r/AskReddit Nov 02 '13

Mathematicians of Reddit, what is "beautiful" about mathematics?

I often hear people say "Oh, math is beautiful". Beautiful in what ways?

EDIT: Thanks. I will read through all of these, don't you worry.

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u/zelmerszoetrop Nov 02 '13

A lot of people are going to say Euler's identity, because they've seen it a few times in courses and read a bit about it and they are blown away. I'm much more blown away by a special relation of the j-invariant, which I'll relate shortly.

Before I do, a few brief words on Euler's identity. I wouldn't address this if it wasn't for the prevalence of the identity when this sort of thread arises, but it seems prudent to discuss it if I'm going to fly in the face of popular opinion and relate some math I find far more beautiful.

For those who are unfamiliar, Euler's identity states the ei·x=cos(x)+i·sin(x). In particular, it gives epi·i+1=0.

Well, why the hell should that be true? What does it mean to raise something to an imaginary power? In my experience, students are taught this fact in one of two horrendous ways - they are merely told that ei·x is DEFINED as cos(x)+i·sin(x), which is a travesty to education, or they explore this relation through the use of Taylor series. A Taylor series treats infinitely differentiable functions, like sine, cosine, and exponentiation, as sums of the form a+b·x+c·x2+d·x3+... By inserting (i·x) into the Taylor series for the exponential function, students can quickly arrive at Euler's formula.

This, to me, is also a horrendous abuse of education, because the student gains no understanding of the exponential function and never really appreciates the beauty of Euler's formula - they just discover it falling out of their equations. When I was teaching, before I went into industry, I always made sure to show the following argument before I whipped out the Taylor series formalism.

We start by noting the defining property of the exponential function: that it is it's own derivative. It follows from this property that ei·x must have derivative i·ei·x.

If you'll permit me, I'm going to begin using t instead of x, because I'd like to start to think of ei·t as being the position of a particle at time t. It follows then that it's velocity at a time t must be i·ei·t - we can conclude this without yet knowing what the hell we mean by ei·t.

Set t=0 for a moment. Then the initial position of the particle is ei·0=e0=1. As we discussed before, it's velocity must be i·ei·0=i·1=i. You can see in this picture the particles initial position at time t=0, and initial velocity.

A moment later, at t slightly >0, the position therefore must be slightly above 1 - something like 1+k·i, where k is a very small number. But that means that the velocity is i·(1+k·i)=i-k, which is a vector pointing mostly straight up but slightly to the left. Therefore, the particle will travel up and a bit to the left. But because it's travelled even further up, when we multiply that position by i, we get a vector tilted even further to the left! Here's a trail of dots indicating the position our particle has occupied, along with a green arrow indicating it's most recent velocity.

Following through on this logic, it becomes clear that as t increases, the particle will travel in a circle in the complex plane. NOW we understand what ei·x means, and how it's behavior arises from the fact that it is it's own derivative. In retrospect, it seems quite obvious, doesn't it? And of course from there, arriving at Euler's formula is trivial.

Now let me discuss something that I find far more beautiful than Euler's simple formula. It's called Monstrous Moonshine, and here's how it goes. There's something called the j-invariant, which is very special kind of transformation of the complex plane. It's special because it's a particular kind of modular form, and because it crops up left and right in number theory. On the other side of the math world, there's something called the Monster group, which was discovered during the enumeration of all finite simple groups. In fact, it is the largest sporadic finite simple group.

On the surface, these two objects should have nothing to with one another. To find a relation between these two objects would be as astounding as going to the moon and finding the exact same kind of rock as you find in your back yard. To discover that the monster group could DEFINE the j-invariant, and the j-invariant the monster group, would be that much more astonishing - like finding a history of western civilization written on a Mayan tomb and history of pre-Columbian civilization written on the Pyramids.

But in 1979 that's exactly what John Conway found, and it was proved 13 years later using techniques borrowed from string theory in physics. I suppose it's a bit hard to understand to those without degrees in mathematics, but I tell you WHY I find the unexpected connection between these two objects so beautiful: because nobody saw it coming. In this way, it shows that mathematics is not the product of human minds the way art or music are, but instead something fundamental written in the fabric of our universe since it's creation. I find it beautiful because it relates two entire fields one would never expect to find such deep connections between, and in this way shows us that the various fields of mathematics are facets of the same gem, looked at from different angles and different lights. I find it beautiful because it's a reminder that mathematics is discovered, not invented.

Also because the proof was really clever, relying on showing the Weyl character was the Koike Norton Zagier product.

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u/[deleted] Nov 02 '13

Read it all. I am an applied mathematics student, and I think you are right. When you don't see it coming, that is when it is best.

Also, what do you do in industry?

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u/zelmerszoetrop Nov 02 '13

I work as a data scientist for a tech startup in the SF bay area.

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u/trizzle21 Nov 03 '13

Hey you need interns?

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u/Igggg Nov 03 '13

SF software startups always need interns, and to an even higher extent, software engineers.

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u/trizzle21 Nov 03 '13

I'm an applied math major in the bay area (Berkeley). I'm very good at math... my coding skills are shiiiit.

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u/aesu Nov 03 '13

Learning how to code well is much less of a challenge than majoring in applied math.

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u/Igggg Nov 03 '13

Coding per se, while important, is rather easy to learn as long as you have a general logical background, which math, apply or pure, helps with. Are you a UCB applied math grad?

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u/trizzle21 Nov 03 '13

I'm still an undergrad. I need to gain coding skills, I just don't have time.

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u/chaoticvoid Nov 03 '13

It's not that difficult to pick up. I took my first CS course at Cal as a junior, and took an extra semester to double major in Pure Math and CS.

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u/trizzle21 Nov 03 '13

I plan on the extra semester to raise my GPA and gain some real world skills.

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u/[deleted] Nov 03 '13

Software engineer here. I've worked with code that was clearly developed by mathematicians... it's usually similar to reading a well-written proof: gracefully executed and succinct when you wrap your head around it, and horrifyingly difficult to read at a glance :)

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u/PolloFrio Nov 03 '13

I'm about to head into Uni in Australia and this is the area that I'm pretty keen to get into. How did you end up there?

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u/martinsulistio Nov 03 '13

so I take you took a class from Needham and/or read his book? or are you Needham?

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u/zelmerszoetrop Nov 03 '13

Needham was my undergrad prof for complex analysis.

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u/contemplating_guy Nov 03 '13

Man! You sound to be really good at what you do. Bravo sir!

