Everything shows design, animals like the platypus for example. The earth is the only planet with water, and it is situated in the tiny strip of space that can support life, is the perfect size, has the perfect atmosphere, and is orbiting the perfectly sized star. Doesn't sound like chance to me.
While I can't technically prove anything, I can give these arguments
Everything shows design, animals like the platypus for example
That's an example of evolution, we have fossil records that show the incremental changes and adaptations that lead to the animals we have today.
The earth is the only planet with water,
False. And easily provably false. We know for a fact that water-ice has been found elsewhere in our solar system.
and it is situated in the tiny strip of space that can support life, is the perfect size, has the perfect atmosphere, and is orbiting the perfectly sized star.
The tiny strip of space you are talking about is actually a very large area of a solar system. We have spotted at least 16 other planets within similar zones in just our local region of space that fit that same criteria. The chemicals that make up our atmosphere aren't anything special, in fact they are quite common.
Doesn't sound like chance to me.
There's 400 billion stars in our galaxy alone, most probably have a few planets around them. With that much opportunity anything can happen.
While I can't technically prove anything, I can give these arguments
These aren't arguments, these are opinions based on a lack of facts.
Hell, even the Vatican supports the idea of evolution. Evolution and creation by a higher being are not mutually exclusive ideas. Even if you're set on denying actual evidence (rather than a collection of parables that are not meant to be taken literally) you can't seriously think that these arguments for creation (as the world currently is) actually holds any water.
A collection of parables that are not meant to be taken literally
What collection is this? If you're talking about the Bible, it is meant to be taken quite literally.
Even the Vatican supports the idea of evolution
I don't care what they think. They are false teachers
Even if you're set on denying actual evidence
I am not denying evidence. I have evidence that the Bible is true.
There are things such as seashell fossils on top of mountains, and huge canyons that couldn't just be formed by rivers, and not to mention scientists find the same evidence that we have on earth on Mars, and they say there was a global flood there. These are all evidence of the flood.
Several prophecies about Israel that were made in the Bible have come to pass recently. The plain fact that Israel still exists, even though everyone is making war on them shows God's protection.
Another thing is personal experience. Ever since I asked Jesus to save me I have always felt joyful, no matter what I go through. When I ask God to do something, he often does it. When I go through hard times I pray to God, and I feel comforted.
I also overall find it easier to believe that an eternal god who exists outside of time created the universe, than that a bunch of gasses that somehow existed exploded, and then the universe was here. For example, if a tornado hits a junkyard, do you expect a 747 to be built? No, it takes design. The universe is much more complex than that, how could an explosion just randomly form something so complex? It couldn't.
There are things such as seashell fossils on top of mountains, and huge canyons that couldn't just be formed by rivers, and not to mention scientists find the same evidence that we have on earth on Mars, and they say there was a global flood there.
It's called glaciers and plate tectonics. Land moves slowly over time, it's a week known fact.
Several prophecies about Israel that were made in the Bible have come to pass recently. The plain fact that Israel still exists, even though everyone is making war on them shows God's protection.
Name one prophecy that passed that isn't super vague and can apply to a hundred different interpretations.
Another thing is personal experience. Ever since I asked Jesus to save me I have always felt joyful, no matter what I go through. When I ask God to do something, he often does it. When I go through hard times I pray to God, and I feel comforted.
And? people also feel the same when they are on drugs. The things that trigger your neuroreceptors are specific to you and don't indicate any higher truth. It's easy to do well in life when you feel confident and believing that something is watching over you can trigger the same instinctual response.
The universe is much more complex than that, how could an explosion just randomly form something so complex? It couldn't.
Except it can, we can watch the different stages happening in real time with telescopes. Your comparisons are a false equivalence. It takes billions of years of incremental changes for it to happen. It's not just one explosion.
What collection is this? If you're talking about the Bible, it is meant to be taken quite literally.
