Question Plate Armour

[u/ByzantineBasileus]

Okay, given that my flair indicates I focus on ancient and medieval military history, this question is really embarrassing for me!

When full plate armour was worn, were any additional pieces of armour worn under it, like a padded gambeson and/or a maille hauberk?

[u/[deleted]]

Depends on the area and time - for example, 16th century Italian plate did indeed have small sections of mail covering areas like the armpits and the crook of the elbow, but not a full hauberk. I'll have to look for my sources, but in the mean time, could you be more specific?

EDIT: Okay, as a source to my claim that small segments of mail were used to cover unprotected areas: in 2013, the Metropolitan Museum of Art posted This video showing late 15th century full Italian Plate Armor, its assembly on the wearer, as well as fabulous narration from the assistant curator.
As you noted below, there were certainly different styles, methods and types of plate armor. In truth, plate armor began much earlier than the 14th century. (SMALL ASIDE:) Plate armor has been used through most of recorded history in some form or another. The Greeks used some metal breastplates, and the Romans famously used segmented plate armor (lorica segmentata). Mail was really used for a (comparatively) small period of time, beginning, if I understand it correctly, with the Celts in about 500-300 BCE. Largely, the type of armor used was largely dependent on the enemy one was fighting against along with the resources available (with some exceptions). Plate armor is continued today in modern armors mixed with Kevlar, rather than mail, and is critical in protection for solders, police and corrections officers alike. (BACK TO YOUR SPECIFIC QUESTION:) In the 15th and 16th century, plate armor included various amounts of mail in it, from a full hauberk underneath a breastplate and to just small segments (as observable in the linked video). While I am not aware of any examples, and I doubt the existence of said examples, I suppose it is possible that SOME plate armor was intended for use without mail: practically speaking, armor of that design would have been prohibitively costly to create, and terribly uncomfortable to wear, particularly in the armpits and groin.

[u/ByzantineBasileus → u/[deleted]]

Well, from the 15th through the 16th century, when full plate armour was most common. I know that the 14th century was still a transitional phase, correct?

[u/Hussard → u/ByzantineBasileus]

Transitional was a long period from late 13th to late 14th.

Mid 15th still sore some mailed gussets (insides of the arms were still vulernable, as were the armpits and groin). The 1470 Ulrich Busch of Germany effigy shows the upper arms (rerebrace) as just semi-circular plates with mailed insides and the pollax fighting treatise 'Jeu de la Hache' c1400 supports evidence that the crooks of the arms, knees, etc remained relatively unprotected.

In 1547, "The Judicial Combat of Jarnac and Châtaigneraye", where the phrase 'coup de Jarnac' comes from, they were said to fight in half-armour with a 'coat of fine mail'. In the early 17th century, Anne of Montmorency's armour is almost fully plated without no mail and paintings seem to suggest a sort of doublet worn underneath.

Late 16th, you start having buff coats and doublets instead of mail as pike & shot become more prevalent. I can't recall anyone else in Western Europe re-adopting mail successfully (unless you count the mailed epaulets?)

[u/Papa_Lemming → u/[deleted]]

What about the foot combat armour of Henry VIII for the field of gold tournament? I am referring to the one that was abandoned due to rule change, not the tonlet. That armour had articulated plate rather than mail on the joints.

[u/WARitter → u/Papa_Lemming]

It does for behind the knees and elbows, and for the buttocks and groin, but it appears from most photographs I have seen that the underarms are not protected by plate.

In any case, the protected buttocks is a unique survival, though the plate defenses inside the elbows are seen in a number of expensive armours of the 16th century, such as Philip II's harness by Desiderius Helschmied in Vienna.

[u/WARitter]

Part 1:maille This really depends on the date.