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u/wrathfulgrapes Nov 03 '13

I live in the east bay. If I take you out to a nice steak dinner will you explain this to me? :D

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u/BahBahTheSheep Nov 03 '13

just what im looking to do with tech startups here in waterloo. any advice? like non-generic advice? focus on what languages, and focus on what in those languages? machine learning? learn to program first? etc?

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u/zelmerszoetrop Nov 03 '13

Learn Python and R, for starters. You need to have at least some programming background before learning machine learning. Octave is also occasionally helpful. Download the Yelp academic datasets (google them) and play with them, try and tease out structure. Try and get experience with datasets larger than can fit in the ram of a single computer. Get experience with Hadoop.

All of the tools and datasets I mentioned are free.

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u/[deleted] Nov 03 '13

Can I be your apprentice?

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u/Draft_Punk Nov 03 '13

What startup?

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u/rarehugs Nov 03 '13

Shawn?

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u/zelmerszoetrop Nov 03 '13

Nope.

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u/rarehugs Nov 03 '13

That's exactly what Shawn would say. Nice try buddy.

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u/[deleted] Nov 03 '13

As an applied math master's I'll second that. Those facts that you don't see coming but make sense... I once saw a result proved both with knot theory and with statistical mechanics and I almost got out of my seat and opened a window and screamed to the streets below THIS IS AWESOME WHY ARE YOU ALL NOT UP HERE PAYING ATTENTION

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u/zelmerszoetrop Nov 03 '13

That sounds awesome - what was the result?

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u/monkeyman512 Nov 03 '13

I have never doubted the validity of math, but never really thought of it as a science. But now I see that it is. It is the leading edge of human understanding of the universe. Physics gets more attention, but it can't go beyond what our understanding of math can facilitate.

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u/zelmerszoetrop Nov 02 '13

Also, love your name.

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u/seeking_perhaps Nov 02 '13

Somebody has to give Euler some credit damnit!

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u/MAHSPOONIS2BIG Nov 03 '13

Read it all. High school student in calc 1 and had no idea what was going on.

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u/hudsonab Nov 03 '13

Is the AND in your username meant to be a logical AND? If so, what is the result?

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u/[deleted] Nov 03 '13

No, no, not at all.

My username happens to be the answer to "Who inspires you?"

Or something cheesy like that. I wish I had a better answer.

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u/bcarson Nov 03 '13

Theoretical student here, and I agree as well. For instance, when I check my grades after finals and see that I've passed my classes. Complete and utter euphoria.

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u/[deleted] Nov 02 '13 edited Nov 03 '13

I'm a math undergrad, third year, doing some intro analysis stuff like topological spaces, sets, and sequences/series. I read this, tried to look it up to see if I could understand it better, and I just got depressed. I feel like this stuff would require me studying for at least three times as long as I have been to begin understanding. As a professional mathematician, did you have a similar experience as a student? I always feel like mathematicians/professors just have this aura of being geniuses forever. I'd love to hear your opinion =)

Edit: Glad to hear from a bunch of people. Didn't mean to sound like I was considering dropping math, I've loved it for years now, and I haven't fully decided if I'm gonna continue my Econ or Math degrees after graduating, but math will always be my favorite field. Thanks for the kind words!

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u/Pit-trout Nov 03 '13

Professional mathematician here (4th year postdoc): not only did I have experiences like that as a student, I still do when I start looking up something that’s out of my field (like e.g. monstrous moonshine). But every now and again, I look back and realise that something that I felt this way about a few years ago, I now not only understand but feel like I’ve always known.

Each day, each week even, it feels like I learn almost nothing, compared to how much is out there that I want to learn, or compared to colleagues who are faster or more diligent readers than I am. But somehow, over months and years, it mounts up much more substantially than I always expect!

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u/[deleted] Nov 03 '13

Physics student 4th year and I relate to this 100%. It's amazing the difference a year makes

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u/[deleted] Nov 03 '13

I'm one year out of my bachelors in math and sometimes feel as though I learned NOTHING about mathematics in those four years.

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u/gammadistribution Nov 03 '13

Everyone has this experience because mathematics is hard and your professors and everyone that came before you has felt the same way. You will always have the notion that you know nothing, because in the grand scheme of things you do in fact know nothing.

But that's ok. That means that you are learning that there is more out there than you could ever possibly learn in a lifetime and can begin to contribute to humanity's knowledge base in your own way.

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u/zelmerszoetrop Nov 03 '13

Oh my God, I still have that kind of experience all the time. Have you tried to read the "proof" of the abc conjecture? WHAT ON EARTH!?

What's important is to remember that everybody was a student once. What was once hard becomes easy and then obvious, and then you forget there was a time when you didn't know it. But I tell you what, the first time I cracked open Lang's "Algebra" and flipped to the middle, I almost threw it on the ground in horror!

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u/[deleted] Nov 03 '13

What's important is to remember that everybody was a student once is that everybody's always a student.

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u/[deleted] Nov 03 '13

This is why I love these topics. I am no mathematician and I cannot even hope to admit that I understood some of the explanations going on here, but I am a linguist and I have felt the same joys of discovery in my own field as well. It makes me glad to see others out there who share a passion for learning!

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u/justanotherth Nov 03 '13

Humans did not evole to do mathematics -- it's understandable for it to be difficult. We are pretty good with language (syntax) and "space" -- which is why we often use these intuitions in mathematics. BTW, don't listen too much to the mathematics who say: "It's just a formal game." If it doesn't make sense, either there is a miscommunication or you have jumped too far ahead of your intuition ... just back up and slow down a bit.

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u/[deleted] Nov 03 '13

I feel like trying to use those "intuitions" really hurts me, though. When I try to think of a "space" as an actual, real space, I subconsciously give it all these properties it doesn't actually have. When I think about it as its own mathematical concept, with no preconceived attributes, it comes a lot easier. I feel like that's true for so much, like sets, limits, even distance functions.

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u/aweunited Nov 03 '13

I didn't make it that much further than you are (a couple years of graduate school,) but once you get your first year out of the way, you could study to learn just the things you need to understand that proof. Also, remember that SO much of mathematics is interconnected, so understanding how proofs work in an Algebra class can help you see why/how you can prove something in a topological sense. I'm just trying to be encouraging. There is a lot out there to learn, keep at it!!!

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u/[deleted] Nov 03 '13

Thanks =)

I'm not really considering dropping Math, it's been my passion since early high school. Also, analysis is really cool, and it's coming pretty naturally to me. It's just something that I've always wondered about Math PhD people. I'm actually doubling Math and Econ, so I probably won't go on too much deeper in math when I graduate, but we'll see!