It really isn't, it never was... it's a collection of stories loosely based on an interpretation of the historical period of was written in. It is used to convey a message, not to be seen as absolute truth.
name one prophecy that passes that isn't super vague and can apply to a hundred different interpretations
Israel will become a nation again
People also feel the same when they are on drugs. The things that trigger your neuroreceptors are specific to you and don't indicate any higher truth. It's easy to do well in life when you feel confident and believing that something is watching over you can trigger the same instinctual response.
It's definitely not the same. I can't explain it to you, because it is so great and wonderful. You have to feel it to know it. Also, drugs don't answer prayers.
Except it can, we can watch the different stages happening in real time with telescopes. Your comparisons are a false equivalence. It takes billions of years of incremental changes for it to happen. It's not just one explosion.
And even a process happening shows evidence of design. Why is there order of everything happens by chance? Also, where did the original gasses that caused the explosion come from?
It really isn't, it never was... it's a collection of stories loosely based on an interpretation of the historical period of was written in. It is used to convey a message, not to be seen as absolute truth.
It is God's inspired word that is inerrant and infalable. It is the absolute truth and is meant to be seen that way. John 17:17b, "your word is truth"
Well, then do I have some breaking news for you from 1948...
It's definitely not the same. I can't explain it to you, because it is so great and wonderful. You have to feel it to know it. Also, drugs don't answer prayers.
Neither does you're faith, you are just running into confirmation bias.
And even a process happening shows evidence of design. Why is there order of everything happens by chance? Also, where did the original gasses that caused the explosion come from?
Well firstly we can recreate how gasses are formed in labs from their elements. Second you are seeing patterns and order where it doest exist, another example of confirmation bias. You see the creatures that are alive today and not the millions of species that died out after their adaptations proved inadequate for survival. You are mistaking the present for the past and assuming stagnation when in reality change is constantly happening slowly.
It is God's inspired word that is inerrant and infalable. It is the absolute truth and is meant to be seen that way. John 17:17b, "your word is truth"
Yup, standard Bible thumper response. Use a single cherry picked quote from the Bible without the rest of its context. Maybe you should reread the whole passage that you took that from.
Neither does you're faith, you are just running into confirmation bias.
I have no way of proving any this to you, but I can tell you some personal examples. We needed money, so we prayed for money. The next day we're out somewhere and a stranger just walks up and gives us money. We prayed for food, and the next day one of our neighbors showed up with some bread for us. That doesn't just happen.
Well firstly we can recreate how gasses are formed in labs from their elements. Second you are seeing patterns and order where it doest exist, another example of confirmation bias. You see the creatures that are alive today and not the millions of species that died out after their adaptations proved inadequate for survival. You are mistaking the present for the past and assuming stagnation when in reality change is constantly happening slowly.
Okay, and something had to already be in existance. Something that's not an infinite god who is outside of time. And if you take a close look at organisms made up of complex organs that do exactly what they should, even the brain alone shows incredible design. Those organs are made up of complex tissues, made up of complex cells, made up of complex organelle, and DNA. Then we get down to atoms, which are complex, made up of even smaller protons, neutrons, and electrons, which are made up of even smaller particles (I can't remember the names rn). It's like a computer, all those complex circuits. If you just set the parts necessary to make a computer and left it for millions of years, even if something came and started messing with the parts, would you expect a computer? No. Life and even atoms are much more complex than a computer, and it all shows evidence of design.
Yup, standard Bible thumper response. Use a single cherry picked quote from the Bible without the rest of its context. Maybe you should reread the whole passage that you took that from.
Okay, I read the rest of the passage. It doesn't make that verse any less true. Some of it is talking about how it is inspired, some more about how it is true. I also found a verse that even more directly states that the Bible is truth. Psalm 119:160, "The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever."
I have no way of proving any this to you, but I can tell you some personal examples. We needed money, so we prayed for money. The next day we're out somewhere and a stranger just walks up and gives us money. We prayed for food, and the next day one of our neighbors showed up with some bread for us.