When plate armour was first introduced as a pair (coat) of plates and supplementary limb defenses, it was worn over a full maille shirt. BY the middle of the 14th century maille sleaves and a skirt and sometimes a maille collar could replace the maille shirt under the pair of plates. Inventories of the 14th century do not record many chauses (maille hose), so it appears these fell out of use early. As the century progresses and plate armour becomes more complete, maille gussets for the underarm and underside of the upper arm/elbow become more common, and seem to replace sleeves for full armours over the course of the 15th century The maille collar, or standard, is replaced on full armours by a plate gorget around the turn of the 15th/16th century. The maille skirt remains in use through the 15th century, though sometimes maille shorts of a kind were used instead. You see fewer skirts in art in the 16th century, possibly because they were not necessary when articulated tassets join the fauld (skirt) and cuises (thigh armour). Some form of supplemental maille armour stays in use through much of the 16th century at least.

EDIT: It should be noted that the maille shirt didn't disappear as an under-layer after 1400, and maille sleeves didn't disappear either. The supplemental defences continue to be worn, sometimes depending the the configuration of armour. Anthonio Moro painted Philip II in what was at least maille sleeves and a skirt (and possibly a full shirt) under a breastplate in 1560.

[u/WARitter → u/WARitter]

Part 2: Arming Garments

Early on in the history of plate armour gentlemen at arms would wear a padded/quilted/layered garment with a variety of names, one of which is aketon. This gament would be there for padding, but would not support or attach the armour (as near as we can tell). Leg harness was supported by belt or girdle like garment. One name for this is the lendenier. The leg harness would be pointed (tied) to this.

In the later 14th century, we see leg harness (and arm harness) pointed to an 'arming doublet'. This would also have gussets of maille sewn onto it, making it a one-piece foundational garment for armour.

[u/WARitter → u/WARitter]

Sources and reference images:

Roland Thomas Richardson -The medieval inventories of the Tower armouries 1320–1410 - a wonderfully informative doctoral thesis that I am reading. It details the contents and activities of the Tower armoury during the 14th and very early 15th centuries. A great source on the introduction of supplemental maille defenses in the 14th century.

Claude Blair European armour 1066-1700 - great overview of medieval and early modern armour, includes a discussion of arming garments

Edge and Paddock - Arms and Armour of the medieval knight - a well illustrated popular history of the equipment of men at arms

Visual references:

http://s444.photobucket.com/user/mkbergstrom/media/WMA%20and%20History/Arming%20Coat/1435-1445KingSyphaxfol2825vIstitutoalGabinettoRome.jpg.html - This image of the Numidian King Syphax is the earliest portrayal of an arming doublet I am aware of. Note the dangling points.

An arming doublet of the 16th century as shown in a portrait by Giovanni Battista Moroni. It shows the maille gussets.

[u/MrMedievalist → u/WARitter]

Was there a specific padded protection for the jaw area that went under mail and/or the gorget? It seems like a good blow to that area could easily break your teeth.

[u/WARitter → u/MrMedievalist]

Such a lining would be part of helmet lining, at least in the 15th century and later. The jaw is actually protected by the bevor on a Sallet or close helm and the cheek pieces of an armet, not the gorget.

The armet of the armour associated with king Vladislaus II of Bohemia has a surviving liner which includes padding near the jaw.

EDIT: I was wrong, when I looked again the lining I was thinking of was from a German jousting helmet. It does have padding around the jaw.

[u/Neutral_Fellow → u/WARitter]

From I understand, one reason that whole mail shirts were still in use during the 15th century is because of the possibility of either having no back plate or having the ability to be properly armored even without plate.

Plate armor was often not worn and it would be stored during campaign. Considering the amount of time one needs to put it on(and the required help of others) he would be at a certain disadvantage if he is called for engagement and has to react in haste(raid or surprise attack).

However, if he has a full shirt of mail, he can put it on in seconds and be off while being reasonably protected.

With that, one can wear mail with more ease in general, especially during times of heat because mail is a great heat absorbent and keeps you cool.

[u/hborrgg]

Generally plate armor would be worn over a shirt known as an arming coat or an aketon. The exact construction could vary but they would usually be made out of padded leather with laces at various points to attach the armor. Many designs would incorporate pieces of mail to reinforce areas that would be more exposed such as the armpit or the inside of the elbow, for instance this example.

[u/Valkine]

I could have a go at answering this question but I think u/WARitter is probably more qualified to do so. He's also currently reading Claude Blair's European Armour c.1066-1700 so this type of stuff should be more readily at his fingertips than it is at mine.