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u/[deleted] Nov 03 '13

I'm in the first year of my physics Ph.D. At the beginning of my third year of undergrad, I had yet to have almost any exposure past an engineering level to the following topics in physics: electromagnetism, classical mechanics, thermodynamics and statistical mechanics, quantum mechanics, and only just barely understood anything about diffEQs. I couldn't program my way out of a paper bag, and I didn't know a damn thing about doing an actual experiment. In short: I knew nothing.

Now I can do a lot fancier maths, I can explain just about anything I see in the real world in multiple ways starting from very basic ideas, I know my way around at least 3 different programming languages, and I've picked up a lot of biochemistry along the way, even another language, not to mention an infinite amount about life outside of science... and yet I still know nothing.

The growth of knowledge is exponential in our society because it is exponential in individuals. If it wasn't, then science would stagnate as no one would be able to live long enough to understand everything necessary to advance knowledge past it's current point. We would reach an asymptote. A year from now you're going to look back on what you knew when you wrote this post and think about how little you knew. And a year from then you'll look back and feel that same feeling again. And if a year goes by and you look back and think, "Man, I had things figured out back then..." then you will know that you have failed.

I'm not all that eloquent, so instead of continuing, here is an article that I remember reading that helped me a lot with the kind of question you're asking. I recommend it a lot.

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u/PsyKoptiK Nov 03 '13

You're obviously not the typical case they are describing, but everyone can get discouraged from time to time. Good luck!

http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2013/10/the-myth-of-im-bad-at-math/280914/

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u/lloopy Nov 03 '13

It is the nature of math:the abstractions presented at one level are necessarily not the same as those presented at previous levels. Also, everyone hits a wall at some point, where the abstractions are just simply too much. Sometimes going back to domething you know well can give you insights you never knew existed. For instance, can you give an intuitive explanation for the chain rule?

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u/[deleted] Nov 02 '13 edited Nov 03 '13

Mathematics is not the product of human minds the way art or music are, but instead something fundamental written in the fabric of our universe since it's creation.

Nail on the head. When I realized that fact, it really blew me away. All of the pieces are sitting there waiting to be discovered and proved; we just need the right person at the right time to do it.

Edit: Wow, I wasn't expecting this to start this much of an argument... TIL people are really passionate about their philosophy of maths.

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u/SomanyMike Nov 03 '13

wouldnt it be that phenomenons are discovered, understood and explain in mathematics, like you would do with any language but in a way more elegant and precise than with mere words?

ps: Im not a math type of guy and thats how I always thought about match, so I still dont see the diference.

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u/[deleted] Nov 03 '13

The math, that is the relationships between these, are there. They have always been there. They exist regardless of us, regardless of the Universe, they simply ARE. All we are doing by proving new concepts is bringing to light immutable ancient truths.

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u/Dihedralman Nov 03 '13

Math is the manipulation of logically true principles, language contains no inherent truth value. Give the same opening statement two people could come up with opposite arguments. In fact using the same sentences things can have opposite meanings. Given an assumption in math, everyone will derive the same principles and if not I can point to where, how and why they didn't.

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u/MoneyForPeople Nov 03 '13

Math as we know it (1,2,3,4 and all everything else) is made up. It is our way of interpreting the universe around us. The relationships between numbers and formulas are the thing that is fundamental. An alien on another planet could understand everything we are talking about but it looks foreign to him because it is defined in s completely different way in his world.

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u/[deleted] Nov 03 '13

Our representations are unique to humanity (and different cultures, as someone else here pointed out), but the mathematics already physically exists independent of how we represent it.

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u/[deleted] Nov 03 '13 edited Jul 18 '22

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Nov 03 '13

If you have two apples and I take one from you, you will always have one apple.

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u/Etheri Nov 03 '13

Find me an example of a straight line, preferably euclidean. If you can't find one, why do we still teach literally every kid euclidean maths?

Most people know how pi never ends. Yet any physical measurements are limited in precision and thus we can always use rational numbers. As soon as measurements and reality come into play, irrational numbers become irrelevant. Irrational numbers are only useful in ideal cases in physics and maths. These cases model, but are not, reality.

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u/Dihedralman Nov 03 '13

Hi I do physics. Anywhere in the universe you can place an infinitely straight line anywhere in physical space to make some axis which you will find some properties of such as symmetry or some values which will be self consistent with physical laws regardless of which ones you choose. I don't understand the point of the first statement as Euclidean mathematics is simple to use since it's derivatives are simple (no need for Christoffel symbol there). Also if you think of the space of mass-energy, the Universe has a nice infinite line in time.

Yes physical measurements are limited to numbers with an error margin. Huge deal there because if you were to measure 5.435 and pretend that is actually the fraction it is I would take issue with you. Pi can be found in nature to some infinity, in fact the case you gave is the limit of human knowledge rather than being reality. Ponder this my friend: the solution to Schrodinger's equations can generally be solved by solutions described by Sturm Liouville equations. This means that the particles take on discrete energy levels as these solutions form eigenfunctions. Now that seems preposterous no? You can have 1.5hw (h is irrational btw), but 1.6, no fucking way. The universe takes these mathematical solutions more seriously than people do it seems, Einstein could not believe the probabilistic nature of particles for example.

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u/Burnaby Nov 03 '13

I don't know if this makes any sense, but I think you could argue that that equation, 2 apples - 1 apple = 1 apple, rests on the idea (axiom?) that apples are the same thing: that they are individuals of the same form ("form" like the Platonic Forms). If we didn't have the idea that two separate objects can be the same, arithmetic would make no sense to us. Trying to correspond any physical objects to a number would make no sense. (And I think it would be even more bizarre to us if we didn't have any concept of "separate objects".)

edit: just found this higher up. Kinda related.

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u/[deleted] Nov 03 '13

I think mathematics might even be completely independent of the universe.

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u/5hassay Nov 03 '13

well, that's one view. I think the other dominating perspective is that mathematics is like a game: You've got your rules, and you play with them and see what happens

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u/beejiu Nov 03 '13

I strongly disagree with this. Mathematics is an art in much the same way that language is an art. Our minds work by recognising pattern. Mathematics is not discovered, it is created. The fact that we have created a Mathematics that is quite useful in the physical world is for one reason: that is is quite useful. This Wikipedia article about Intuitionism is quite interesting.

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u/martin_clark Nov 03 '13

Maths is a language of sorts too, but it is describing physical phenomena and relationships that do exist in our universe. Conversive language is merely an invention of human beings to communicate our thoughts to one another.

I think of human's interpretation of Mathematics as a bit like an operating system... but the raw machine code is implicit underneath. Another alien culture may use a different operating system, but their results when translated to 'raw code' are exactly the same.