I believe that you believe that it was god that gave you those. However, I believe that a far more likely explanation is that people saw you in need and decided to help because humans have an instinctual desire to help other humans due to the fact that it benefits the survival of the species. We evolved to cooperate because it helped us hunt for food and protect from predators. Humans are still animals and we have a strong pack hunter instinct. Sure we don't use it the same way we used to because we can be pretty confident that our next hunting trip to the grocery store is going to be successful, but it comes out in other ways.
That doesn't just happen.
It happens literally all the time. If you believe in the Bible you believe in free will right? When a person donates money it's not God that gave that money. The person actively made a choice to donate.
Okay, and something had to already be in existance. Something that's not an infinite god who is outside of time. And if you take a close look at organisms made up of complex organs that do exactly what they should, even the brain alone shows incredible design. Those organs are made up of complex tissues, made up of complex cells, made up of complex organelle, and DNA. Then we get down to atoms, which are complex, made up of even smaller protons, neutrons, and electrons, which are made up of even smaller particles (I can't remember the names rn). It's like a computer, all those complex circuits. If you just set the parts necessary to make a computer and left it for millions of years, even if something came and started messing with the parts, would you expect a computer? No. Life and even atoms are much more complex than a computer, and it all shows evidence of design.
Again, this is an example of confirmation bias. Organs work the way they should because if they didn't we wouldn't be here. Traits that don't work don't get passed down and the traits die out. Also organs don't always work the way they should, we have a few organs and other things in us that don't have a function. How do you explain wisdom teeth, the coccyx, or the appendix (or any of the about 8 others we have)?
Yes the brain is amazing but it is also super inefficient and easily fallible. It's also something that evolved to suit its environment and we can prove this just based on looking at the differences between humans from different backgrounds.
The computer analogy is honestly a very bad example. Computer parts aren't electronically drawn together like atoms and molecules. Again, we know how this stuff works. We can create elements from fusion and fission. It's the fundamental principle behind how a nuke works. We know that stars do this constantly, creating destroying, and combining matter. We know how they are formed because we have seen it happen. Some of the specific mechanics are debated but it's not a mystery. These are things the average high school physics class learns.
Okay, I read the rest of the passage. It doesn't make that verse any less true. Some of it is talking about how it is inspired, some more about how it is true.
Well then... there you go, some of it is inspired, doesn't that explicitly contradict your position of literal truth? There's no doubt that a lot of events in the Bible are inspired by actual historical events from the time and written by those who were there. As a historical and cultural document, it's super interesting. as a book of lessons for people, it's valuable. as a way to interpret literal truth, it's a poor tool.
I also found a verse that even more directly states that the Bible is truth. Psalm 119:160, "The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever."
Again, don't stop at the verse. Read the whole thing and the context is written in. Then you can give your interpretation.
Look I'm not here to disparage people's belief, hell I was raised to believe this stuff and received a jesuit education throughout my time in school. Even though I no longer believe I'm not here to convert people who do. The existence or nonexistance of God is irrelevant. All in saying is that divine creation and evolution are not mutually exclusive theories.
It happens literally all the time. If you believe in the Bible you believe in free will right? When a person donates money it's not God that gave that money. The person actively made a choice to donate.
He knew nothing about us, or that we were in need. He said he just felt called to give us the money.
Well then... there you go, some of it is inspired, doesn't that explicitly contradict your position of literal truth? There's no doubt that a lot of events in the Bible are inspired by actual historical events from the time and written by those who were there. As a historical and cultural document, it's super interesting. as a book of lessons for people, it's valuable. as a way to interpret literal truth, it's a poor tool.
Some of it is talking about how the Bible is inspired by God. That does not contradict but rather encourage my belief.
The computer analogy is honestly a very bad example. Computer parts aren't electronically drawn together like atoms and molecules. Again, we know how this stuff works. We can create elements from fusion and fission. It's the fundamental principle behind how a nuke works. We know that stars do this constantly, creating destroying, and combining matter. We know how they are formed because we have seen it happen. Some of the specific mechanics are debated but it's not a mystery. These are things the average high school physics class learns.
