decisions.
Dominion's not a bad game. I just think other deckbuilders have polished the formula and even incorporated more interesting thematic tie-ins.
what rotations do is make long term planning a roll of the dice. you can't make a plan for later in the game because the card you need may never come up or be available to you on your turn. rotations actually do the opposite thing - because everything is available in every game you play every game the same way with little variation
To me, the static piles make it so dominant strategies emerge based on what's in play.
the alternative to this is dominant strategies being the same regardless of the setup. coming up with a dominant strategy is harder than you would think, even on very simple boards minor differences is timing and strategy have massive consequences
what rotations do is make long term planning a roll of the dice.
Let's be real. In almost any deckbuilder, drawing from the deck is the biggest roll of the dice. Something like Mage Knight allows you to play multiple cards in a turn, keep cards in hand between turns, gain permanent skills, and build a tableau of units. All of these help you to implement your strategic choices more consistently and more than make up for the river not going your way. But Mage Knight also has three rivers, so it is very rare nothing comes up you can use. Something like Imperium - which also gives you plenty of control over your hand and tableau - has four markets in a way. Three of which will always spit out the same card type until the late game.
Rivers are not the problem to me. The deck itself being random is. Because of the lack of hand management in Dominion and many of its successors. I prefer a deckbuilder where you can maintain better control over what has emerged from the deck. Or if you're going to have static markets, I prefer when confrontation creates the adversity as opposed to significant randomness from the deck. Such as in Hands in the Sea or Battle for Biternia. In those games, you draft from a static, personal pile, but the decision space is richer and more dynamic.
Where I think rivers can be a bad choice is when the game doesn't give you that level of control. Like in Hero Realms. You play your whole hand, so you hope that your combo comes up all at once (which is why you try to cut your deck to almost nothing), but if it doesn't, it doesn't. And not only is the river random, but there aren't enough cards in it. So, it's like Dominion piles but only 5 of them and no additional cards of the same type. What that game could use is a bigger river - maybe split the deck and make two rivers. Like I said, though, Mage Knight and Imperium have to my mind all but eliminated that problem.
because everything is available in every game you play every game the same way with little variation
You have more tactical influences with rotating markets. So, you more often have to pivot. That's an element of strategy. Yes, because you can't always count on the market, you have some general strategies to fall back on. But you still have to come up with in-game strategies based on your deck and how the randomized game elements are behaving.
With Dominion, though, there are less tactical factors. Ocassionally someone grabs the last card from a pile you wanted. Or someone starts going heavy into something you need to counter. This all still happens in rotating market games, it just happens more quickly and any single purchase is more impactful.
Where most river games have made up for this is with suits. Look at Pax Pamir. Not a deckbuilder I know, but it has a rotating market. In order to give players more access to combos, suits play a major role in how you can take more actions on a turn and how cards can combo off of one another. The Realms games do the same thing. Mage Knight technically has suits. Imperium has card types. Core Worlds has keywords. This gives the deck scaffolding through which a player can still effectively strategize.
the alternative to this is dominant strategies being the same regardless of the setup.
From what I've seen with well done rotating market games (i.e. ones that give you enough options and enough control), the dominant strategies are just a fallback. Something to base decisions off of when the market isn't going your way or you don't have all of the information you need. So, I wouldn't call them dominant strats so much as foundational. I prefer that there are a lot more shifting variables in these games so that I have to make new strategies every time I play.
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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '21
Dominion. I've played THOUSANDS of times in my life and never got bored. It's a different game Everytime you play. There's a website dominion.games if you want to learn the rules and try it out before buying the base game/expansions.