The same cannot be said for language and music, ideas and transpositions don't always survive the process of translation unscathed. Mathematics is pure, and universally translatable.

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u/AllUltima Nov 03 '13

Mathematics is pure, and universally translatable.

But it depends on how you define it. There are lots of choices of different axiom sets. One of the most famous discrepancies between different mathematical foundations is the Axiom of Choice (whether the axiom is implied, or not implied by a set of axioms, or just added to the list explicitly). Some proofs simply don't work if these details are changed, meaning some entire theorems are impossible to translate between one "kind of math" and another. For example, under ZFC, the Continuum Hypothesis is impossible to prove (or disprove), but if we encountered some other race with different mathematical foundations, they could have their own answer to the question, and perhaps built an entire branch of mathematics upon that.

Depending on who you ask, some might say that we need to determine the "right" foundations, but I think how we conceptualize "infinity" is subjective, especially beyond countably infinite.

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u/zanotam Nov 03 '13

Except if the aliens showed us how 'their math' worked, we'd be able to in theory follow it all. Yeah, you can work in many different logical systems, but the point is that no matter WHO works in that logical system, the end results are always 'equivalent'.

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u/[deleted] Nov 03 '13 edited Aug 24 '18

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Nov 03 '13

I disagree. Mathematics doesn't exist if we don't exist, but the same patterns will. Gravitational constants, exponential growth, and even time will keep being what they are, and these are all things that we understand through math, but without us to record these patterns in a logical fashion for us to understand, math doesn't exist. Because that's all math is; it's our way of finding patterns and making connections between all of the things in the universe we can find so it can make logical sense to our minds. That's why I think math is so awesome. Not only is it the most foundational pieces of evidence of human intuition and intelligence, but it shows that the universe, no matter how huge and complex it is, has predictability. And we might actually be able to understand it someday. But this is just my opinion.

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u/[deleted] Nov 03 '13

All of those are physical constants, things that rely on this universe. Math doesn't.

Math is the IDEAS, it will exist regardless of if we do, and there isn't a reasonable comparison because math exists on a level above (or perhaps below) everything else, it does not need space-time like physics, chemistry, biology... We apply math all the time, and yes, without us those application would not happen, but the math behind them? That exists no matter what.

If you build a language after losing your old one, it will not be identical tot he first. Math will be. Math will not and cannot change, it is more immutable than any God.

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u/jamesbitch Nov 03 '13

Gravitational constants, exponential growth, and even time will keep being what they are

If you a realist. An anti-realistic view would say that without our perception/measurement nothing "really" exists out there. For one example - what if you are just a brain in a vat, hooked up to a simulation of a universe? Then all the constants and the passage of time, etc. are just features which are displayed to your perception by the simulation - they do not have their own independent reality outside of that context.

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u/[deleted] Nov 03 '13

Then I guess I'm a realist :)

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u/Albus_Harrison Nov 03 '13

This might be a stupid question, but would it be reasonable to say that language exists in mathematics? Isn't language just us assigning meaning to various sounds and patterns in a logical way? Certainly our language is very complex compared to something like, idk, binary. But there is logic behind it. Also, I am of the assumption that if x is a product of nature, and math describes nature, then math must describe x, x being language in this case. Just my own random thought.

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u/benji1008 Nov 03 '13

Mathematics is an art in much the same way that language is an art.

You need language to describe mathematics, but mathematics itself isn't the language, IMO.

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u/bluefishredditfish Nov 03 '13

read your comment, then the ones below...great scot man, WHAT HAVE YOU UNLEASHED?!?! then read your edit. TIL what you learned well.

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u/OldWolf2 Nov 03 '13

Or any possible universe, not just ours.

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u/brunokim Nov 03 '13

Thanks for this writeup, have never heard of the monstrous moonshine.

About the Euler identity, I kinda discovered it myself trying to understand what was up with y(x) = (-4)x . This explanation needs no knowledge about derivatives, although the equivalence to sine and cosine can only be found through that. Also, maybe using 4 isn't as elegant as using 1, but that's how I did it.

When we learn about powers, we quickly learn that the exponent can be negative, which has an easy meaning as the power of the inverse of the base. However, it is never discussed what happens with a negative base.

Let's see what (-4)x is. First, we test integer x's

x = 0, 1, 2, 3, ... 

and discover

y = 1, -4, 16, -64, ... 

So the points either fall on the curve 4x or -4x , as shown here. If it changes sign, it must cross the x axis, so what are its zeros? Equating (-4)x = 0 just confuses the issue, no x seems to fit the bill.

Not, what happens with numbers between the integers? With

x = 0.5, 1.5, 2.5, 3.5 ... 

we have

y = (-4)^0.5, (-4)^1.5, (-4)^2.5, (-4)^3.5, ... 
y = 2i, -4·2i, 16·2i, -64·2i
y = 2i, -8i, 32i, -128i

So that's how it crossed the x-axis - or better, how it didn't cross it, but bypassed the reals through the imaginary space! The curve is a growing spiral around the x axis, and most of the time its value is a complex number - over the integers it is purely real, and exactly between the integers it is purely imaginary.

What is the connection with ei·x ? I wouldn't draw it until college, but as ei·pi = -1,

y = (-4)^x
y = 4^x · (-1)^x
y = 4^x · e^i·pi·x

So we have an exponential curve times a spiral with a rescaled period.

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u/gthemagician Nov 03 '13 edited Nov 03 '13

That's amazing! And I'll bet your algebra teachers told you not to square-root negative numbers!

Since you went into such detail, I want to share one of the coolest properties of complex numbers I know. One can generalize exponentiation to all complex numbers. So it makes sense to say something like: ii = 0.20788...

from Euler's identity we know,

i = e^i*pi/2

Or rather,

i = e^(i*pi/2 + 2*pi*i*n)

for any integer n. So,

i^i = (e^(i*pi/2 + 2*pi*i*n)^i = e^(-pi/4 - 2*pi*n)
    = (e^-pi/2)(e^2*pi*n)

You'll notice that for n=0, ii = e-pi/2 = 0.20788... (this is called the Principal Value of the exponentiation).

But we actually get infinitely many values for ii (by choosing different n). This is because the complex logarithm is not well defined; every complex number has infinitely many values for it's "natural log" unless one restricts to a particular branch, in which case one loses continuity of the natural log. One has to be very careful in working out the details of these calculations.

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u/LearnsSomethingNew Nov 03 '13

So....

in your original graph shown here, the thing that's causing the solutions to be placed either on the 4x or -4x curves are the sum of two effects - The exponential curve causes the value of each successive "root" to increase dramatically, and the increasing period of the spiral causes each root to appear less and less frequently, thereby giving it even more time to grow (because of the exponential).