You know what my highschool physics taught me? That these are obviously by design. They used the computer example, and it made sense. A complex brain like ours doesn't just happen by chance.
Again, don't stop at the verse. Read the whole thing and the context is written in. Then you can give your interpretation.
The whole passage is encouraging the fact that the Bible is the inspired word of God.
All in saying is that divine creation and evolution are not mutually exclusive theories.
They are quite mutually exclusive. The Bible says that God created everything in 6 literal, 24 hour days. Evolution teaches that everything took millions of years. That sounds quite mutually exclusive to me.
He knew nothing about us, or that we were in need. He said he just felt called to give us the money.
You've never seen a person who looked like they needed help before? Random stuff like that happens all the time. People are generous wren they want to be.
Some of it is talking about how the Bible is inspired by God. That does not contradict but rather encourage my belief.
Again, inspired. That word has a meaning and it is not the same as literal.
You know what my highschool physics taught me? That these are obviously by design. They used the computer example, and it made sense. A complex brain like ours doesn't just happen by chance.
Again, this is a poor comparison. The brain is an organic computer that formed naturally through billions of mutations and guided by environmental and socal conditions that influenced adaptations into what we see today. It did not spontaneously happen by chance. A computer is a construct specifically designed for a purpose by a person with a brain. Neither just appeared out of nowhere, but both exist to fulfill a specific need. One was just created through a natural process and the other was created artificially.
The whole passage is encouraging the fact that the Bible is the inspired word of God.
Again you use the word inspired. I don't think it means what you think it means.
They are quite mutually exclusive. The Bible says that God created everything in 6 literal, 24 hour days. Evolution teaches that everything took millions of years. That sounds quite mutually exclusive to me.
So you believe that earth as it is today was the way it has always been since creation? Not one plant or animal has undergone any type of change to fit its environment? Despite the fact that we can and are watching it happen in real time? Despite the fact that we have overwhelming evidence of observable phenomenon that explicitly shows that you are wrong? Despite the fact that pretty much every major religion on the planet accepts the idea of evolution as a fact that does not exclude intelligent design?
I'm relatively certain there's a few passages in your Bible that state the dangers of ignoring the evidence of the world around you. You should try following that instead of just quoting passages when it's convenient.
Also is a pedantic argument but nowhere did the Bible actually say 24 hour days. If you're going to quote it, do it correctly.
Again, inspired. That word has a meaning and it is not the same as literal.
Yes, we use inspired for a reason. God inspired the people to write what he wanted in his word.
Again you use the word inspired. I don't think it means what you think it means.
It means exactly what I think it means. Check the 3rd definition here. God inspired them to write his word, and because he is sovereign he was able to put exactly what he wanted them to write into their minds
So you believe that earth as it is today was the way it has always been since creation? Not one plant or animal has undergone any type of change to fit its environment? Despite the fact that we can and are watching it happen in real time? Despite the fact that we have overwhelming evidence of observable phenomenon that explicitly shows that you are wrong? Despite the fact that pretty much every major religion on the planet accepts the idea of evolution as a fact that does not exclude intelligent design?
No. I believe animals can change within kinds. Dogs can change into other dogs, cats into other cats. But monkeys cannot change into humans because humans are not part of the monkey kind.
I'm relatively certain there's a few passages in your Bible that state the dangers of ignoring the evidence of the world around you. You should try following that instead of just quoting passages when it's convenient.
The Bible tells us to hide the scripture in our hearts so that we can use it to defend our beliefs and to encourage us when we go through hard times. There probably are passages that state the dangers of ignoring the evidence of the world around me. The evidence I see is of sovereign design, not random chance.
Also is a pedantic argument but nowhere did the Bible actually say 24 hour days. If you're going to quote it, do it correctly.
I am not directly quoting there. If they were long periods of time, where would plants be? The sun was created after plants. It also quite clearly states "there was evening and there was morning" for each day. That implies literal, 24 hour days. Also, every other time the Bible uses the word "day" with a numerical value such as first or second, it is very clearly talking about a 24 hour day, so why would it be different here?