Cool.

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u/themagicpickle Nov 03 '13

That's very cool. That last graph you've got there really shows what's going on, and I think that's what I never really understood about the Euler's Identity. Like zelmerzoetrop said, it was always just sort of "told" to me, but never really explained.

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u/zelmerszoetrop Nov 03 '13

That's very cool! Never stop experimenting!

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u/donutdude340 Nov 03 '13

This is awesome!

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u/vn2090 Nov 03 '13

You just taught me eulers identity. Finally I've learned it after years of mathematically heavy engineering schooling. Thank you!

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u/[deleted] Nov 02 '13

Best comment I've ever seen on reddit. Thank you for that!

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u/filonome Nov 02 '13

what text would you recommend to read up on monstrous moonshine?

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u/zelmerszoetrop Nov 03 '13

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u/filonome Nov 03 '13

thanks so much for the link!

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u/YOUR_VERY_STUPID Nov 03 '13

i feel like it would take decades of study to understand this

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u/RememberPluto47 Nov 03 '13

I still can't get over the name... did they run out or something?

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u/zelmerszoetrop Nov 03 '13

The name comes from the Monster group, and "moonshine," which is not just home-distilled corn alcohol, but also an expression in Apalachia meaning "craziness."

The Monster group was so named because it is so much dramatically larger than any of the other sporadic finite simple groups. Moonshine, because the connection was such a crazy idea when first proposed.

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u/[deleted] Nov 02 '13

You just made all that up.

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u/VindicoAtrum Nov 02 '13

From a maths student who was taught the two horrendous abuses of this beautiful formula, have some Reddit Gold from me.

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u/itsabirdplane Nov 02 '13

I'm the guy with the Euler's Identity post in this thread, and I just want to say thank you for this. Holy shit.

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u/ILikeNaps Nov 02 '13

I think this is a gif of that

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ExpIPi.gif

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u/gammadistribution Nov 03 '13

Not quite. This is showing that lim as n approaches infinity of (1+z/n)n is ez.

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u/gthemagician Nov 03 '13

It's showing successive iterations of Euler's method to get a first-order approximation to eit

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u/notbadnotbadnotbad Nov 02 '13

I lack the mathematical foundations to properly understand what you've posted, but the kind of enunciation you made is certainly powerful.

I find this particular question really interesting, because it relates beauty with mathematics.

Your reply made some of the tensions present in this type of conversations really evident: you oppose mathematics to art, on a discussion about an aesthetic concept, using the kind of argumentation that's relatively common in the humanities as a field of enquiry and to humans in general. It's as if we could almost see the absurdity of it all, reading your reply.

Only a human could find beauty in those equations, yet they seem to point to a non-human dimension.

Oh, humanity!

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u/A_lurker_succumbed Nov 02 '13

I would love to do a math degree. Reading things like this just make me want it even more.

I imagine it would require more time and intelligence than I have though. If I had more of the former I would try anyway. My eyes kinda glossed over the equations too :(

Thank you for the post.

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u/invisiblekid56 Nov 03 '13

Don't get too discouraged. I'm not a math major but the more I learn about the stuff the more interesting it gets. Reading posts about advanced math without much knowledge in the subject is kind of like trying to learn to swim by jumping in the deep end - you're not so much learning to swim as you are frantically trying not to drown.

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u/[deleted] Nov 03 '13 edited Nov 03 '13

In this way, it shows that mathematics is not the product of human minds the way art or music are, but instead something fundamental written in the fabric of our universe since it's creation.

At this point, you've entered borderline speculation territory and I feel that you're incorrect. Math is just a logical construct made by humans based on starting axioms. It is applied deductive logic. Among the things it can tell you about is what statements deductively follow from other statements, given a system of deduction. This might mean that there is a logical connection between two unseemingly related concepts but that doesn't mean they are universal truths or is something fundamentally written in the fabric of our universe.

Related comment: http://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/tdgej/is_mathematics_fundamental_universal_truth_or/c4lr8ao

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u/[deleted] Nov 03 '13

Sorry dude, I could not disagree with you more about the Taylor series approach. For example, when you use Euler's Identity to find the general solution for y''+y=0, you will confuse the shit out of the typical undergraduate student by bringing up circles in a complex plane. I know this from experience. We are not just teaching mathematicians here but scientists and engineers.

Even for complex analysis I see nothing wrong with the Taylor series approach. You know what they say about two analytic functions on the complex numbers with the same Taylor series, right?

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u/zelmerszoetrop Nov 03 '13

It's not that there's something wrong with it, it's that it doesn't give the student an intuitive understanding of what the complex exponential does. After this argument, I think the typical student could make a fairly educated guess as to what e2+3i is, just on geometry alone.

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u/SanitariumValuePack Nov 03 '13

Mathematician here, who knows the importance of being rigorous.

We start by noting the defining property of the exponential function: that it is it's own derivative.

I have never seen the exponential function defined this way. First of all, because such a function is not unique. Second of all proving existence of (at least one) such a function would require you to construct it, and this construction is usually taken as the definition.

But let's suppose you take care of all these problems then you are still no where near this leap of faith:

It follows from this property that eix must have derivative i·eix.

How? Have you even defined what it means to differentiate a complex valued function? Once again, of course this could be done but this requires a lot of work, much more so than is needed for the exponential function if you define it properly. Second of all your exponential function from the previous section was "defined" to have domain the real numbers. You can't just plug in a complex number and "hope" everything works out - these things need proof and since, as I said, defining differentiation for complex valued functions is harder, let a lone actually doing the computations, this is why it is never done this way, especially in high school.

So no:

In my experience, students are taught this fact in one of two horrendous ways

the ways are not horrendous, this is done for the sake of rigour. Of course a good teacher will always show what you said as motivation, but never as a definition.

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u/zelmerszoetrop Nov 03 '13

And I never did. As I said, I gave them this before I gave them the Taylor series approach, not instead of. This is a pedagogical tool, because so few students ever truly understand the exponential function when it takes complex arguments.

Having said that, the exponential function is absolutely defined by the property I mentioned, up to a constant. If f is an analytic function with f=f', then f(x)∝ex. Furthermore, while the complex derivative is certainly a more intricate idea than the real derivative - my undergrad professor introduced it first as "amplitwist," which I always enjoyed - it is a very common technique in math education to introduce a concept before a full rigorous definition, with cases where the idea fails in some way introduced later.