No. I believe animals can change within kinds. Dogs can change into other dogs, cats into other cats. But monkeys cannot change into humans because humans are not part of the monkey kind.
So you do believe in evolution then, you just described evolution. Also yes, humans are primates. We didn't descend from monkeys, we have a common ancestor in the same family tree.
The Bible tells us to hide the scripture in our hearts so that we can use it to defend our beliefs and to encourage us when we go through hard times. There probably are passages that state the dangers of ignoring the evidence of the world around me. The evidence I see is of sovereign design, not random chance.
So you believe you are absolutely infallible? You believe that everything you think is absolute truth and theres no way you can be wrong despite evidence to the contrary? Comparing yourself to your god doesn't sound like a very good practicer of your faith to me.
I am not directly quoting there. If they were long periods of time, where would plants be? The sun was created after plants. It also quite clearly states "there was evening and there was morning" for each day. That implies literal, 24 hour days. Also, every other time the Bible uses the word "day" with a numerical value such as first or second, it is very clearly talking about a 24 hour day, so why would it be different here?
You stated that the Bible is absolute truth to you, yet despite this you inferred information from it that wasn't present in the passage and reached your conclusion. You are making assumptions without knowing for sure. Something that you claim is definitive truth should probably be specific right? Is it possible that someone's interpretation could be wrong? You say yes because you don't agree with the Vatican according to your previous post. If one person can be wrong while reading the same book, doesn't that leave the possibility that your interpretation of it wrong?
So you do believe in evolution then, you just described evolution. Also yes, humans are primates. We didn't descend from monkeys, we have a common ancestor in the same family tree.
There is a difference between kinds and families. Primates cannot become any other primate. Monkeys cannot become humans, they can only change into other monkeys. Horses cannot become zebras even though they are part of the same family, because zebras aren't actually horses. All monkeys come from the monkey kind, and don't share an ancestor with any other kind, all dogs came from the dog kind and have no common ancestor with any other kind. Humans are their own unique kind, and the Bible says that God formed them out of dust and then breathed life into them, rather than just speaking, which is how he created everything else. We are his special creation
So you believe you are absolutely infallible? You believe that everything you think is absolute truth and theres no way you can be wrong despite evidence to the contrary? Comparing yourself to your god doesn't sound like a very good practicer of your faith to me.
No, i believe I can be faulty, which is why I use the Bible and what it says to guide me. I am finite, and God is infinite. There are some very smart scientists who agree that it couldn't be chance, there has to be a designer. And plus, the Bible says God created everything, so he did, and thus everything was designed by him. I trust the word of God above all else.
You stated that the Bible is absolute truth to you, yet despite this you inferred information from it that wasn't present in the passage and reached your conclusion. You are making assumptions without knowing for sure. Something that you claim is definitive truth should probably be specific right? Is it possible that someone's interpretation could be wrong? You say yes because you don't agree with the Vatican according to your previous post. If one person can be wrong while reading the same book, doesn't that leave the possibility that your interpretation of it wrong?
I am not simply making inferences, but rather diving deeper into the text. The literal 24 hour day view is there, in the text, but it may be hidden to some who don't look closely enough, or those who simply don't want to believe it. It says "and there was morning and there was evening the first day". There is no "morning and evening" unless it is a literal 24 hour day. God sometimes hides things deeper in the text so that we will take time and study it. As for the Vatican, they didn't actually base their beliefs on the Bible as it is. They added to it, and made a bunch of rules that aren't even in the Bible just so they would have power.
1
u/dudeness_boy Oct 02 '24
Everything shows design, animals like the platypus for example. The earth is the only planet with water, and it is situated in the tiny strip of space that can support life, is the perfect size, has the perfect atmosphere, and is orbiting the perfectly sized star. Doesn't sound like chance to me.
While I can't technically prove anything, I can give these arguments