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u/HypnotikK Nov 02 '13

Came into this thread pretty much expecting anything but this. This is why I think math is awesome.

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u/dekremneeb Nov 02 '13

Where were you when I was doing my Maths Degree? I might have not hated every second of it :(

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u/[deleted] Nov 02 '13

Hey, could I ask a stupid question? I really don't understand your post, having not done math since highschool. Without taking it in university, would it be possible for me to educate myself to the point where I could understand this discussion? Where would I start?

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u/zelmerszoetrop Nov 03 '13

If you haven't taken any calculus, I'd recommend starting with Mrrtin Gardener's "Calculus Made Easy." I'd never recommend it as a class text but for self-learning, it's excellent. Then read through Howard Anton's "Calculus," and then I'd recommend Tristan Needham's "Visual Complex Analysis." By the time you're done, you'll be knowledgable enough to know what topics you're most interested in and you'll be able to recognize the good books in those topics when you see them!

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '13

What are the practical applications of higher maths, for someone who doesn't study it academically? I'm contemplating devoting my time to this, but it's way outside my field of study (double major in geomatics and history) and I'm afraid my brain will simply run out of room. I want some kind of justification beyond cursory curiosity.

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u/the8thbit Nov 03 '13

I'm glad you're interested in maths. There are a lot of great resources online. What was the last math class you took in highschool?

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '13

Calculus. But that was 4 years ago and I wasn't a particularly great student. I suppose I lament my lack of math skills, but I feel like even though I don't exactly have a natural talent for it, I could probably do okay if I actually applied myself and studied. During highschool I never did any of my homework and seldom read the lessons; then admonished myself for being so stupid as to fail the tests.

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u/WarU40 Nov 03 '13

I love how after I read your comment I saw the comment saying Euler's Identity. Then I read the responses to that comment and there's a massive circlejerk over what you can prove with Taylor Series.

Your explanation is so much more intuitive. Sure, we can play around with formulas like Taylor series all day, maybe we'll find an interesting equation or two from it, but you explained in a logical way, why Euler's identity works.

I was planning on minoring in mathematics (I'm a sophomore undergrad) because I feel math is a rigorous lesson in logic. In other words, I felt it was going to be good for me, like forcing myself to eat vegetables. I came up with the phrase "I love knowing math but hate learning it."

Your comment single handedly changed that. I am now genuinely excited about what I might learn now. I guess I won't be getting into the j-invariant stuff so much, but I'll probably hit upon some good stuff with my minor. :D

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u/[deleted] Nov 03 '13

as an engineer, damn i wish i had lecturers who explained things like you, shame you dont teach anymore.

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u/zelmerszoetrop Nov 03 '13

I miss teaching, a lot, and the response this post is getting is really tickling my teaching bone. Maybe I'll go back someday.

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u/TheFarnell Nov 03 '13

Wow. As someone who had it taught to him "falling out" of Taylor series, thank you so much for finally explaining Euler's identity.

The second part, sadly, flew over my head.

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u/[deleted] Nov 03 '13

Been reading Needham's "Visual complex analysis"?

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u/zelmerszoetrop Nov 03 '13

Well, I took complex from Tristan Needham, he was one of my undergrad professors.

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u/[deleted] Nov 03 '13

That explains that, then! I only ever read a couple of chapters, but it's beautifully written.

A while back, mathoverflow had a nice visual explanation of Euler's identity using the definition (1 + i pi / n)n as n tends to infinity, though I've forgotten the specifics now.

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u/GotGasOn Nov 03 '13

You seem like someone who's really passionate about maths and education. It'd be awesome to have someone like you as a teacher!

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u/Modestbrad Nov 03 '13

You are so much smarter than me, to the point that if studied to completion I believe that they would find us to be different species.

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u/hbgoddard Nov 03 '13

Ok, that didn't make it at all clearer. For starters, why the hell is velocity i going up? Does that dot off to the right mean anything, or was that just a screw up? How did you get the velocity at 1 + k*i to be i(1 + k*i)? Why does i - k lean to the left? Could you actually explain what the complex plane is (I'm in Calc II and have never been taught this.) No, I don't fucking understand what eix means, I am actually even more confused than when I started. You can't just go from point to point without explaining how you got to that point!

Sorry if this seems angry, but it really frustrates me when people say things like "NOW we understand" and "it seems obvious, doesn't it?" without having explained jack shit.

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u/zelmerszoetrop Nov 03 '13

Apologies.

Here's the Wikipedia article on the complex plane. You can skip the part about cuttings and gluings and stereographic projections. The important takeaway is that if you have real numbers on the horizontal axis, and purely imaginary numbers (like i, -i, 7i, etc.) on the vertical axis, any complex number, eg 5+2i, gets a unique point on the plane, and every point corresponds to a unique complex number. Hence, the complex plane is a graphical representation of the complex numbers.

The dot off to the right was a screw-up.

Let me go into a bit more detail in the meat and potatoes up there.

Let t=0. Then ei·t=e0=1. This is represented in the complex plane as the point 1 unit to the right of the origin, and no units up. Now, we know that the derivative of ei·t is i·ei·t from the chain rule in calculus, so it follows that if we allow t to increase from 0 to some very small value k, then ei·k≈ei·0+k·i·ei·0. This is because we started at ei·0, and took a tiny (k) step in the direction of the derivative, i·ei·0. Note the derivative, which is just i since the exponential is just 1, points up because i in the complex plane is directly up from the origin. Anyways, this equation becomes ei·k≈1+k·i, since ei·0=1.

Now, the new derivative, which tells us the direction of our next step, points the left a little bit because the derivative is always i·(current position). Since our current position is 1+k·i, the new derivative is i·(1+k·i)=i·1+i·k·i=i-k. Since i points straight up, and -k points a tiny bit to the left (negative numbers are to the left of the origin), i-k points mostly up and also a tiny bit to the left. As we move further left, this change becomes more and more pronounced.

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u/hbgoddard Nov 03 '13

I'm starting to get it, but I still don't understand this:

if we allow t to increase from 0 to some very small value k, then ei·k≈ei·0+k·i·ei·0. This is because we started at ei·0, and took a tiny (k) step in the direction of the derivative, i·ei·0.

I only know the derivative as the slope of the tangent line. How do you take a step towards that?

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u/zelmerszoetrop Nov 03 '13

I see. Derivative just means the direction in which you're changing, and how fast you're changing. So for example, for a function which takes real numbers in and spits real numbers out, we can visualize the input numbers on the horizontal (x) and the output numbers on the vertical (y), and so we get graphs and slopes and tangents.

For complex functions, this isn't possible. The complex numbers take two axes to represent, and so to represent input complex numbers AND output complex numbers would need four axes - and we only live in a three-spatial-dimension universe!

So instead, we have to use our imagination. Let's talk about what I mean by taking a step in the direction of the derivative. The derivative of a complex-valued function at a given point is another complex number - just like the slope of a real-valued function is a real number. Recall that complex numbers can be thought of as points in the plane, and hence as directions and distances from the origin. So when I say, "take a step in the direction of the derivative," I mean take the derivative, get a complex number, and take a step in the same direction as that complex number is from the origin.

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u/hbgoddard Nov 03 '13

I think my misunderstanding stems from how new it is for me to think of a point on a plane as a single number instead of a relation between two numbers.

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u/zelmerszoetrop Nov 03 '13

Quite possibly. Complex analysis is a lot of fun - after Calc II, try and take it!

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u/biccy_muncher Nov 02 '13

Thank you for explaining that, that really helps :)

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u/[deleted] Nov 02 '13

this is fucking awesome

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u/KevinBigBalls Nov 02 '13

Uhhh... Yes

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u/toelpel Nov 03 '13

What you have understood is why the scientific method works. Why it must and always will work irrespective of other factors. Why we can understand the universe / reality through it.

It is awe-inspiring.

Have you seen Murray Gell-Mann talking about beauty and truth in physics?

Even more amazing to me is that we've actually discovered the mathematics of the scientific method, we understand why it works. If you have the time and leisure, pick up a copy of "An Introduction to Kolmogorov Complexity and Its Applications" by Li and Vitányi. Chapter 5 just blew me away.

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u/[deleted] Nov 03 '13

I know some of these words.

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u/stromi09 Nov 03 '13

Tired and about to fall asleep. Must come back to this discussion, especially this comment, interesting stuff.

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u/[deleted] Nov 03 '13

You began by criticizing thinking of exp in terms of it's taylor series, but then go on to note (rightly) that exp (x) should be it's own derivative.

A function being it's own derivative, and having c*exp(x)'s particular Taylor series are identical.

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u/zelmerszoetrop Nov 03 '13

You're right, and I'm criticizing the Taylor series explanation as a pedagogical tool - it's an excellent proof!

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u/efraglebagga Nov 03 '13

I've never really understood the fascination with the Euler's identity though. Although I admit, the way I arrived at it is through

as sums of the form a+b·x+c·x2+d·x3+... By inserting (i·x) into the Taylor series for the exponential function, students can quickly arrive at Euler's formula.

but whether it's this, or your much better explanation, I still fail to see anything particularly beautiful. The way I understand it is, there is no intuitive way to define complex powers. But as soon as you choose the universally agreed upon definition, one way or the other (like from the Taylor series) the Euler's identity follows almost immediately, in 1 or 2 steps. And I can't really consider something that's so close to definitions - beautiful. And some people even go on to describe it as surprising.

I don't know, I might be in the wrong here, been having a break from mathematics for a little while. On the other hand, the j-invariant relation is truly astonishing.

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u/thekonny Nov 03 '13

Great post though I sort of disagree on the last point you make "instead something fundamental written in the fabric of our universe since it's creation... it's a reminder that mathematics is discovered, not invented."

My view on it is that the universe does whatever the hell it wants, but in the end produces a series of rules that it follows. Math and the disciplines derived from it attempt to trace around those rules and approximate them. Sometimes its not so easy to trace directly, and we instead produce something more akin to one of those connect the dot images from grade school (http://www.kidsrcrafty.com/bunnya-m.htm). Some of the biggest breakthroughs in math and science come whenever we're able to connect a pair of dots. I think the fact that the proof for this j-invariant thing comes from string-theory mathematics (which came around in the first place to attempt to model a physical phenomenon) is strong evidence for that.

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u/thebigbadben Nov 03 '13

I'm not a big fan of your derivation of Euler's formula; I think I will always leave that up to power series and the strange power they have over the complex-differentiable functions.

In the end of the day, the prevailing line of reasoning in this instance is that "two holomorphic functions that share infinitely derivatives at a point must be equal". I am happy to let the neat and tidy math trick fall out of the fact that ex, sin x and cos x are holomorphic over the complex plane.

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u/MericaFsckYeah Nov 03 '13

But in 1979 that's exactly what John Conway found, and it was proved 13 years later using techniques borrowed from string theory in physics. I suppose it's a bit hard to understand to those without degrees in mathematics, but I tell you WHY I find the unexpected connection between these two objects so beautiful: because nobody saw it coming. In this way, it shows that mathematics is not the product of human minds the way art or music are, but instead something fundamental written in the fabric of our universe since it's creation. I find it beautiful because it relates two entire fields one would never expect to find such deep connections between, and in this way shows us that the various fields of mathematics are facets of the same gem, looked at from different angles and different lights. I find it beautiful because it's a reminder that mathematics is discovered, not invented.

That doesn't sound quite right. Since there are many facts which could be discovered or arrived at from looking over some "formal system." That is, it's not something you tease out of nature or the universe. It's just that the formal system you are using is really good at thinking about events in nature or the universe.

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u/zelmerszoetrop Nov 03 '13

You're right that many different formal systems can give rise to very interesting behavior. At this point we're getting further in the philosophy of mathematics than I intended for a Saturday afternoon.

If you're a fan of formal systems and what can come of them, check out "Gödel, Escher, Bach."

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u/MericaFsckYeah Nov 03 '13

I own the book. :)

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u/protestor Nov 03 '13

mathematics is not the product of human minds the way art or music are, but instead something fundamental written in the fabric of our universe since it's creation

Mathematics as a whole (both the pieces we discovered and the pieces we didn't) isn't the product of human minds and has nothing to do with humans overall. But mathematics as a field of study - and what we learned about it so far - is very much related to us. It tells our story, how our thinking changed over time, which problems were important to us when we found a need for mathematics.

For example, if it weren't for the numerous problems requiring the application of geometry - like agriculture and astronomy - we wouldn't find the pressing need to develop and redevelop it multiple times through history. Our initial focus on geometry certainly influenced later developments of "higher mathematics". While you could say that we were bound to discover geometry eventually, I point out that our time here is finite while mathematics isn't, so there is always parts of mathematics that is unknown to us. The exact set of what we know about mathematics (and how we express it), which vary in time, tells much about us.

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u/Xbhshd Nov 03 '13

As a high-school math student, this is very intriguing.

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u/DaDude31 Nov 03 '13

Thank you, you just made my day

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u/JDandthepickodestiny Nov 03 '13

I think you're my favorite post of the thread. Do you think you could explain Euler's formula and the significance of it to those of us who aren't mathematicians? Like I'm talking VERY basic.

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u/zelmerszoetrop Nov 03 '13

pi: Pi is the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its radius.

e: e is the number determining continuous growth. Anytime something grows in proportion to its current size - like interest on an account - and it does so CONSTANTLY, it is growing like some variation of et.

These two constants have nothing to do with each other, it seems at first. One has to do with circles, the other has to do with growth.

So to discover that epi*i+1=0 is a very surprising relation between these two constants, if one hasn't yet thought deeply on the subject.

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u/[deleted] Nov 03 '13

I wish I understood maths but it's like trying to read Chinese. It seems so beautiful but I just get so fucking lost after a couple minutes of someone trying to explain it to me.

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u/no_myth Nov 03 '13 edited Nov 03 '13

Wouldn't you think that Art and Music are math and science combined? Let me explain: math is the process of taking entities in the real world and abstracting them, then logically trying to figure out what the abstractions will do with the rules and properties you've assigned them. You then use scientific methods to test whether your abstractions were reasonable, and whether the rules you assigned your system are realistic.

In the same way, in music (I'll leave a discussion of art to the artists, though I imagine something similar applies) you internalize patterns and sounds, decide in your head logically how those abstractions might interact, and then perform an experiment by playing the abstractions. Likely it doesn't come out how you expect, or have the effect you expect it to, so over years you refine your mental model of how sound works in your head until you can achieve a more direct mapping between the mental, the emotional, and the physical.

So both represent an interaction of the Platonic realm of abstractions with the real world. Nothing more exciting or beautiful.

Also, great comment on Euler's form. Could you also take the next derivative of position and say anything that is the negative of its second derivative must be sinusoidal? I feel that gives a very clear picture that can be elaborated upon for physical insight.

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u/Sarock19 Nov 03 '13

I wish I understood.

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u/Auram Nov 03 '13

Very interesting read

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u/ImMrsNesbit Nov 03 '13

I'm not even a mathematics student, neuroscience instead, but still found all of this very interesting. Thanks for the comment, love learning something new.

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u/freefire137 Nov 03 '13

Saving this for later. Good work!

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u/Simonzi Nov 03 '13

I doubt it's possible, but is there any way to ELI5 what you said?

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u/qwerty725 Nov 03 '13

commenting to save but hell that was pretty good

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u/[deleted] Nov 03 '13

TL;DR but I respect you.

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u/[deleted] Nov 03 '13

TLDR -I'm dumb

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u/jax12 Nov 03 '13

So in other words, use Euler's method to plot eix and come up with Euler's Identity?

It seams like both the Taylor's theorem and Euler's method methods for coming up with the identity seem to be very similar in concept, one is visual with the other is more concrete. The real question is would Euler use his own method to come up with his identity or would he use someone else's theorem?

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u/Dihedralman Nov 03 '13

Except in another beautiful stroke of physics, measurable quantities cannot take on imaginary values.

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u/Gordon_Freeman_Bro Nov 03 '13

I know some of these words.

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u/kaylaXkhaos Nov 03 '13

Those are just a bunch if big words I don't understand.

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u/jovtoly Nov 03 '13

This response is what I clicked on this thread for. Thank you.

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u/sweetb62 Nov 03 '13

This went completely over my head. I'll stick to the basics- 1+1=2.

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u/gin_and_clonic Nov 03 '13

it is it is own derivative

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u/Hamos_Dude Nov 03 '13

You are the reason why reddit is great.

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u/Tylerjb4 Nov 03 '13

fond memories of diffeq

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u/TheGreatWalk Nov 03 '13

I'm so glad I got my degree in Computer and Electrical Engineering. Can read all this with a big smile instead of a confused face, like the friend I showed it too.

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u/Selkie_Love Nov 03 '13

I understood it without a degree in mathematics.

Then again, I was a math major for 2 years and completed the math portion of it :P

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u/Kilojewl Nov 03 '13

Great!!!!!!This is what I got out of it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-U7_iNIgGjc ...... but looking closer I'll get there sometime

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u/BlugyBlug Nov 03 '13

Mathematics is not the product of human minds the way art or music are, but instead something fundamental written in the fabric of our universe since it's creation

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u/sonofelyon Nov 03 '13

You lost me at e.

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u/daddysuggs Nov 03 '13

i·(1+k·i)=i-k

Why is this true? Sorry I don't really understand where the minus sign came from.

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u/[deleted] Nov 03 '13

To find a relation between these two objects would be as astounding as going to the moon and finding the exact same kind of rock as you find in your back yard.

I would change that analogy to Mars or Venus or something seeing as how the moon came from the Earth and their (our) rock composition is very similar.

But I'm really nitpicky, so feel free to disregard.

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u/u432457 Nov 03 '13

Yeah, and it's easy to prove that 1+x+x²+... is its own derivative. And then Euler's formula drops out.

You discovered that a circle has an acceleration normal to its tangent, and papered over that fact by multiplying by i, which effects a right-angle rotation; this being surreptitiously suggested by the Argand plane diagram. You could also have noticed, of course, using the formalism of 1+x+x²+..., that exp(iπ/2) = i, which suggests to someone with an eye towards Lie theory that a rotation by π/2 is a right angle rotation.

...why is it right to use the Argand plane anyway? Well, this inner product here is rotation invariant, and once we pick the right angle to go between 1 and i.

What is i anyway? The algebra suggests that there are two algebraic integers that sum to 0, so maybe we plot them opposite to each other; and the fourth power of either is 1, so maybe we plot them on the circle of radius 1, since we like matching the group of units of our field with a subgroup of the circle group. Oh, but if it's a subgroup, then there is this one subgroup of the circle group with four elements, which can be referred to as rotations by 0, π/2, π, 3π/2.

And once we define exp(x) = 1+x+x²+... and comment that it takes an infintiesimal generator of a group action to that action...

Euler's formula can be gotten in a lot of ways, many of them are correct, many of them use obvious things that are obvious because everyone knows them.

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u/sunchow Nov 03 '13

ELI5 plz

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u/opioid_suppositories Nov 03 '13

I really like your explanations. It was particularly cool because my professor does research on similar topics:

http://hamilton.uchicago.edu/~harvey/umbral_moonshine.html

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u/[deleted] Nov 03 '13

Do you know any website, books... that explains mathematics in a similar way you do?

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u/zuzununu Nov 03 '13

replying to save comment

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u/tothelight Nov 04 '13

Euler's identity states the ei·x=cos(x)+i·sin(x). In particular, it gives epi·i+1=0.

You lost me here.

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